gstreamer decoders [LWN.net]

gstreamer decoders

Posted Jan 28, 2010 11:30 UTC (Thu) by thomasvs (guest, #36955)
In reply to: gstreamer decoders by DonDiego
Parent article: Blizzard: HTML5 video and H.264 - what history tells us and why we're standing with the web

"Fluendo also offers an alternative H.264 decoder that hooks into gstreamer. In exchange for money they take away your freedom. It's tasteless."

Why do we take away your freedom? Feel free not to buy our codecs. No one is forcing you to give us money. I don't see how offering an option for those people that want a legal properly licensed codec takes away freedom. It's hollow rhetoric.

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gstreamer decoders

Posted Jan 28, 2010 12:46 UTC (Thu) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (19 responses)

> > Fluendo also offers an alternative H.264 decoder that hooks into
> > gstreamer. In exchange for money they take away your freedom.
> > It's tasteless."

> Why do we take away your freedom? Feel free not to buy our codecs. No one
> is forcing you to give us money. I don't see how offering an option for
> those people that want a legal properly licensed codec takes away freedom.
> It's hollow rhetoric.

There you're doing it again. Insinuating that the only way to get a "legal properly licensed" codec is by forfeiting software freedom and giving you money. By corollary you're also saying that free software implementing those same codecs is somehow illegal and should be avoided in favor of your proprietary software. This is tasteless and insulting.

gstreamer decoders

Posted Feb 3, 2010 11:10 UTC (Wed) by thomasvs (guest, #36955) [Link] (18 responses)

I don't like exagerated rhetoric. In no way am I saying FFmpeg is illegal. Our reading of the GPL and LGPL, which are licenses governing the distribution of software, you need to give the same rights to your recipients as you have, and they need to be able to redistribute with the same rights as well.

In our reading this conflicts with the combination of patents and their usage license when they are volume-based instead of one-time fee. If I distribute the code, I'm not going to pay the end user license for everyone that gets my software; I don't even know how you would be able to track that.

In the case of mp3, since there was a one-time fee, we did exactly that.

Of course, this reasoning a) assumes that patents and patent licensing are legally valid (which for example is the case in the US) and b) is our (and our lawyer's) interpretation of the situation.

Diego, feel free to disagree with this; in the end what we saw is a practical situation (no distro feels legally safe to ship ffmpeg/xine/vlc/mplayer).

But don't blow up the discussion with insinuations that we think ffmpeg is illegal, or that we try to take away anyone's freedom. That's just intentionally polarizing the discussion. Your arguments are stronger when you don't put words in the mouth of the other.

gstreamer decoders

Posted Feb 3, 2010 13:37 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (3 responses)

If you are not restricted by the patent (e.g. never signed a deal with the
licensor, not subject court injunction), then you can
distribute just fine without compromising the free software licence on the
code. This is true regardless of whether or not the code is subject to patents,
for you are in the same position as the recipient, which is all the GPL licence
requires.

If you choose not to distribute a codec because you know it is patented, then
you do so because you are protecting *yourself* from legal risk - not because
the licence requires it. It is a misunderstanding to claim the licence is the
barrier, as you could happily distribute away and not violate any free software
licences, given the above.

I think the above may be what Don Diego is trying to communicate, and it fits
in with my understanding of the GPL and patent issues (IANAL, etc).

If you come to an agreement with the patent holder, then obviously you
must secure a blanket agreement that covers all your down stream users. If
the patent only applies in certain countries, then note that the GPL allows
code to be distributed with geographic exceptions set by the rights holder,
while (it seems, but am not certain) remaining GPL compatible.

The next question, which I think you or others in the Mozilla camp (and
perhaps the FSF?) have tried to raise is the question of whether patent
encumbered technologies should be resisted by promoting other, less
encumbered technologies. This is an interesting one, but it is implied per se
by licensing obstacles to distribution on the code.

gstreamer decoders

Posted Feb 3, 2010 13:46 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Last sentence makes little sense. Basically I meant that the idea of resisting
patented tech does not rest on there being any immediate licensing problems
with implementations of such software.

gstreamer decoders

Posted Feb 3, 2010 18:13 UTC (Wed) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (1 responses)

Patented software is indeed distributed all the time, just take Linux, Samba, Firefox as high-profile examples. Their license is not compromised by the fact that somebody somewhere claims some patent.

But you are not portraying my stance correctly, see my other posts for reference.

gstreamer decoders

Posted Feb 3, 2010 21:29 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Yes, I see my mistake. I thought originally you were referring to FFmpeg and
other unlicensed practitioners of patents distributing potentially patented
code.

Re the patent licence case, after digging relatively carefully through the GPL
v2 and v3 text to find the precise text that contradicts you, I find you may
well be right. I.e. I can no longer support this earlier paragraph of mine:

"If you come to an agreement with the patent holder, then obviously you
must secure a blanket agreement that covers all your down stream users. If
the patent only applies in certain countries, then note that the GPL allows
code to be distributed with geographic exceptions set by the rights holder,
while (it seems, but am not certain) remaining GPL compatible."

It seems the *actual* obligations imposed by the GPL do not go that far.
Rather it seems that, as you say, it only affects licensees who promise the
patent holder to try restrict those they distribute to. Which, it appears, is not
the case for the MPEG-LA agreement.

I'm starting to think you're right.

gstreamer decoders

Posted Feb 3, 2010 13:42 UTC (Wed) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (13 responses)

> Our reading of the GPL and LGPL, which are licenses governing the
> distribution of software, you need to give the same rights to your
> recipients as you have, and they need to be able to redistribute with
> the same rights as well.

False. You need to give recipients the same rights that you received when getting the software. You received FFmpeg as (L)GPL from us, you have to pass it along as (L)GPL again. The (L)GPL says nothing about a contract with the MPEG LA.

I'll give you another example: The original author has the right to publish the software under any license. This right is *not* passed along with GPL software. I could also sell you some FFmpeg code I wrote under a proprietary license. Then you have the right to use that code under said proprietary license, but you do *not* pass that right along when you redistribute FFmpeg. You have the right, but you need not pass it along, you are not even allowed to pass it along.

> in the end what we saw is a practical situation (no distro feels
> legally safe to ship ffmpeg/xine/vlc/mplayer).

FALSE !!!

Do you really believe what you were saying there? Just scroll up and read a bit of the discussion above or verify such statements before making them.

> But don't blow up the discussion with insinuations that we think
> ffmpeg is illegal, or that we try to take away anyone's freedom.

You profit from making people think that you are the only "legal" way to run multimedia software under Linux. Some people are easily scared and gullible and believe what you write. These people then run your proprietary software instead of free software to do the same job at least as good. These people are thus deprived from their software freedom and you have profited.

There is no way around these facts. If you were putting all the money you earn with that stuff into a big fund to sponsor free software or if you donated it, then fine, I would believe you. Or if there was a note in your shop that said "no private person has ever needed this, you can use free software X instead also". But you do no such thing.

Which is fine, be that way if you want, I would welcome you to act differently, but I do not condemn you. However, please be honest about what you do. You sell proprietary software like any other company and are in no way special.

> That's just intentionally polarizing the discussion. Your arguments
> are stronger when you don't put words in the mouth of the other.

I have heard "FFmpeg is illegal.", "Playing DVDs under Linux is illegal.", "Someone will end up in jail." more times than I can count. Just try to spend a day at an FFmpeg/MPlayer booth for a day during LinuxTag or some other event.

This discussion is already polarized and lopsided in one direction. I intend to balance the scales a bit by countering the FUD and anticipatory obedience that has become the hallmark of parts of our community.

gstreamer decoders

Posted Feb 3, 2010 14:38 UTC (Wed) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link] (12 responses)

> > Our reading of the GPL and LGPL, which are licenses governing the
> > distribution of software, you need to give the same rights to your
> > recipients as you have, and they need to be able to redistribute with
> > the same rights as well.

> False. You need to give recipients the same rights that you received when
> getting the software. You received FFmpeg as (L)GPL from us, you have to
> pass it along as (L)GPL again. The (L)GPL says nothing about a contract
> with the MPEG LA.

Actually the LGPL does if such contracts are about patent licenses (quotes from GPLv2.1, but other versions have similar obligations):

Finally, software patents pose a constant threat to the existence of any free program. We wish to make sure that a company cannot effectively restrict the users of a free program by obtaining a restrictive license from a patent holder. Therefore, we insist that any patent license obtained for a version of the library must be consistent with the full freedom of use specified in this license.
[...]
If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Library at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Library by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Library.

gstreamer decoders

Posted Feb 3, 2010 15:08 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Don Diego is talking about the case where you distribute GPLed code where
you have *no* agreement with any patent licensors. This is perfectly
acceptable, at least wrt the licence.

It is a fallacy to say that every distributor of GPLed software must ensure they
have blanket downstream licences to all potentially applicable patents. The only
thing refusing to distribute protects against is legal risk to the *distributor*, and
a lesser risk to the recipient from the *patent holder* - not the licensor of the
GPL software!

See also my other reply, an uncle of sorts to this one.

(L)GPL vs. patents

Posted Feb 3, 2010 15:28 UTC (Wed) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (10 responses)

> Actually the LGPL does if such contracts are about patent licenses
> (quotes from GPLv2.1, but other versions have similar obligations):

> Finally, software patents pose a constant threat [...]
> [.. continue quote from the preamble..]

This is from the preamble of the LGPL. As it has no effect on the license itself and is in no way legally binding, it is best ignored.

> If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your
> obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations,
> then as a consequence you may not distribute the Library at all. For
> example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free
> redistribution of the Library by all those who receive copies directly
> or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it
> and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the
> Library.

This just means that other contracts do not excuse you from the obligations of the LGPL. Any downstream recipient must continue to receive the full LGPL rights, the redistributor is not allowed to restrict them, no matter what other obligations say.

If somebody has a contract with the devil that claims a limb for each redistribution of FFmpeg then that person will quickly run out of limbs and then have a serious problem with the devil, but with nobody else.

Downstream recipients are not affected. They have no contract with the devil, they need not fear for their limbs, they just need to abide by the terms of the LGPL.

(L)GPL vs. patents

Posted Feb 3, 2010 15:48 UTC (Wed) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link] (6 responses)

> This is from the preamble of the LGPL. As it has no effect on the license itself and is in no way legally binding, it is best ignored.

Of course it is not smart to ignore the text of the license. The preamble makes clear what the intent is of the legal clauses. In case their is any doubt how to interpret a particular clause one looks at the intent to see that "any patent license obtained for a version of the library must be consistent with the full freedom of use".

> > if a patent license would not permit royalty-free
> > redistribution of the Library by all those who receive copies directly
> > or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it
> > and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the
> > Library.
>
> This just means that other contracts do not excuse you from the obligations of the LGPL. [...] Downstream recipients are not affected.

Yes, but it does affect the (re)distributor. If they get a patent license, then they have to make sure that it covers not only themselves, but also all the recipients of any copies of the library. You might think that is the problem of those who take out such a patent license, and that they would be foolish to get into a contract with something like the MPEG LA. (And you might be right about that.) But it is still a real problem for such companies that do.

(L)GPL vs. patents

Posted Feb 3, 2010 16:02 UTC (Wed) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (5 responses)

> > This is from the preamble of the LGPL. As it has no effect on the license itself and is in no way legally binding, it is best ignored.

>Of course it is not smart to ignore the text of the license. The preamble makes clear what the intent is of the legal clauses. In case their is any doubt how to interpret a particular clause one looks at the intent to see that "any patent license obtained for a version of the library must be consistent with the full freedom of use".

Sure? OK, let's try:

PREAMBLE

The book club is a non-profit, for-good, honest, no-nonsense organization that strives to bring its members peace, prosperity, happiness and easy access to their favorite books with absolutely no hooks attached

CONTRACT

666. (f) If you have read this far, we will now inform you that we will send you a few books per week at not exactly premium conditions. They will be a random choice of the old stuff we could not sell otherwise. You may not give them back and pay within three days.

Construct a slightly less contrived example if you wish, but still the fact remains: the preamble is not legally binding.

> > This just means that other contracts do not excuse you from the obligations of the LGPL. [...] Downstream recipients are not affected.

> Yes, but it does affect the (re)distributor. If they get a patent license, then they have to make sure that it covers not only themselves, but also all the recipients of any copies of the library.

No. BTW, the SFLC agrees with us.

(L)GPL vs. patents

Posted Feb 3, 2010 16:49 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (4 responses)

Can you provide a reference to SFLC's interpretation? I haven't
seen it

(L)GPL vs. patents

Posted Feb 3, 2010 17:53 UTC (Wed) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (3 responses)

I can see if I get something in writing, it's all from talks with one of our devs that also lives in New York so far.

Much more importantly, this is the official interpretation of FFmpeg. Since we are the copyright owners, our interpretation is the one that matters. We still need to put that in writing.

(L)GPL vs. patents

Posted Feb 4, 2010 16:00 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (2 responses)

If you want your claims to be taken seriously it needs to be in writing If
you are repeatedly going to refer to claims about SFLC's interpretation it
would be beneficial to get it in writing as well

(L)GPL vs. patents

Posted Feb 4, 2010 16:07 UTC (Thu) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (1 responses)

I am an FFmpeg copyright holder, so you already have a statement from me. We shall try to make something more official and put it on our website.

I would like you to provide me with the contrary interpretation in writing as well. You claim that the FSF has made statements to a different effect, but I never saw such a thing.

(L)GPL vs. patents

Posted Feb 4, 2010 16:27 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

Collectively a group making a statement is quite different from a single
copyright holder and I made no claims about FSF's interpretations You are
confusing me with someone else

(L)GPL vs. patents

Posted Feb 3, 2010 15:59 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (2 responses)

Are you saying that a patent licensor can continue to distribute a GPLed work
implementing that patent even when the licence is not passed on? That
doesn't seem to in concordance with the GPL.. Though I can't tell if you're
claiming that, or if you're just talking about the rights of the downstreams.

Where you seemed to be saying that non-licensees were unaffected (other
than risk from patent holder) and able to distribute just fine, I agree with you.

(L)GPL vs. patents

Posted Feb 3, 2010 15:59 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (1 responses)

a patent licen/see/. Grr.

(L)GPL vs. patents

Posted Feb 3, 2010 17:58 UTC (Wed) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link]

That's exactly what I'm saying. A patent licensee can continue distributing FFmpeg under the LGPL no matter what other side deals are in effect.