FFmpeg vs. MPEG-LA royalties [LWN.net]

FFmpeg vs. MPEG-LA royalties

Posted Jan 26, 2010 18:34 UTC (Tue) by DonDiego (guest, #24141)
In reply to: FFmpeg vs. MPEG-LA royalties by pboddie
Parent article: Blizzard: HTML5 video and H.264 - what history tells us and why we're standing with the web

> > You can of course use FFmpeg and pay the MPEG-LA if you are so
> > inclined. There are companies that do it. The MPEG-LA could not
> > care less which implementation is used.

> So that's the argument, is it? Just pay up?

I never said anything of the sort. I just had to counter the nonsense claim that Fluendo codecs are in any way more "legal" than those from FFmpeg. Those from FFmpeg are fast free software, Fluendo gives you slow proprietary software. If, for whatever weird reason, company X feels the need to pay the MPEG-LA, they have the liberty to do the wrong thing.

> There are people who redistribute Mozilla software, you know, and the
> whole business has significant implications for Free Software
> implementations of Web technologies.

Spare me the condescending tone please.

There are people who have been writing and distributing multimedia software for more than the last decade. We never had any sort of problem to speak of. Much less than in the area of word processors or web browsers, which nobody is afraid to distribute.

> > Mozilla could use a system FFmpeg just like Chrome does. No patent
> > liabilities would be incurred on Mozilla.

> Which brings us back to the patent licensing controversy where Google's
> licence covers Google, naturally, and Google's "evangelists" insist
> that they're not violating the licensing terms of FFmpeg even
> according to the spirit of those terms.

Google is violating neither the letter nor the spirit of FFmpeg's license. What gives you such weird ideas?

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FFmpeg vs. MPEG-LA royalties

Posted Jan 27, 2010 15:02 UTC (Wed) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] (10 responses)

So that's the argument, is it? Just pay up?
I never said anything of the sort. I just had to counter the nonsense claim that Fluendo codecs are in any way more "legal" than those from FFmpeg.

If you want implementations of the MPEG cartel's technologies in Mozilla software, then you more or less have to advocate that the Mozilla organisation pays up: they aren't going to get away with distributing the software as a US-based organisation without doing so. The alternative is that Mozilla doesn't incorporate such technologies.

Yes, it is a disgrace that people can use patents to paint legitimately distributed software as not being "legal" and to undermine the licensing terms of Free Software. The ways to get around this include campaigning for an end to software patents and avoidance of encumbered technologies until the former objective is achieved.

There are people who redistribute Mozilla software, you know, and the whole business has significant implications for Free Software implementations of Web technologies.
Spare me the condescending tone please.

Well, it is about redistribution. High-profile distributors given the choice of either being pursued by an aggressive patent cartel or not distributing an application, all because encumbered technology was embedded in a Free Software application, will not choose the former option regardless of any insistence that the licensing fees are optional.

Google is violating neither the letter nor the spirit of FFmpeg's license. What gives you such weird ideas?

Oh, just some weird Web site called LWN.net...

FFmpeg vs. MPEG-LA royalties

Posted Jan 28, 2010 10:44 UTC (Thu) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (9 responses)

> > > So that's the argument, is it? Just pay up?

> > I never said anything of the sort. I just had to counter the nonsense
> > claim that Fluendo codecs are in any way more "legal" than those from
> > FFmpeg.

> If you want implementations of the MPEG cartel's technologies in Mozilla
> software, then you more or less have to advocate that the Mozilla
> organisation pays up: they aren't going to get away with distributing
> the software as a US-based organisation without doing so. The
> alternative is that Mozilla doesn't incorporate such technologies.

Why? Because you say so even though the MPEG-LA licensing terms disagree?

> Yes, it is a disgrace that people can use patents to paint legitimately
> distributed software as not being "legal" and to undermine the licensing
> terms of Free Software. The ways to get around this include campaigning
> for an end to software patents and avoidance of encumbered technologies
> until the former objective is achieved.

Avoidance is not viable when everything except "Hello World!" is patented, which is the situation we are in now...

> > > There are people who redistribute Mozilla software, you know, and
> > > the whole business has significant implications for Free Software
> > > implementations of Web technologies.

> > Spare me the condescending tone please.

> Well, it is about redistribution. High-profile distributors given the
> choice of either being pursued by an aggressive patent cartel or not
> distributing an application, all because encumbered technology was
> embedded in a Free Software application, will not choose the former
> option regardless of any insistence that the licensing fees are optional.

VLC, MPlayer and FFmpeg are not high-profile distributors? It seems that
Then we shall have to switch to low-profile distributors for our free software then.

> > Google is violating neither the letter nor the spirit of FFmpeg's
> > license. What gives you such weird ideas?

> Oh, just some weird Web site called LWN.net...

A patent license from the MPEG-LA does not in any way interact with the LGPL. How would it? If Google has an MPEG-LA license and passes along FFmpeg to you it can only do so under the full terms of the LGPL. And this is what Google is doing: Distributing FFmpeg with all the rights that we passed along to them attached, as specified by the LGPL.

Anything else is impossible. The LGPL clearly states that if obligation X keeps you from distributing without passing along all rights, you may not distribute at all.

Even if they wanted to, neither Google nor the MPEG-LA can restrict the rights we granted you under the LGPL. FFmpeg is LGPLed, period. Not even a decree from the pope himself can change that. If somebody passes along FFmpeg to you, it happens under the terms of the LGPL.

Google can make any side deals they want. If those side deals prevent them from distributing according to the terms of the LGPL, then Google has a problem, but nobody else. Nobody else made a side deal. It doesn't matter if you get your FFmpeg from us directly or from Google. You are not a party to any sort of side deal, thus you are not affected by such side deals.

Note that this is how both FFmpeg and the Software Freedom Law Center see the issue. I never felt there was anything to clarify there, but apparently people are willing to take random quotes from random people as facts just because they are reprinted at lwn.net...

FFmpeg vs. MPEG-LA royalties

Posted Jan 28, 2010 12:36 UTC (Thu) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] (8 responses)

Why? Because you say so even though the MPEG-LA licensing terms disagree?

From the location mentioned previously, I can find a summary of the terms - the real terms being sent out only on request, it would seem - which clearly impose restrictions on the purposes for which encoder/decoder products can be used. So, in fact, even if someone does obtain a licence from the cartel, it isn't clear whether that licence covers the whole spectrum of distribution given that Free Software doesn't distinguish between "personal consumer use" and "providers".

Avoidance is not viable when everything except "Hello World!" is patented, which is the situation we are in now...

It's true that patent claims are ubiquitous, but when the choice is to proliferate known patent-encumbered technologies licensed by an active enforcement organisation, or to seek to use other technologies that are not known to be encumbered and are more easily defended, the responsible path is the latter not the former.

VLC, MPlayer and FFmpeg are not high-profile distributors? It seems that Then we shall have to switch to low-profile distributors for our free software then.

As others have pointed out, the lack of interest in pursuing these projects is no guarantee that they will not be pursued in the future. And not only does the organisation producing a Web browser with 30% or so market share have to worry about this, but they also have to worry about the effects on those who redistribute their software under the much more high-profile brand that they maintain. A set-top box manufacturer selling products based directly on FFmpeg would need to be sniffed out by the cartel's enforcement department, but one selling products with Firefox branding would be very visible indeed.

A patent license from the MPEG-LA does not in any way interact with the LGPL. How would it? If Google has an MPEG-LA license and passes along FFmpeg to you it can only do so under the full terms of the LGPL. And this is what Google is doing: Distributing FFmpeg with all the rights that we passed along to them attached, as specified by the LGPL.

Such a patent licence cannot interact with the LGPL for redistribution to be permissible under those terms. But given what I've read about segmenting the recipients of the software (from the summary, above), it's quite possible that Google claim that Chrome is for "personal consumer use" whilst anyone else who repackages Chrome (as Chromium, for example) is not their responsibility. Thus, the latter group are burdened with dealing with the cartel when they seek to distribute, rather than use, the software, particularly if it turns out that the software is intended for "personal computer use" or for "providers".

You can claim that the patent licence is merely some kind of "insurance". No-one is being forced to buy such insurance, but in practical terms a set of extra obligations are being added to certain recipients of the software. Whether people manage to sneak around section 11 of LGPLv2.1 or not on this basis - and I am reminded of the whole Microsoft/Novell covenant scheme - the lasting impression is that various principles of Free Software have been undermined.

Note that this is how both FFmpeg and the Software Freedom Law Center see the issue. I never felt there was anything to clarify there, but apparently people are willing to take random quotes from random people as facts just because they are reprinted at lwn.net...

Some more "random quotes" for you here. Of course, you can claim that it's merely a case of sour grapes that the GStreamer people are publishing advice from the FSF that conveniently supports their position. Again, we can probably only take Google's word for it that their agreement with the cartel is compatible, but as I note above, even if our trust is well-placed - that Google have not technically done "evil" - the consequences may not be so benign.

FFmpeg vs. MPEG-LA royalties

Posted Jan 28, 2010 15:21 UTC (Thu) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (7 responses)

> So, in fact, even if someone does obtain a licence from the cartel, it
> isn't clear whether that licence covers the whole spectrum of
> distribution given that Free Software doesn't distinguish between
> "personal consumer use" and "providers".

And why should we care in the least? If such issues exist, they are between the MPEG-LA and its licensee. None of it affects the general public.

> > VLC, MPlayer and FFmpeg are not high-profile distributors? It seems
> > that Then we shall have to switch to low-profile distributors for
> > our free software then.

> As others have pointed out, the lack of interest in pursuing these
> projects is no guarantee that they will not be pursued in the future.
> And not only does the organisation producing a Web browser with 30% or
> so market share have to worry about this, but they also have to worry
> about the effects on those who redistribute their software under the
> much more high-profile brand that they maintain.

You seem to think that FFmpeg is some sort of fringe software product. The opposite is the case. YouTube uses it, Facebook uses it, it is used in Hollywood postproduction, it is the basis of VLC and most free and a lot of the proprietary transcoding solutions. So it touches most multimedia files that are consumed nowadays at some point of their existence. FFmpeg or VLC are not escaping the attention of the MPEG-LA due to living in some sort of small niche. There are many companies that use FFmpeg and are MPEG-LA licensees at the same time.

> A set-top box manufacturer selling products based directly on FFmpeg
> would need to be sniffed out by the cartel's enforcement department, but
> one selling products with Firefox branding would be very visible indeed.

Trust me, it's not hard to find out whether some program or set-top box uses FFmpeg. It's much easier to verify it uses MPEG-LA technology of some sort. Just perusing the feature list should be enough.

> > A patent license from the MPEG-LA does not in any way interact with
> > the LGPL. How would it? If Google has an MPEG-LA license and passes
> > along FFmpeg to you it can only do so under the full terms of the
> > LGPL. And this is what Google is doing: Distributing FFmpeg with
> > all the rights that we passed along to them attached, as specified
> > by the LGPL.

> Such a patent licence cannot interact with the LGPL for redistribution
> to be permissible under those terms. But given what I've read about
> segmenting the recipients of the software (from the summary, above),
> it's quite possible that Google claim that Chrome is for "personal
> consumer use" whilst anyone else who repackages Chrome (as Chromium,
> for example) is not their responsibility. Thus, the latter group are
> burdened with dealing with the cartel when they seek to distribute,
> rather than use, the software, particularly if it turns out that the
> software is intended for "personal computer use" or for "providers".

So? Such are the sad facts of life. They may also have to deal with the cartel if they get FFmpeg directly from us.

> You can claim that the patent licence is merely some kind of
> "insurance". No-one is being forced to buy such insurance, but in
> practical terms a set of extra obligations are being added to certain
> recipients of the software. Whether people manage to sneak around
> section 11 of LGPLv2.1 or not on this basis - and I am reminded of the
> whole Microsoft/Novell covenant scheme - the lasting impression is that
> various principles of Free Software have been undermined.

I think the main confusion stems from not differentiating between patent licensors and patent licensees. Google is just a licensee. A patent license is not theirs to hand out.

There are indeed free software licenses that have provisions about allowing to use your *own* patents as related to a specific piece of software. However, the LGPL v2.1 is not one of them and Google is not an MPEG-LA licensor.

> > Note that this is how both FFmpeg and the Software Freedom Law Center
> > see the issue. I never felt there was anything to clarify there, but
> > apparently people are willing to take random quotes from random
> > people as facts just because they are reprinted at lwn.net...

> Some more "random quotes" for you here. Of course, you can claim that
> it's merely a case of sour grapes that the GStreamer people are
> publishing advice from the FSF that conveniently supports their position.

This is completely in line with what I am saying. Where do you see anything that does not support my position?

The LGPL forbids extra restrictions, but Google is not placing any extra restrictions on FFmpeg. They are distributing exactly as required by the LGPL. Please point out the exact infringing action and the section of the LGPL it violates.

> Again, we can probably only take Google's word for it that their
> agreement with the cartel is compatible, but as I note above, even if
> our trust is well-placed - that Google have not technically done "evil"
> - the consequences may not be so benign.

Again, what do we care if Google is complying with their MPEG-LA contract? It's entirely between them to resolve any issues they might have.

FFmpeg vs. MPEG-LA royalties

Posted Jan 28, 2010 17:27 UTC (Thu) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] (6 responses)

I think the main confusion stems from not differentiating between patent licensors and patent licensees. Google is just a licensee. A patent license is not theirs to hand out.

Yes, but the "obligations" I mentioned are administered by a third party. Google acknowledges such obligations by obtaining a patent licence - you or I may refuse to do so - and it is this acknowledgement which acts as an admission that recipients of the very code they distribute may also have to obtain a patent licence. This undermines Free Software precisely because it opens the affected works up to potentially limitless claims from anyone who feels that their "intellectual property" is being infringed, and the copyright licence is then no longer the ultimate arbiter of the rights or privileges it describes.

I would have a hard time obtaining a patent licence grant only for myself and then distributing Free Software affected by such a grant to others, but I guess my own standards of behaviour are different from those of others.

This is completely in line with what I am saying. Where do you see anything that does not support my position?

Right at the very end:

If you take a license which doesn't allow others to distribute original or modified versions of libmad practicing the same patent claims as the version you distribute, then you may not distribute at all.

Although this refers to the GPL, the same language supporting this conclusion appears in the LGPL.

FFmpeg vs. MPEG-LA royalties

Posted Jan 28, 2010 20:13 UTC (Thu) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (5 responses)

> > I think the main confusion stems from not differentiating between
> > patent licensors and patent licensees. Google is just a licensee.
> > A patent license is not theirs to hand out.

> Yes, but the "obligations" I mentioned are administered by a third
> party. Google acknowledges such obligations by obtaining a patent
> licence - you or I may refuse to do so - and it is this acknowledgement
> which acts as an admission that recipients of the very code they
> distribute may also have to obtain a patent licence. This undermines
> Free Software precisely because it opens the affected works up to
> potentially limitless claims from anyone who feels that their
> "intellectual property" is being infringed, and the copyright licence
> is then no longer the ultimate arbiter of the rights or privileges it
> describes.

There is nothing that requires admission. Do you think we can play pretend and say that the file libavcodec/h264.c in FFmpeg implements "Hello World!" or that a transcoding tool by the filename "ffmpeg" cannot in fact convert from one MPEG format to the other? You cannot solve problems by shutting up and there are no sleeping dogs to wake here.
Not talking about software patents does not make them any less harmful.

I have said it multiple times already, let me repeat it: FFmpeg is not a secret in the industry and not a secret to the MPEG LA.

> > This is completely in line with what I am saying. Where do you see
> > anything that does not support my position?

> Right at the very end:

> "If you take a license which doesn't allow others to distribute original
> or modified versions of libmad practicing the same patent claims as the
> version you distribute, then you may not distribute at all."

Again: no problem for us. Apparently Google is not bound by such an agreement. And if they are, it's their problem. Or the MPEG LA's problem depending on your point of view.

FFmpeg vs. MPEG-LA royalties

Posted Jan 29, 2010 12:07 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] (4 responses)

You cut this out in your reply which makes my point clear:

I would have a hard time obtaining a patent licence grant only for myself and then distributing Free Software affected by such a grant to others, but I guess my own standards of behaviour are different from those of others.

In case it isn't obvious to you, I'm putting myself in Google's position here.

Again: no problem for us. Apparently Google is not bound by such an agreement. And if they are, it's their problem.

The fact that this is Google's problem was my point four messages ago when I wrote:

Which brings us back to the patent licensing controversy where Google's licence covers Google, naturally, and Google's "evangelists" insist that they're not violating the licensing terms of FFmpeg even according to the spirit of those terms.

By "the spirit of those terms" take a look at the first quote above. And if the FSF's legal opinion were to stand on this matter, one would have to reassess Google's position beyond the mere spirit of those terms.

Naturally, the participants in the FFmpeg project, which I presume includes yourself, may not need to worry about being served with an injunction. After all, why would the cartel want to prevent the proliferation of software which is, according to them, subject to their licensing programme? It's a nice way of generating business.

Getting such technologies into an open standard is a bonus for the cartel (and a danger for everyone else), once everyone has convinced themselves that there's no risk in providing them to others (where "risk" includes unforeseen budget items related to patent licences that one was assured were not necessary), which was the caution given in the referenced article. It's distasteful to burden Free Software with such liabilities (see first quote, above, again) even if one's advice to people amounts to "it's cool" and "don't worry about it" (selective enforcement of patents is noted in the referenced article, by the way), but to burden open standards with them - noting the background of lobbying that goes on for "non-discriminatory licensing" in open standards (by patent holders) that would open the door for such inclusion - would push the boundaries of tastelessness still further. This is all covered adequately by the referenced article, of course.

FFmpeg vs. MPEG-LA royalties

Posted Jan 31, 2010 10:07 UTC (Sun) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (3 responses)

> You cut this out in your reply which makes my point clear:

> > I would have a hard time obtaining a patent licence grant only for
> myself and then distributing Free Software affected by such a grant to
> others, but I guess my own standards of behaviour are different from
> those of others.

> In case it isn't obvious to you, I'm putting myself in Google's position
> here.

So you want them to get a patent license valid for every person on earth? That basically means buying out all those patents. Do you think such a thing would be available at all? At a price Google would be willing and able to pay?

The alternative would be for Google to not get a patent license and exclude itself from using multimedia technologies. That's not an option. And please don't start the Theora fairy tales again, it's not an alternative.

> Which brings us back to the patent licensing controversy where Google's
> licence covers Google, naturally, and Google's "evangelists" insist that
> they're not violating the licensing terms of FFmpeg even according to
> the spirit of those terms.

>By "the spirit of those terms" take a look at the first quote above. And
> if the FSF's legal opinion were to stand on this matter, one would have
> to reassess Google's position beyond the mere spirit of those terms.

What do you call the "FSF's legal opinion" on the matter? I know for sure that Eben Moglen agrees with us (FFmpeg) that patent side deals do not have any bearing at all on LGPLv2.1-licensed code, such as FFmpeg. The Software Freedom Law Center works for FFmpeg, BTW.

> Naturally, the participants in the FFmpeg project, which I presume
> includes yourself,

Correct. My name is Diego Biurrun and I work on FFmpeg.

> may not need to worry about being served with an injunction. After all,
> why would the cartel want to prevent the proliferation of software which
> is, according to them, subject to their licensing programme? It's a nice
> way of generating business.

Your bitterness does FFmpeg a disservice. We're a big part of the free software computing stack, thus making Desktop Linux viable. In this day and age, computing without multimedia support is unthinkable.

FFmpeg vs. MPEG-LA royalties

Posted Feb 4, 2010 13:16 UTC (Thu) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] (2 responses)

So you want them to get a patent license valid for every person on earth? That basically means buying out all those patents. Do you think such a thing would be available at all? At a price Google would be willing and able to pay?

It doesn't mean buying those patents at all, but merely licensing them, which I'm sure has happened on a large scale before. But if Google's licence means that only they are practising the associated patent claims when distributing the code, and that recipients are not able to do so without a trip via the cartel's toll booth, then I think this contradicts the advice given by the FSF. Sure, you can claim that people aren't obliged to pay up to the cartel, but that's like claiming people don't have to pay their road tax or their television licence.

What do you call the "FSF's legal opinion" on the matter?

Well, I referenced the advice given by the FSF to the GStreamer project above and in a previous comment. If that's not their legal opinion then maybe you ought to tell the GStreamer people.

Your bitterness does FFmpeg a disservice. We're a big part of the free software computing stack, thus making Desktop Linux viable. In this day and age, computing without multimedia support is unthinkable.

I'm not bitter about FFmpeg, although to claim such a thing makes for a great distraction from the points being made in the original article(s). I'm merely pointing out that there are valid reasons for considering other multimedia technologies that don't appear on the MPEG cartel's pricing menu.

(And really, I don't have that much to say about Theora, so maybe you're grouping me together with a bunch of other people. Now something like Dirac is interesting because it's definitely a "professional" format and one whose patent infringement status has been thoroughly investigated by an organisation who should be able to comment on such matters with some certainty. I'm sure that some people might like to brush such formats aside and insist that everyone should get with the MPEG programme - in which case I'd really have suspicions about those people if their arguments were not limited to "it's what people on Windows expect".)

FFmpeg vs. MPEG-LA royalties

Posted Feb 5, 2010 10:53 UTC (Fri) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (1 responses)

> Sure, you can claim that people aren't obliged to pay up to the cartel, but that's like claiming people don't have to pay their road tax or their television licence.

This is a good comparison in fact. Nobody would think about banning cars and television worldwide just because in some parts of the world you have to pay a tax to use them.

FFmpeg vs. MPEG-LA royalties

Posted Feb 5, 2010 14:18 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

Sure, you can claim that people aren't obliged to pay up to the cartel, but that's like claiming people don't have to pay their road tax or their television licence.
This is a good comparison in fact. Nobody would think about banning cars and television worldwide just because in some parts of the world you have to pay a tax to use them.

Right, but I'm not advocating a "ban". I'm saying that by introducing a de-facto standard based on known-encumbered technologies, Google and friends are setting people up for such taxation. And I think that there are those of us that grudgingly accept things like genuine taxes and regulations because there is some kind of pretense of accountability and common sense behind their imposition. So, although some Free Software project may let you, for example, operate some kind of radio station, one has to grudgingly accept that for various reasons, there may be other restrictions from place to place that curtails the practical exercise of the freedoms/rights/privileges described in the software licence.

Where patents are concerned, however, there are those of us who do not consider them to be legitimate, not least because the system that upholds patents is not accountable - it's practically set up to enrich itself as its primary objective. Now, when such instruments collide with Free Software licensing, I would certainly wish to disregard them entirely and insist that they impose no limitations on the freedoms/rights/privileges described in the software licence. However, in practice, patents are used to undermine the usage and distribution of Free Software.

By licensing the MPEG patents for themselves (contrary to advice which apparently casts this strategy in a dubious light), Google acknowledges an obligation which resides beyond the software licence; through their market position, they proliferate this obligation, and then "to compete with Windows" or "to provide a proper experience" everyone becomes exposed to this obligation; since this obligation may impose unreasonable burdens on some parties (it may not be affordable for them to license the patents, for example, or maybe the cartel tells someone that they live in a "bad" country), it thereby excludes people from exchanging Free Software, thus dividing the community between the rich (with the privilege of using and distributing Free Software) and everyone else.

Google's actions are more like a strong dose of car advocacy, or even an act to mandate car ownership, when having a car at the very least probably doesn't make sense for many people, and it might even be an unwanted financial burden for others. All I and others are trying to do is to encourage more sustainable alternatives.