gstreamer decoders
gstreamer decoders
Posted Jan 28, 2010 22:56 UTC (Thu) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877)In reply to: gstreamer decoders by DonDiego
Parent article: Blizzard: HTML5 video and H.264 - what history tells us and why we're standing with the web
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:51 PM
To: QandA
Subject: Free and Open Source implementations of MPEG-4 Visual?
Hello.
I read through the FAQ and can't find out if Free and Open Source
developers and products need to license the MPEG-LA patents for
MPEG-4 Visual. It was alleged (http://lwn.net/Articles/370985/)
in a comment that royalties are only necessary for products sold,
not for free products. Is this correct? Could you please comment
on the licensing options for Free (e.g. GPL) and open source
implementations of MPEG-4 Visual, specifically h.264? What about
downstream users/developers/distributors of Free and open source
software?
I'll post your reply to the above comment list when I've received it.
Thank you very much,
==========REPLY==========
Subject: RE: Free and Open Source implementations of MPEG-4 Visual?
Dear Joseph,
Thank you for your message. We appreciate you contacting MPEG LA
regarding our Licenses and I will be happy to assist you.
By way of background, I would like to point out that the Licenses
offered by MPEG LA are provided as a convenience and an alternative to
negotiating direct licenses with many individual patent owners. While
MPEG LA offers the Licenses to the marketplace, it is the patent owners
participating in our Licenses (not MPEG LA) who establish the License
terms and royalty rates.
Our MPEG-4 Visual Patent Portfolio License includes 29 patent owners
contributing more than 900 patents that are essential for use of the
MPEG-4 Visual (Part 2) Standard. Our AVC Patent Portfolio License
includes 25 patent owners contributing more than 1,000 patents that are
essential for use of AVC/H.264 Standard ("MPEG-4 Part 10").
Under the Licenses, coverage is provided and rights are granted for (a)
manufacturers to make and sell MPEG-4 Visual/AVC Products and (b) for
such MPEG-4 Visual/AVC Products to be used to deliver MPEG-4 Visual/AVC
Video content. The Licenses were set up this way so as to apportion the
royalty at points in the product/service chain where value is received,
and also to not place the full royalty burden on one party in the chain
(e.g., an encoder maker).
In response to your specific question, under the Licenses royalties are
paid on all MPEG-4 Visual/AVC products of like functionality, and the
Licenses do not make any distinction for products offered for free
(whether open source or otherwise). But, I do note that the Licenses
addresses this issue by including annual minimum thresholds below which
no royalties are payable in order to encourage adoption and minimize the
impact on lower volume users. In addition, the Licenses also include
maximum annual royalty caps to provide more cost predictability for
larger volume users.
I would also like to mention that while our Licenses are not concluded
by End Users, anyone in the product chain has liability if an end
product is unlicensed. Therefore, a royalty paid for an end product by
the end product supplier would render the product licensed in the hands
of the End User, but where a royalty has not been paid, such a product
remains unlicensed and any downstream users/distributors would have
liability.
Therefore, we suggest that all End Users deal with products only from
licensed suppliers. In that regard, we maintain lists of Licensees in
Good Standing to each of our Licenses at http://www.mpegla.com.
I hope this explanation is helpful. If you have further questions or
would like additional information, please feel free to contact me
directly.
Best regards,
Allen
Allen Harkness
Director, Global Licensing
MPEG LA
5425 Wisconsin Avenue
Suite 801
Chevy Chase, MD 20815
U.S.A.
Tel: (+1)-301-986-6660
Fax: (+1)-301-986-8575
Email: aharkness@mpegla.com
http://www.mpegla.com
(Log in to post comments)
gstreamer decoders
Posted Jan 28, 2010 23:04 UTC (Thu) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]
187. Fluendo S.A.
281. Google Inc.
I don't see ffmpeg as a licensor.
gstreamer decoders
Posted Jan 29, 2010 7:53 UTC (Fri) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]
gstreamer decoders
Posted Jan 29, 2010 14:45 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]
gstreamer decoders
Posted Jan 30, 2010 2:38 UTC (Sat) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]
==========MY REPLY==========
Allen,
Thank you for the information. I think I grok, but I do have two
questions:
From Allen Harkness on Thursday, 28 January, 2010:
>In response to your specific question, under the Licenses royalties are
>paid on all MPEG-4 Visual/AVC products of like functionality, and the
>Licenses do not make any distinction for products offered for free
>(whether open source or otherwise). But, I do note that the Licenses
>addresses this issue by including annual minimum thresholds below which
>no royalties are payable in order to encourage adoption and minimize the
>impact on lower volume users. In addition, the Licenses also include
What are these thresholds? Ideally, I'd like numbers, but information
on whether it's monetary or downloads is more than I have now.
>maximum annual royalty caps to provide more cost predictability for
>larger volume users.
How does this work in an open source or Free software setup, where
the source code is modifiable and re-distributable? Are downloads
from the licensee only covered?
Two scenarios come to mind:
1) A corporation has a customized (i.e. modified) build of Google's
Chrome (which includes an implmentation of ffmpeg), and then
re-distributes this modified binary to all of the workstations at
the company. Is this covered by Google's license?
2) A corporation downloads one copy of Chrome from Google, and redistributes
these internally to its workstations. Is this covered by Google's license?
3) Same scenarios as above, but for a home user distributing to others.
Thanks!
-Joseph
==========END REPLY==========
I've not received an answer to date. I'll post if they respond back.
Also, I'd like to take this moment to thank Fluendo for providing a licensed method. I hate software patents, particularly for what are otherwise open standards. Maybe we need patentleft to kick things off? It is, after all, another license in the end.
Finally, I'll also go ahead and say that all my videos that I have control over are Theora. :)
gstreamer decoders
Posted Jan 31, 2010 11:55 UTC (Sun) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link]
> licensed method.
A company is thanked for providing proprietary software. This must be a precedent on lwn.net. Anyway, you could have said that you don't care about free software right at the start. That would have saved us going back and forth about the finer points.
gstreamer decoders
Posted Jan 31, 2010 13:21 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
the hope they'd wake up and say 'ffmpeg? what's that? stop, now!', I think
his not caring about free software goes without saying. Or, rather, given
a choice between free software and his being right, his being right would
come first every time.
(apologies for sexist phrasing, but this particular odious characteristic
is in my experience restricted to males. Generally young ones.)
gstreamer decoders
Posted Jan 31, 2010 20:37 UTC (Sun) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]
the hope they'd wake up and say 'ffmpeg? what's that? stop, now!', I think
his not caring about free software goes without saying."
It wasn't poking with a stick, your assumptions about my motivation are completely off the mark, and your conclusion based on the above is also completely wrong. Fortunately, I don't have to prove myself to random jerks on the Internet.
"Or, rather, given a choice between free software and his being right, his being right would come first every time."
Also incorrect. Not surprising. I think your own prejudices color your perceptions here.
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 1, 2010 0:45 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
been ignored by the MPEG LA because they were beneath their notice had
proven correct, your own actions would have done nothing less than bring
another patent attack on free software. Well done.
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 1, 2010 1:09 UTC (Mon) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]
"
Posted Jan 26, 2010 21:32 UTC (Tue) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]
I guess they're not important enough to be sued by MPEG-LA.
"
All I did was ask for clarification on their FAQ. At worst, I hastened the inevitable by some unknowable quantity. At best, my email has helped show better where the licensing necessities are.
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 1, 2010 1:14 UTC (Mon) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 4, 2010 0:30 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
under those circumstances. (Sanity is hard enough to maintain.)
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 1, 2010 16:04 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]
I don't see a downside to getting everything into the open. It might mean some short term difficulty for the ffmpeg project (difficulty that I'm sure they're expecting anyway), but it means long-term stability for everybody.
Nice work Trelane. You're doing this for all of us. Thanks!
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 1, 2010 16:36 UTC (Mon) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]
It's also the start of a dialog, if they choose to go there. I'd be willing to talk with them about Free Software and patents and direct them at more knowledgeable people. Let's try to keep this positive!
legal trouble
Posted Feb 2, 2010 15:29 UTC (Tue) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link]
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 4, 2010 1:14 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
has to religion: that is, none to speak of.
gstreamer decoders
Posted Jan 31, 2010 23:25 UTC (Sun) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link]
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 1, 2010 0:52 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
MPEG LA not to know about it. But *if* the supposition (bandied about by
several here including IIRC Trelane) were true that ffmpeg had been
ignored because it was too ignorable or not a revenue generator or
something, then Trelane had just poked a dragon (or at least a troll) with
a stick. This is generally considered a bad idea, even if it turns out
that the dragon knows who you are and doesn't want to eat you today.
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 1, 2010 19:45 UTC (Mon) by rawler (guest, #60308) [Link]
ffmpeg for patent-reasons would be pretty much poking not the bear, but the
bee-hive of pissed of techno-geeks everywhere.
As the mail states, there are intentional exceptions for low-volume (in
business speak, roughly the same as low-income) "in order to encourage
adoption". I would assume that for peace:s sake, MPEG LA is avoiding
confrontation to much provide the patent opposition with too much fuel for
their fire, and further de-rail wide-spread adoption.
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 1, 2010 14:38 UTC (Mon) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]
>is in my experience restricted to males. Generally young ones.)
I think this kind of comment is highly out of place on LWN.
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 4, 2010 1:12 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
once.
gstreamer decoders
Posted Jan 31, 2010 20:41 UTC (Sun) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]
Nice troll. You almost had me going there.
gstreamer decoders
Posted Jan 31, 2010 23:23 UTC (Sun) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link]
If you thank Fluendo for providing you with "legally licensed" proprietary software, then you should build a throne for Google, which is providing you with "legally licensed" free software, don't you think?
Do you also thank Adobe for "legally licensed" Flash and Microsoft for "legally licensed" Windows 7? They all come with an MPEG LA license..
gstreamer decoders
Posted Jan 31, 2010 23:36 UTC (Sun) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]
I also buy Codeweavers Crossover Office because they help Wine to a great degree.
"Do you also thank Adobe for "legally licensed" Flash"
I thank them for having a Linux plugin. I don't like Flash over Free, patent-free standards, though. (See also the "I produce Theora content") I'm doing my part to keep us viable now (Fluendo and their plugin work) and in the future (Fluendo's Free software, Theora/Xiph, and my FSF membership).
and Microsoft for "legally licensed" Windows 7?"
If I ran Windows, I'd thank them for licensing the codec.
You do nobody any favors when your patent protection plan is the equivalent of burying your head in the sand, putting your fingers in your ears and saying "There ain't no patent threat" three times fast. You counter it by helping establish Free, patent-free standards and filling the gap until we get to that point.
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 1, 2010 14:26 UTC (Mon) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link]
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 1, 2010 15:34 UTC (Mon) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]
From poking around in wikipedia and talking to GStreamer people, this isn't entirely accurate, although it's not entirely inaccurate either. My information was apparently out of date.
"Why you would thank them for offering products for sale to you is beyond me, but hey..."
Had you stopped prior to this sentence, this would have been a helpful and informative post. This sentence took that work and overshadowed it by jerkishness.
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 2, 2010 15:41 UTC (Tue) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link]
> > contributions to gstreamer years ago. They are a common and
> > garden-variety proprietary software shop now."
> From poking around in wikipedia and talking to GStreamer people, this
> isn't entirely accurate, although it's not entirely inaccurate either.
> My information was apparently out of date.
I got the information from Edward Hervey who works on gstreamer (and for Collabora, the company that funds gstreamer development nowadays) and hangs around in the #ffmpeg-devel IRC channel. Just look at the gstreamer commit graph of thomasvs, who works for Fluendo and commented in this discussion before:
http://www.ohloh.net/accounts/thomasvs
http://www.ohloh.net/p/gstreamer/contributors/14925011355589
> > Why you would thank them for offering products for sale to you is
> > beyond me, but hey..."
> Had you stopped prior to this sentence, this would have been a helpful
> and informative post. This sentence took that work and overshadowed it
> by jerkishness.
You're not exactly a role model either, but the remark was dead serious. I never felt like thanking a supermarket for offering me goods for sale. Why would you thank any company for offering you their goods?
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 2, 2010 16:35 UTC (Tue) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]
"Why would you thank any company for offering you their goods?"
If it was the only place or one of the few places to get it legally, I'd be pretty grateful for it. Perhaps that's what you're not comprehending. Maybe we're just different people and see things differently, eh?
Fluendo vs. FFmpeg
Posted Feb 3, 2010 1:40 UTC (Wed) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link]
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 1, 2010 20:06 UTC (Mon) by rawler (guest, #60308) [Link]
> on whether it's monetary or downloads is more than I have now.
From http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/avc/Documents/AVC_Ter...
"royalties (beginning January 1, 2005) per legal entity are 0 - 100,000
units per year = no royalty"
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 2, 2010 2:08 UTC (Tue) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 1, 2010 0:37 UTC (Mon) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link]
What I'm saying is that only corporations with deep pockets in certain parts of the world need to worry at all. You seem convinced that you are such an entity. Very well, good luck with your HTML 5 efforts. I don't care what browser makes my life without Flash more bearable, but I'm certainly willing to switch browsers to enjoy the privilege.
Then again, I'm convinced that you will punt and use system infrastructure to decode video in the medium-term future. Hopefully you will manage without hurting your market share too much...
gstreamer decoders
Posted Jan 29, 2010 8:09 UTC (Fri) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]
http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/AVC/Pages/Licensees.aspx
gstreamer decoders
Posted Jan 30, 2010 12:34 UTC (Sat) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link]
gstreamer decoders
Posted Jan 31, 2010 5:09 UTC (Sun) by luya (subscriber, #50741) [Link]
End User use of H.264
Posted Jan 31, 2010 16:00 UTC (Sun) by jrincayc (guest, #29129) [Link]
End User use of H.264
Posted Feb 1, 2010 19:47 UTC (Mon) by jxself (guest, #63302) [Link]
End User use of H.264
Posted Feb 3, 2010 8:38 UTC (Wed) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link]
End User use of H.264
Posted Mar 29, 2010 17:43 UTC (Mon) by jxself (guest, #63302) [Link]
I'm glad that I tried. If they're now saying that end users can be held responsible, I will keep these signed licenses (and the entire email chain) in my records. In the event that I am sued my plan is to pull these out and say, "look -- I tried to get licensed -- they refused" and go on about how it doesn't seem quite right to refuse to license to me while also suing me for not being licensed. Anyway, here's the relevant snippet from the email.
"Although our Licenses do not directly provide coverage for an end user and anyone in the product chain may be held responsible for an unlicensed product, a royalty paid for an end product by the end product supplier would render the product licensed in the hands of the end user. Therefore, the end user would not normally pay a royalty to MPEG LA for using such a product, but where a royalty has not been paid, such product is unlicensed.
In this case, as you appear to be the end user, we suggest that you choose a player from a licensed supplier. In that regard, we maintain lists of Licensees in Good Standing to each of our Licenses in the corresponding sections of our website http://www.mpegla.com.
Finally, please note that since you will not benefit from coverage under the Licenses, we will not execute the signed Licenses that you have returned to us."
End User use of H.264
Posted Feb 1, 2010 20:02 UTC (Mon) by rawler (guest, #60308) [Link]
"low volume threshold" of 100.000 units, so it would be interesting to see
if there are any hidden fixed costs. Please post if you do decide to try it.
If nothing else, if someone wants to break the system, a suggestion on
Slashdot for each and every Open-Source user to do so (nomatter whether it
will be granted or not), would probably give them a very tough week in their
sales department. ;)
gstreamer decoders
Posted Feb 4, 2010 23:36 UTC (Thu) by PaulWay (subscriber, #45600) [Link]
> contributing more than 900 patents that are essential for use of the
> MPEG-4 Visual (Part 2) Standard. Our AVC Patent Portfolio License
> includes 25 patent owners contributing more than 1,000 patents that are
> essential for use of AVC/H.264 Standard ("MPEG-4 Part 10").
My immediate question would be:
"Given that Microsoft and several other vendors have been hit for billions of dollars in patent infringements after they bought a license from MPEG-LA to use the MPEG-2 intellectual property, we will only buy a license from MPEG-LA if they guarantee that no intellectual property other than their own is infringed by the technology they're licensing, and they indemnify and promise to be liable for any lawsuit held against any company implementing the AVC/H.264 standard."
It's extremely hypocritical for MPEG LA and its members to cast aspersions on the possibility that Theora may be at risk of attack from submarine patents, and yet stand idly by while patent trolls attack companies that have licensed technology from MPEG LA. If you buy the license to implement the standard, you should be buying a license for <u>everything</u> that implements the standard. You shouldn't then be told "oh, sorry, you did it in this slightly different way, we don't cover that, hope you like paying lots of money to other patent trolls".
It just highlights the complete stupidity of trying to claim that ideas are property.
Microsoft MPEG-2 patent infringement lawsuit
Posted Feb 5, 2010 9:01 UTC (Fri) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link]
Microsoft MPEG-2 patent infringement lawsuit
Posted Feb 5, 2010 14:35 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]
