The ongoing MySQL campaign

Posted Jan 4, 2010 7:23 UTC (Mon) by jjs (guest, #10315)
In reply to: The ongoing MySQL campaign by hingo
Parent article: The ongoing MySQL campaign

> But if the vendors of 3rd party proprietary software cannot support MySQL anymore, then the end users cannot really choose MySQL to run it either, even if they of course legally can do what they want with GPL software in-house.

1. So the issue is proprietary MySQL - please admit that, don't frame it as an "Open Source" issue.

2. Sure they can choose to run MySQL. They may have to find alternatives to the 3rd party software, but again, they chose to use proprietary software, they took the risk. Of course, the 3rd parties could choose to GPL / Open Source their products and provide support. Just because a business model used to work doesn't mean the government has to guarantee it will always work.

3. Why should Oracle give away the product? Assuming what you say is true (I disagree, but for arguments sake assume you're right), the standard antitrust action would be to sell the product. You're proposing Oracle give it away to (among others) you. Why? Why should they not be forced to sell it? I understand you can't afford it - that's your problem. Others may be able to. It could even be spun out as a new company. The only rationale so far for relicencing in a more lenient manner (BSD/Apache) is so MPAB can get into the old proprietary game at no cost. Why should the EU give you the business? Why should Oracle get no compensation for what they are giving away - esp seeing the compensation Monty got by selling it to Sun.

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The ongoing MySQL campaign

Posted Jan 4, 2010 8:22 UTC (Mon) by hingo (guest, #14792) [Link] (2 responses)

1. Like I've said, I'm convinced that the threat is against MySQL as a whole.

2. Some people seem to think that it will actually be advantageous, if MySQL could only be used by GPL software and it would miraculously force everyone to GPL their software. (For instance, we could have a fully GPL'd telecom software stack!) Unfortunately, I don't think this is realistic. It would be great if it was though! If the world worked this way, we should immediately start by re-licensing all GNU libraries as GPL. See also Richard Stallman on this same topic.

3. Why don't people listen to what I'm saying? We always said that Oracle should sell MySQL to a suitable third party. (press release) Yes, this is the typical action that is taken in these kinds of situations. Since you ask, I could speculate that Oracle could have proposed some kind of license change to the EU, because then they could still keep MySQL. Oracle's problem in selling MySQL to someone else is that removing MySQL as a competitor is more worth to Oracle than what MySQL is worth in itself, so they don't want to sell it away. So if they could get MySQL by liberating the MySQL licensing a little bit, they might be interested, because then they would still take away MySQL/Sun as the competing business. (For instance, PostgreSQL's existence under BSD is not noticeable at all as a competitive threat to Oracle.) For the same reasons, I'm not sure if the EU would then accept such a solution, they would prefer divesting MySQL.

Btw, formally, the EU cannot ask for anything specific. It can only deny the merger as a whole, and it is up to Oracle to propose remedies if needed.

The ongoing MySQL campaign

Posted Jan 4, 2010 17:44 UTC (Mon) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link] (1 responses)

Oracles problem in selling MySQL is that they won't get what the software is worth, nor what SUN paid for it. Under a forced sale scenario it's going to go a fire sale prices and I believe that that's Monty's hope, that they can come in and buy it back at fire sale prices then sell it again down the road for another billion to another major company.

MySQL is not a threat to Oracles business, it never has been and it likely never will be. MySQL is so far behind Oracles main product that it will be multiple decades before it could even have a chance of getting to Oracles current level. For that reason alone Oracle has no reason whatsoever to hamper, harm or kill mysql. It's going to fit perfectly into their low end product line that INNODB+ currently occupies.

Regardless, this sale is not a threat to FOSS software. Any argument to the contrary is just what's getting mine and others hackles up. Monty's and others framing this as an FOSS issue is nothing other than a fabrication at best and an outright lie at the worst. It's appalling to me that the EU merger review process has been so corrupted over a non-issue and the public campaign Monty is making in the name of FOSS when he doesn't give a damn about FOSS. (Pardon my language) His attack on Eben not being in touch with the GPL and other arguments do nothing but harm the community.

The ongoing MySQL campaign

Posted Jan 5, 2010 8:17 UTC (Tue) by hingo (guest, #14792) [Link]

Hi Rahvin

Like before, I don't have a need to convince you to change your opinion. But for the benefit of our fellow readers, allow me to quickly share some statistics so everyone can form an informed opinion.

Oracles problem in selling MySQL is that they won't get what the software is worth, nor what SUN paid for it. Under a forced sale scenario it's going to go a fire sale prices and I believe that that's Monty's hope, that they can come in and buy it back at fire sale prices then sell it again down the road for another billion to another major company.

Given that MySQL continued to grow during the Sun period, you would expect its value to be more now, than back then. Sure, maybe Sun was desperate and overpaid and also the economy is down, but still. Monty got somewhere around 5% of the billion that Sun paid. Even if he used all his money (which would be a bad investment strategy), the reduction in MySQL's value would have to be 95% for your theory to work.

MySQL is not a threat to Oracles business, it never has been and it likely never will be. MySQL is so far behind Oracles main product that it will be multiple decades before it could even have a chance of getting to Oracles current level. For that reason alone Oracle has no reason whatsoever to hamper, harm or kill mysql. It's going to fit perfectly into their low end product line that INNODB+ currently occupies.

Customers that migrate from an all-Oracle data center to use MySQL find that typically it is feasible to migrate 60-80% of your apps. For the last 20% it would cost more than it saves, but then over time some of those apps get switched to new ones, at which point they can use MySQL too. So your comment is 20% right, because MySQL is only a threat to about 80% of Oracle's database business. Btw, your comment is similar in spirit to a famous quote about Linux that "it will not be big and professional" (like GNU).

Where can you buy INNODB+?

His attack on Eben not being in touch with the GPL and other arguments do nothing but harm the community.

I believe you confuse Monty with Florian Müller.

Monty and Eben are good friends and we all had a nice coffee in Brussels together. (Eben may not fully have understood how MySQL's business models work, and as a lawyer he was poorly informed about the technical architecture such as the client libraries being GPL, but that's another story. I'm sure that with better background info he wouldn't have any problem interpreting the GPL license itself.)