Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

[Posted November 25, 2009 by jake]

ars technica looks at a decision from the recent Ubuntu Developer Summit (UDS) to remove the GIMP from the default install. "An important part of the 10.04 roadmap that emerged during UDS is a tentative plan to remove the GIMP, the GNU Image Manipulation Tool, from the default Ubuntu installation. Although this decision is viewed by some as controversial, the reasoning behind it is valid. The removal of a niche professional graphics editing tool reflects Ubuntu's growing maturity as a mainstream platform for regular users."

to post comments

It's just plain wrong.

Posted Nov 25, 2009 21:28 UTC (Wed) by davide.del.vento (guest, #59196) [Link] (15 responses)

I think it's a wrong decision, and it could be a deal breaker for me. I know I can easily install GIMP myself later, but that's not the point here. The point is that if they prefer junk like mono-based F-spot and tomboy, leaving out jewelry like GIMP, then I'd better jump out of the junkwagon.

It's just plain wrong.

Posted Nov 25, 2009 21:42 UTC (Wed) by dowdle (subscriber, #659) [Link] (5 responses)

I am not an Ubuntu fan but I must give them credit for fitting a lot on the Ubuntu single CD media. Fedora does not include OpenOffice.org nor GIMP if I remember correctly. Gimp is a relatively large program and getting rid of it for a smaller program (I assume whatever they are using as an alternative is smaller) sounds reasonable to me.

A single CD can't hold too much... which is why I make my own remix DVD of Fedora, 1.9GB of LiveDVD goodness... with updates applied... and RPM Fusion packages added.

I'm starting to wonder when distros are going to drop LiveCDs in favor of a LiveDVD. The CDs might still be useful on older computers with smaller hard drives.

It's just plain wrong.

Posted Nov 25, 2009 21:51 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

Yes, Fedora Live CD includes comprehensive locale support out of the box instead of including of Openoffice.org and in the last version, GIMP was dropped as well. However, this hasn't very controversial in Fedora since the DVD download is prominently displayed and a lot of users needing additional flexibility (control over package set etc) continue to use them instead. More details at

http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-sur...

Note however that the Fedora 13 plan is to include a 1 GB Live image targeting USB thumb drives by default since trying to provide a good user experience by default while accommodating the increasing growing application stack is proving to be more and more difficult. The jump is natural and Fedora will take that step shortly.

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2009-...

It's just plain wrong.

Posted Nov 25, 2009 22:07 UTC (Wed) by MattPerry (guest, #46341) [Link]

> I am not an Ubuntu fan but I must give them credit for fitting a lot on
> the Ubuntu single CD media.

That is what amazes me about all Linux distributions. I recently downloaded the Windows 7 DVD from Microsoft (my company is a volume license subscriber) and it's 2.7 GB. For just an OS and browser. Ubuntu manages to pack an entire OS, drivers, and applications into 650 MB.

It's just plain wrong.

Posted Nov 25, 2009 22:11 UTC (Wed) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link] (1 responses)

The Ubuntu live cd gives up a lot of localization support in order to fit more applications in. The default Ubuntu Live CD is great.. if you speak English.

The Fedora livecd so far has made a different choice which tries very hard not to give preferential treatment to English speakers.

Its an ironic situation really. The livecd distribution with the English derived name makes the choice which considers foreign languages more equitably than the livecd distribution with the non-English derived name.

Is the language from which with Ubuntu draws its name supported in the Ubuntu livecd?

-jef

Ubuntu 9.10 Languages

Posted Nov 26, 2009 7:15 UTC (Thu) by sladen (guest, #27402) [Link]

If my reading of the ubuntu.karmic/live and kubuntu.karmic/live seeds is correct, then the Desktop CDs shipped with some combination of:

Ubuntu: English, Spanish, Xhosa, Portuguese, German, Bengali and French
Kubuntu: English, German, French, Spanish and Russian

The limit being the 80*60*75*2048 bytes available on a CD image; an ARM 1 GB image getting everything. At one point I recall that the selections were made by a script based on space-available that (for Ubuntu) tried to maximise the possibility that any one person picking up the CD would be able to understand either a native, or secondary language, to enable getting it installed. For Kubuntu, the selection order appears to come from popcon data.

It's just plain wrong.

Posted Nov 25, 2009 22:12 UTC (Wed) by bignose (subscriber, #40) [Link]

> Gimp is a relatively large program and getting rid of it for a smaller program (I assume whatever they are using as an alternative is smaller) sounds reasonable to me.

The programs (F-Spot and Tomboy) mentioned by the OP make use of Mono, and without them the install CD would not (AFAIK) need the huge Mono libraries. That's part of the point here, and I agree: adding Mono bloatware but removing GIMP seems like a poor trade.

It's just plain wrong.

Posted Nov 26, 2009 1:20 UTC (Thu) by allesfresser (guest, #216) [Link] (5 responses)

I tend to agree with you. It's kind of ironic that a system that depends on the GIMP Toolkit (GTK) is dropping its parent program. I consider image manipulation one of the basic things necessary for a complete system; not just taking out Grandma's red-eye, but real image creation and editing. Taking out the GIMP in favor of F-Spot (even leaving aside the Mono issue) is like removing Abiword in favor of Gedit.

It's just plain wrong.

Posted Nov 27, 2009 11:39 UTC (Fri) by Los__D (guest, #15263) [Link] (4 responses)

What the hell would most users use The GIMP for?

This is like demanding an audio manipulation application, a movie editing application, or a complete IDE in the default install: Lame, and not seeing beyond one's own preferences.

It's just plain wrong.

Posted Nov 27, 2009 17:23 UTC (Fri) by allesfresser (guest, #216) [Link] (2 responses)

Um, maybe the "average user" would like to create and manipulate graphic images? Seems like a pretty common task to me, and a creative endeavor worth encouraging. All of this condescension makes me wonder what people think the "average user" actually does with their PC--certainly they can't be doing anything creative; they must be just a consumer of content, eyeballs on a stick, huh? All I know is, a lot of people I've demoed Ubuntu for find it pretty cool that a "Photoshop-close-enough" is there by default. Furthermore, I wish they'd put Inkscape in there too.

Lame? Hardly. On that logic, how about ditching the whole games category--I've never used it, so I think nobody probably uses it. Plus, it's a big waste of time. Enough sarcasm for ya?

It's just plain wrong.

Posted Nov 27, 2009 19:58 UTC (Fri) by Los__D (guest, #15263) [Link]

You are of course right.

Now we are at it, let's remove Rhythmbox and Totem in favor of Audacity and Kino.

Oh, and who needs OpenOffice Writer or Drawing? DTP all the way, Scribus is the answer.

There should be absolutely no games, users should be making their own.

All hail creativity.

It's just plain wrong.

Posted Dec 4, 2009 1:28 UTC (Fri) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]

Well, that's what Digikam is for. An application that a "normal" user can use, instead of GIMP's abstractions where you need to have Photoshop used in advance to handle it. If I start Digikam, I know how to edit my photos. With GIMP, I'm completely lost, and I never have met a more horrible UI.

FWIW: I don't use Ubuntu, so don't claim I'm a fanboy that wants to defend Ubuntu's decision. I seriously doubt that GIMP is a good application and a "showcase" for a generic user who wants to organize and manipulate the photos from his or her digital camera.

It's just plain wrong.

Posted Nov 30, 2009 8:52 UTC (Mon) by proski (guest, #104) [Link]

Perhaps having an IDE in the default install would be indeed an overkill, but software for manipulation multimedia files should not be. Editing audio, video and images is not something limited to professionals.

It's just plain wrong.

Posted Nov 27, 2009 1:03 UTC (Fri) by malor (guest, #2973) [Link] (2 responses)

GIMP doesn't really suit the Ubuntu ethos; I've rarely used a GUI program I had more trouble understanding. Working with GIMP feels like the graphic equivalent of writing procmail recipes or screwing with sendmail.cf. It's a steep uphill battle for a long time before it pays off.

Ubuntu is supposed to be easy, easy, easy out of the box, and GIMP is most emphatically not Mom-friendly.

It's not like it's being removed, it's just not where Mom can run it accidentally and end up hopelessly confused.

It's just plain wrong.

Posted Nov 27, 2009 17:05 UTC (Fri) by allesfresser (guest, #216) [Link] (1 responses)

>GIMP is most emphatically not Mom-friendly.

I suppose that would depend on the savvy_level of the Mom in question. Nice stereotyping there...

It's just plain wrong.

Posted Nov 28, 2009 11:10 UTC (Sat) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link]

I don't think the GIMP is really anyone-friendly.

I think people use "mom" "grandmother" etc to try to suggest someone "not like you", the hope
being that you're not actually already a mom, or a grandmother, and so this will depersonalise
the evaluation. I'm not sure it's a useful device though, because I think it's very hard to evaluate
what the "average x" would think or want. I haven't surveyed thousands of moms on any topic in
particular.

But back to the GIMP. The menu system alone is a struggle. The toolset is sophisticated, not
simple. I've used it on and off for many years but still frequently struggle to make simple
changes to simple graphics.

I'd say the GIMP is a quite useful tool, but it doesn't scale down nicely to "I need to change some
simple things about this bitmap". It *may* scale up nicely to "I'm a professional graphic designer
with a need to sometimes work in raster images", but I can't say for sure, that's not me.

But hey, I'm glad it exists, and I use it. Thanks GIMP people. I don't think your pogram needs to
be installed by default, but I'll install it either way.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 25, 2009 21:44 UTC (Wed) by dowdle (subscriber, #659) [Link] (20 responses)

I think their (ars tech) reasoning about GIMP being too complex of a program for home users is flawed. If that was the case then Ubuntu could be even more "mature" by dropping OpenOffice.org for Abiword and friends.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 25, 2009 22:52 UTC (Wed) by Tara_Li (guest, #26706) [Link] (11 responses)

I'm not sure I can make any real comparison betweee GIMP and F-Spot...

I've got F-Spot here - and I can't find where to load a single image file. The "Import" button is looking for a *DIRECTORY*!

And I've got this Edit Image window open, but it's got Crop, Red-eye Reduction, Desaturate, Sepia Tone, Straighten, Soft Focus, Auto Color, and Adjust Colors - what about gamma adjustment, sharpening, rotating the image, rescaling it...

I'm not sure I can see *ANY* real use for F-Spot, except to view images - and I'd much rather use the far more effective GQView for that.

I know - we can *REALLY* cut down the install set - let's *ONLY* put the OS on the install CD - the kernel, the hardware drivers, a shell, and *MAYBE* the X system - and then *EVERYTHING* else can be installed from the package management system.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 25, 2009 23:52 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (10 responses)

When people use a program to view photographs they just took they typically
want to do some color correction and maybe get rid of some red-eye. TGimp is
total overkill.

By combining that with a picture viewing program it gives them pretty much
everything they want in a single application.

Have you ever imported 50-60 photos you just took last night into Gimp to
view them and make minor corrections to the ones you like?

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 1:02 UTC (Thu) by Tara_Li (guest, #26706) [Link] (9 responses)

Yes - on several occasions. Had to rotate some of them - I'm a big fan of making the object of my interest take up as many pixels in the image as I can - and adjust the gamma, most of the time. I've cleaned up a dozen or more scans of hand-drawn images. It seems to come down to dumbing down the whole Linux system for this mystical "desktop user", who as far as I can tell, isn't supposed to be competent to do more than press the power button to wake the machine up.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 1:21 UTC (Thu) by sitaram (guest, #5959) [Link] (7 responses)

That mythical user is actually a lot more capable than that, if the task at hand is something that deeply interests them. On the other hand, if they *need* to do it but don't *want* to do it (or don't enjoy it), they'll be like you said: only know how to push the power button.

It's a tough call knowing which kind of users you have more of, so I don't blame their punting like this.

Or maybe I'm just saying that because I have stopped using/recommending ubuntu due to mono concerns for a while now, so it doesn't affect me <evil grin>.

[Aside: A single CD cant fit everything. I'm intrigued by a comment that said Fedora 13 will be targeting 1 GB USB sticks -- excellent idea. I wish Mandriva would start doing the same. They currently have a fantastic "hybrid" image that can be dumped on CD/DVD or USB, but the sizes are, thus, either CD or DVD. Something in between would be great...]

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 3:13 UTC (Thu) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (6 responses)

Gimp is still just 3 button presses away. It's not like Ubuntu is denying a single thing to Gimp users.

I know for a fact that Gimp is just too complex for most people to get. I've actually worked with students (years and years ago) and helped people learn how to use things like Photoshop, Fractal Painter, Quark Express, etc etc. Plus now I work with people and write documentation so that "normal folks" can do very technical things by following step by step. And I've done phone support for a dial-up ISP (years and years and years ago).

Until you actually work with people then it's extremely difficult for technical people who immerse themselves in computer-dome to really understand that things they understand and are simple computer concepts are completely alien to most people.

Its very easy to insult most people because they seem and act just so stupid and ignorant, but it's important to understand that for what they do in their lives and professions I (and us) would be just as much out of place.

This is why applications like Office have such a strong hold. They put years of effort into their jobs and their jobs revolve around a single application suite.. they get very expert at that application but remain completely ignorant about everything else. Moving to OO.org or Koffice effectively means abandoning months and months of training.

It is so obvious that Gimp is just not suited for most people it's not funny. That does not make it a bad program. Powerful programs require a significant investment of personal time to learn how to use.. its almost unavoidable.

F-stop may suck in a lot of ways and is not as mature as Gimp, but still it is setup in a way that most people can perform common editing and video functions without a big investment of time. If they want to have more power then the "app installer" makes it trivial to get access to Gimp and it's extensions (or at least it should)

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 9:02 UTC (Thu) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link] (4 responses)

Maybe the GIMP developers will produce a stripped-down 'photo-view GIMP' user interface that has the same code underneath, but a simpler, F-Spot-like interface.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 16:46 UTC (Thu) by forthy (guest, #1525) [Link] (2 responses)

Well, I hope so, because what sucks most in GIMP is when you want to edit a number of images - you have to load them one by one through a cumbersome dialog box. I'd rather have a photoviewer mode, where I can view and edit a picture, and then say "next image please" and the current one is saved, the next one loaded, and I can continue (or select one from a thumbnail view). Optimally with a "record edits" so that I can replay them on the next image, which quite likely needs the same sort of edits.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 20:17 UTC (Thu) by Tara_Li (guest, #26706) [Link]

$ gimp *.jpg *.gif *.png *.tiff

Damn, that's a lot of open windows!

GIMP's file dialogues

Posted Nov 27, 2009 12:31 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

Well, I hope so, because what sucks most in GIMP is when you want to edit a number of images - you have to load them one by one through a cumbersome dialog box.

I dislike the file dialogue boxes in the GIMP - they're a product of some kind of BeOS or NeXT nostalgia fetish (with both single-click and double-click icons depending on what you're clicking on, and an "all or nothing" attitude to options), presumably from the same school of usability "experts" as the reversed "Cancel" and "OK" buttons - but you can at least use Ctrl or Shift to select more than one file in the same directory.

Really?

Posted Nov 26, 2009 23:16 UTC (Thu) by gbutler69 (guest, #54063) [Link]

A Stripped-Down GIMP? Is that with or with-out leather, zippered mask?

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 13:17 UTC (Thu) by jmmc (guest, #34939) [Link]

> Its very easy to insult most...

> This is why applications like Office have such a strong hold. They put years of effort...

> It is so obvious that Gimp is just not suited for most people...

drag: spot on agree. Summarized exactly the history of the non-technical user of the entire past 25 years of PC usage.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Dec 4, 2009 1:43 UTC (Fri) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]

Well, I seem to be such a "desktop user"...

I'm using Unix since 1983, starting with Version 7 (we had a Bell Labs Source license; my first job was to port the original Bourne Shell to BS2000); using Linux since ca. 1993, starting with 0.99.4; having a thorough education in typography and book typesetting (I'm a member of the LaTeX core team); my Ph.D. was in HCI area, I'm used to GUI programming and evaluations since more than 2 decades, and yet -- GIMP is the most horrible graphics manipulation program that I ever encountered. It's menu structure is completely incomprehensible, the layer manipulations UIs are counter-intuitive to the extreme, IMNSHO it's simply garbage.

But who am I to judge, my opinions will only be held by someone who is "only competent enough to press the power button to wake the machine up", as you told me. Seems I'm just a newbie to this new-fangled stuff called Linux, ain't I?

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 25, 2009 23:16 UTC (Wed) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link] (7 responses)

Take a close look at Ubuntu's popcon "vote" rankings stats... once you weed out the libraries and framework packages.. and just look at packages that contain end-user binaries... you see something interesting. Remember that a popcon "vote" means recently used not just installed.

To my eye it looks like open office is the highest ranked end-user application in Ubuntu's popcon... ahead of firefox unless I missed something. That surprises me.

Gimp ranks above fspot.

Both evolution and thunderbird rank above gimp.

Rythmbox ranks much higher than banshee.

Tomboy ranks extremely highly. Is tomboy's panel applet automatically started in Ubuntu Gnome desktops? If so then this ranking has to be thrown out as a vote measure. Anything which starts up automatically at desktop login by default has a skewed ranking in comparison to applications which users must choose to start up.

What really surprises me is that during the UDS discussion about default applications.. nobody bothered to datamine the popcon stat recently used rankings to see what the userbase is actually...using. According to popcon people are using the gimp.

If gimp is removed and f-spot put into the default cd... it will be interesting to see if the relative popcon rankings change. If f-spot doesn't shoot up in rankings...well...then perhaps f-spot is a bad functionality choice for a default app. And vice versa for gimp once its removed. Sadly this is the sort of thing you can't really know until you make a change. Popcon is the only quantifiable way Ubuntu has to measure the userbase usage patterns and to track the impact of default application shifts.

-jef

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 11:27 UTC (Thu) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link]

>If f-spot doesn't shoot up in rankings...well...then perhaps f-spot is a bad functionality choice for a default app

I think F-Spot is basically a bad choice for anything. It's a rare application which has my partner ranting about how shoddy and unusable it is. So far the list contains just F-Spot and Amarok 2, IIRC.

(I on the other hand have this reaction to anything which annoys me more than a couple of times per use.)

And yes, I'm reasonably sure that Tomboy is added to the panel automatically.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 27, 2009 1:07 UTC (Fri) by gravious (guest, #7662) [Link] (5 responses)

I don't use Ubuntu any more but when I did I used to listen to my music with Tomboy because Rhythmbox was very crashy for *years* and it just bugged me too much. It doesn't surprise me that Tomboy is ranked highly. People watch a lot of videos. It has never been a default panel app as far as I'm aware.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 27, 2009 1:09 UTC (Fri) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link] (4 responses)

Are you sure you don't mean banshee... instead of tomboy? tomboy is a note taking application.

-jef

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 27, 2009 1:24 UTC (Fri) by mp (subscriber, #5615) [Link] (3 responses)

gravious means totem, I guess.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 27, 2009 6:58 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (2 responses)

And of course Totem's written in Python (a language Ubuntu can only drop
if they want to break all their admin scripts) and doesn't drag in Mono at
all.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 27, 2009 14:31 UTC (Fri) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link] (1 responses)

Some of its extensions are written in Python, but totem is written in C.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 27, 2009 22:49 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

... hm. so it is. I must have been thinking of something else. Sorry for
the mislead.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 25, 2009 21:47 UTC (Wed) by MattPerry (guest, #46341) [Link] (41 responses)

Congrats to them for dropping a package whose name is a pejorative term for disabled people. I know that's not the reason why they did it, but it makes marketing Ubuntu much less awkward.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 25, 2009 22:36 UTC (Wed) by Tara_Li (guest, #26706) [Link] (36 responses)

Odd - I thought it was a sign of the growing acceptance of the BDSM community!

What's a gimp in the handicapped community?

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 0:16 UTC (Thu) by MattPerry (guest, #46341) [Link] (35 responses)

> What's a gimp in the handicapped community?

In the English language, it's an offensive term used to describe a person with a physical disability. It's much like calling a dwarf a midget, or a black person a nigger. It doesn't have the same level of offense as the latter, but it still is viewed as a negative term where I live (United States) and is unacceptable language to use in public discourse.

Having a prominent piece of free software using the same name as a slur has put me in a bind in the past when I attempt to explain the name. Some people don't care or don't say anything. People under 30 invariably mention the Pulp Fiction movie. People over 30 usually mention the slur. It's embarrassing for me as I want to show people how capable free software is, yet the name leaves the impression of a lack of professionalism. I agree.

I've encountered several people who refused to even download it due to the name. My current excuse is to tell people that it's an acronym created by people who do not speak English as their native language. That seems to be a suitable explanation but first impressions count and by that point I don't know if any damage has already been done.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 0:35 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] (27 responses)

> In the English language, it's an offensive term used to describe a person with a physical disability.

There's more than one English language, it seems. In yours, since the Twenties, it may mean that. In ours, it's an ornamental fabric, and has been for centuries.

Nonetheless, the name as applied to the graphics program is a clear and obvious reference to the BDSM community. Is offended disability somehow more worthy of respect than proudly claimed sexuality?

Perhaps, in order to avoid causing offence, the best course of action would be to cease using, you know, words.

Or abbreviate differently

Posted Nov 26, 2009 1:26 UTC (Thu) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link] (4 responses)

It sounds more like Professional Software if you abbreviate it to "GNUimage MP" anyway.

Or abbreviate differently

Posted Nov 26, 2009 2:03 UTC (Thu) by dmaxwell (guest, #14010) [Link] (3 responses)

In that case, I humbly suggest the Professional Image Manipulation Program. That way the professionals will know exactly where to go to PIMP their graphics.

Or abbreviate differently

Posted Nov 26, 2009 16:52 UTC (Thu) by forthy (guest, #1525) [Link] (2 responses)

Oh no, a "pimp" is the boss of prostitutes.

Or abbreviate differently

Posted Nov 27, 2009 4:08 UTC (Fri) by dmaxwell (guest, #14010) [Link]

Whooooooosh!

Or abbreviate differently

Posted Nov 27, 2009 21:43 UTC (Fri) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link]

> Oh no, a "pimp" is the boss of prostitutes.
This is also the meaning of 'Mac' in French, but that did not stop Apple
to sell computer under that name in France.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 3:45 UTC (Thu) by MattPerry (guest, #46341) [Link] (10 responses)

> Nonetheless, the name as applied to the graphics program is a clear and
> obvious reference to the BDSM community.

Can you provide a source to back up this claim?

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 22:28 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] (9 responses)

Gosh, was I making a claim? Didn't mean to, guv. Honest.

Does that mean that my assumption that you were expressing an opinion is similarly misconceived? If so, I'm sure you are eager to detail the authority upon which you speak, and provide some sources of your own.

But forgive me. I'm just always intrigued by people who claim to speak on behalf of "the disabled", and yet are very clearly not speaking on behalf of _me_. It makes me wonder on who else's behalf they aren't speaking, you know?

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 22:41 UTC (Thu) by MattPerry (guest, #46341) [Link] (8 responses)

> Gosh, was I making a claim?

Yes.

> Does that mean that my assumption that you were expressing an opinion is
> similarly misconceived?

No. I was expressing an opinion and observation based on my personal experiences with marketing GIMP and Linux distros that have GIMP to potential users.

> I'm just always intrigued by people who claim to speak on behalf of "the
> disabled", and yet are very clearly not speaking on behalf of _me_. It
> makes me wonder on who else's behalf they aren't speaking, you know?

No, I don't know.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 27, 2009 2:24 UTC (Fri) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link]

I doubt I could explain. I think you just have to be there.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 27, 2009 2:27 UTC (Fri) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] (4 responses)

(Although I note that you're far from forthcoming with support for your own claims, even when challenged. I guess that's what happens when you ride a hobby horse for so long it gets stuck up your arse.)

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 27, 2009 3:45 UTC (Fri) by MattPerry (guest, #46341) [Link] (3 responses)

> (Although I note that you're far from forthcoming with support for your
> own claims, even when challenged.

No one has challenged me for anything. What claims do you believe that I have made?

> I guess that's what happens when you
> ride a hobby horse for so long it gets stuck up your arse.)

I would appreciate it if you would refrain from personal attacks. I am willing to engage in dialogue with you but only if you will be civil.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 27, 2009 12:55 UTC (Fri) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] (2 responses)

*shakes head, gives up, walks away*

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Dec 2, 2009 16:54 UTC (Wed) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link] (1 responses)

What are you going on about? You don't seem to have actually *said* anything beyond some vague insults...

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Dec 3, 2009 1:22 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link]

God, it's never a good sign when the peanut gallery joins in... five days late.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 29, 2009 17:47 UTC (Sun) by ds2horner (subscriber, #13438) [Link] (1 responses)

I have four seriously disabled children (none are amputees), and I have not appreciated the “gimp” reference for them, (It has rarely occurred in my earshot or been reported to me). But I never made the connection between the GIMP package and a slur.

Google IS your friend.

I am disappointed in the acrimony here.

search for "GIMP fabric trim" - first non sponsored link is titled:

Fabric Trim - Braided Trim - Gimp

www.interiormall.com/cat/ndisplaycoll.asp?c1=Trim&book=1107

Hence the "claim" substantiated in my opinion.

Matt – this is a “claim” you made that you did not substantiate:

“… a package whose name is a pejorative term for disabled people….”

I Googled “GIMP disabled” - first non sponsored link is titled:

The Gimp Parade subtext “women are invisible in this book”

Substantiated your claim that the term references disabled sufficiently.

That the term is pejorative, not so much. But the proof is probably out there.

I agree with lysse (“Perhaps, in order to avoid causing offence, the best course of action would be to cease using, you know, words.”) that saying almost anything can cause offense.

And I did not know about the explicit BDSM implication (more than any other variant of sexual fetish) which to me is a less substantiated “claim” than the other “meanings”

Misunderstandings and mis-communications happen – on review most people eventually “get it”.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 29, 2009 17:53 UTC (Sun) by MattPerry (guest, #46341) [Link]

> Matt this is a claim you made that you did not substantiate:
> a package whose name is a pejorative term for disabled people.

Apparently it's a pejorative term in the USA only.

Supported here: http://lwn.net/Articles/364168/

Clear and Obvious?

Posted Nov 28, 2009 3:58 UTC (Sat) by gmatht (subscriber, #58961) [Link] (9 responses)

"clear and obvious" seems a bit strong, but I have come across the sexual
reference a number of times but this is the first time I have seen the
handicapped reference. From Google:

slashdot gimp gay: 574,000
slashdot gimp cripple: 83,000
slashdot gimp handicapped: 80,700

This may just be because everything in slashdot uses the word gay. Even so,
this does imply that the sexual reference would be topmost on slashdot
readers minds; i.e. it isn't just me who got this reference first.

Clear and Obvious?

Posted Nov 28, 2009 5:53 UTC (Sat) by MattPerry (guest, #46341) [Link] (7 responses)

> "clear and obvious" seems a bit strong, but I have come across the sexual
> reference a number of times but this is the first time I have seen the
> handicapped reference.

I agree that there doesn't appear to be a "clear and obvious" link to any sexual acts. I asked the poster for a reference but he or she became combative. Apparently they were attempting to troll me. I don't believe the term for the program means anything other than what the authors state: GNU Image Manipulation Program. That doesn't mean that a consumer's interpretation of a name isn't colored by their own language and culture. Marketing is complex.

As the other posted mentioned, it's an ornamental fabric in their English. I live in the United States and apparently the derogatory definition is an Americanism. See the definition in the slang category at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gimp. I had not known it was considered offensive in the US until it was pointed out to me a several years ago. I can't say having the name associated with BDSM is any better, particularly in the overly conservative USA. Hopefully other English speaking countries don't labor under such problems.

Clear and Obvious?

Posted Nov 28, 2009 11:23 UTC (Sat) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link] (2 responses)

The name is not "a gimp" or "gimp" but rather "the gimp".

This makes it clearly bdsm or fetish or at least anachronistic freakshow in my mind. As to which of
those, it's kind of unclear. In modern english it would be bdsm/fetish, unless knowingly
anachronistic.

Clear and Obvious?

Posted Nov 28, 2009 16:12 UTC (Sat) by halla (subscriber, #14185) [Link] (1 responses)

No, the name is "gimp", not "the gimp".

Clear and Obvious?

Posted Nov 29, 2009 22:17 UTC (Sun) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link]

Feel free to go back and read the names used in the early days of the project.

Clear and Obvious?

Posted Nov 29, 2009 18:02 UTC (Sun) by MattPerry (guest, #46341) [Link]

> I don't believe the term for the program means anything other than what
> the authors state: GNU Image Manipulation Program.

Let me clarify this sentence. I don't believe the authors intended meaning of the term as applied to the program means anything other than what the authors state: GNU Image Manipulation Program.

Clear and Obvious?

Posted Dec 3, 2009 1:18 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] (2 responses)

> Apparently they were attempting to troll me.

Nah. If anything, I fell for the bait.

Clear and Obvious?

Posted Dec 3, 2009 1:55 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] (1 responses)

Well, I've just emailed LWN to ask them to euthanise my account. I'm sick of being accused of trolling by someone (a) who ticks the boxes far better than me, (b) whose bait I've just swallowed hook, line and sinker because I don't have the social skills to see past the worm. And since that pretty much means I don't have the necessary social skills to participate in discussions on the internet (ain't autism grand?), I'm gone.

Clear and Obvious?

Posted Dec 4, 2009 1:55 UTC (Fri) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]

Good bye and have a nice time.
Judging from your behaviour in this discussion, you will not be missed.

Clear and Obvious?

Posted Dec 3, 2009 1:25 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link]

> "clear and obvious" seems a bit strong

As I tried to point out, this was intended to state my opinion, not make a positive claim. However, since MattPerry didn't feel the need to signpost his opinion, neither did I.

Imagine my surprise when it was met with a call for evidence!

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 28, 2009 16:00 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

In mine, spoken by, you know, the ENGLISH people, I've never even *heard* of it as being a word, let alone a pejorative term. I've only ever met it as this computer program (which, yes, I do find incredibly hard to use. But then, I find most image editing programs a nightmare because I just don't understand all the terms they use!)

What I want is a simple graphics program (PSP was great, if limited). What would be a great help is if the writers spent LESS time ADDING all these fancy features like beziers, splines, density, hue etc, and spent a bit more time explaining what they actually MEAN. I'm an old-fashioned film photographer, and I've got loads of digital (taken as digital, or scanned) photos with typical faults like colour casts, underexposed, etc, but it seems NONE of the documentation is written in terms I can understand. So when I try and correct the faults, I can't understand what the program is doing or why.

And that's why I just *don't* *bother*!

(NB, professionally I'm a programmer, so I do know how to use computers :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 7:42 UTC (Thu) by scottt (subscriber, #5028) [Link] (4 responses)

Out of curiosity, how would you explain the name "f-spot"?

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 7:55 UTC (Thu) by jengelh (subscriber, #33263) [Link]

The F-Spot name is not any better though. It always reminds me of F-Prot.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 8:49 UTC (Thu) by alexl (guest, #19068) [Link]

Isn't it a pun on "f-stop" (a camera term)

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 18:10 UTC (Thu) by MattPerry (guest, #46341) [Link]

> Out of curiosity, how would you explain the name "f-spot"?

I assume it's a misspelling of f-stop, which is a common term in photography. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-number. The original developer was Italian, so maybe the Italian term for f-stop best translates to English as f-spot as opposed to f-stop. I don't speak Italian so I don't know if this is the case.

Sure, Isn't the meaning obvious?

Posted Nov 26, 2009 23:14 UTC (Thu) by gbutler69 (guest, #54063) [Link]

F-Spot = FUCK SPOT! It's kinda like G-Spot, right? Right?

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 7:56 UTC (Thu) by jengelh (subscriber, #33263) [Link]

>In the English language, it's an offensive term used to describe a person with a physical disability. It's much like calling a dwarf a midget, or a black person a nigger.

But! GIMP was not meant to be as offensive a name as Git was.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 30, 2009 16:06 UTC (Mon) by jordanb (guest, #45668) [Link]

> It doesn't have the same level of offense as the latter, but it still is viewed as a negative term where I live (United States) and is unacceptable language to use in public discourse.

[...]

> I've encountered several people who refused to even download it due to the name. My current excuse is to tell people that it's an acronym created by people who do not speak English as their native language. That seems to be a suitable explanation but first impressions count and by that point I don't know if any damage has already been done.

I'm not sure what part of the United States you live in, but here in Chicago "gimp" has the capability of being mildly offensive --- but in a quaint way. I've never gotten anything more than a chuckle out of someone when showing them The GIMP, and they've always been satisfied when I say it's an acronym.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 19:22 UTC (Thu) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link] (1 responses)

> Congrats to them for dropping a package whose name is a pejorative term for disabled people. I know that's not the reason why they did it, but it makes marketing Ubuntu much less awkward.

GNOME is also a pejorative term for disabled people.

Delightful

Posted Nov 26, 2009 23:38 UTC (Thu) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Thanks for the laugh.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 27, 2009 10:51 UTC (Fri) by error27 (subscriber, #8346) [Link] (1 responses)

~$ dict gimp
3 definitions found

From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 [gcide]:

Gimp \Gimp\, a. [W. gwymp fair, neat, comely.]
Smart; spruce; trim; nice. [Obs. or Prov. Eng.]
[1913 Webster]

From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 [gcide]:

Gimp \Gimp\, n. [OF. guimpe, guimple, a nun's wimple, F. guimpe,
OHG. wimpal a veil G. wimpel pennon, pendant. See {Wimple}, n.]
A narrow ornamental fabric of silk, woolen, or cotton, often
with a metallic wire, or sometimes a coarse cord, running
through it; -- used as trimming for dresses, furniture, etc.
[1913 Webster]

Gimp nail, an upholsterer's small nail.
[1913 Webster]

From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 [gcide]:

Gimp \Gimp\, v. t.
To notch; to indent; to jag.
[1913 Webster]
$

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 27, 2009 12:41 UTC (Fri) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]

Well people don't read dict.
They watch TV and in Pulp Fiction a Gimp is something very different.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 25, 2009 23:26 UTC (Wed) by csigler (subscriber, #1224) [Link] (2 responses)

Nobody has commented on this???:

> ... a niche professional graphics editing tool....

_That's_ the $64,000 quote. They declare GIMP to be a professional tool! -- even though there'll always be Photoshop users who say GIMP's interface is amateur hour. It's _so_ professional, in fact, that it's only a niche product. I think that's pretty neat.

Clemmitt

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 2:52 UTC (Thu) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (1 responses)

Arstechnica has always been fairly friendly towards linux stuff even though
they cover all technology stuff and have a wide variety of viewpoints in
their staff. (some of them really like Microsoft stuff while others are big
Mac fans, etc)

On a couple of occasions they went into rather in-depth reviews and howtos
involving Gimp. For example they did a tutorial on doing photographic
editing and touch-up and did steps for both photoshop and gimp side by
side. (more or less)

It did a decent enough job of letting you know how professionals could
really use it and what things hurt it. For example some (rather basic)
editing techniques worked great in photoshop, but caused artifacts to
appear in the photo using Gimp. This was due entirely to the lack of RGBA
16bit color depth in Gimp. But otherwise it was able to do most of what
Photoshop could of done.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 30, 2009 16:24 UTC (Mon) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]

From what I've seen, Ryan Paul (aka segphault) is friendly toward Linux; the rest range between indifferent and outright hostile. Is why I'm subscribed here but not there. Well, that, and their one-man Linux coverage doesn't cover very much, especially in relation to their extensive Apple and Microsoft coverage.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 0:09 UTC (Thu) by freemars (subscriber, #4235) [Link] (1 responses)

Maybe getting kicked out of the default Ubuntu install will scare Gimp's developers into pushing forward with some long-needed improvements, particularly adding more bits per pixel. Images rapidly degrade if you try to use the color correction tools, which is pretty bad for a self-proclaimed Image Manipulation Program.

Giving up the GIMP is a sign of Ubuntu's mainstream maturity (ars technica)

Posted Nov 26, 2009 0:25 UTC (Thu) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]

I'm pretty sure that sort of feature enhancement falls on the "professional" tool side of the argument and will not in fact get gimp back in.

You should really watch the UDS video of the discussion to get the full context of what is going on.

The reality is there wasn't a silver bullet application to fill an ill-defined functionality role Ubuntu developers want to see. They essentially want a tool with picasa's featureset and ease-of-use though they never actually come out and say that. We don't have that tool in the open ecosystem. What exists is a number of applications that implement some subset of the desired (and unspecified) target featureset.

Whatever role gimp fills in terms of functionality is meant to fill it is not photo management. Yes, people use it for that purpose..but only because there's nothing more targeted that does the job better. It's like using my mitre saw to slice my homemade bread.

-jef

Giving up the GIMP and inadequate bug track system.

Posted Nov 26, 2009 2:59 UTC (Thu) by tdwebste (guest, #18154) [Link] (1 responses)

Mono blot wear is what really needs to go. And worse mono leaks memory.
I find FSPOT virtually useless for most my image needs and I prefer non-mono applications.

I was disheartened when ubuntu removed apt-listbugs after hardy. Ubuntu needs to accept that tracking bugs by package version is required. And tracking package bugs by ubuntu release version is useless and does not integrate will with upstream. If launchpad cannot track bugs by package version perhaps it is time for ubuntu to adopt debian bts for bug tracking instead. This would definitely facility bug reporting and upstream integration, which is currently a ubuntu weak area.

It is unfortunate that Ubuntu has complete bought into mono. We clearly need a ubuntu gnome derivative that is free of mono blot.

Mono - Irony

Posted Nov 26, 2009 16:31 UTC (Thu) by roblucid (guest, #48964) [Link]

Ironically mono's not installed now by default in openSUSE 11.2 (KDE pre-selected). Fallout from past issues with beagle & kerry probably lead to that.

And what about digiKam?

Posted Nov 26, 2009 9:32 UTC (Thu) by mjthayer (guest, #39183) [Link] (7 responses)

One of the main complaints about this seems to be that the obvious replacement - F-Spot - is a Mono application. However, there is another candidate: digiKam. Perhaps some of the people who feel sufficiently strongly about Mono should be looking to see if they could port digiKam to use Gnome instead of KDE? This wouldn't necessarily mean using Gtk+ instead of Qt, as Qt can fit in pretty well in a Gnome desktop these days. And it would be a great precedent for cross-desktop co-operation.

And what about digiKam?

Posted Nov 26, 2009 9:35 UTC (Thu) by mjthayer (guest, #39183) [Link] (3 responses)

Additional thought - perhaps it would even be possible to engage Nokia's enthusiasm about this? I'm sure that the additional visibility of having Qt as part of a default Ubuntu install, with the resulting additional coverage and potentially code contributions, would not harm them.

And what about digiKam?

Posted Nov 26, 2009 17:07 UTC (Thu) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link] (2 responses)

> I'm sure that the additional visibility of having Qt as part of a
default Ubuntu install

I think Qt is already part of the default install, unless Ubuntu is no
longer one of the LSB certified distributions.

And what about digiKam?

Posted Nov 26, 2009 17:16 UTC (Thu) by mjthayer (guest, #39183) [Link] (1 responses)

A cleanish install of Karmic in a VM here doesn't have it. (The host system does in order to run VirtualBox).

And what about digiKam?

Posted Nov 26, 2009 17:21 UTC (Thu) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link]

Ah, interesting.

A quick check confirms that the last version which was LSB compliant
enought for certification was 6.06
http://www.linuxfoundation.org/en/LSB_Distribution_Status

Yes, digiKam

Posted Nov 26, 2009 12:04 UTC (Thu) by freemars (subscriber, #4235) [Link] (1 responses)

I've been using digiKam with my Gnome installation, and the only modification I've had to do is change the permissions on my serial port to be able to talk to my clunker digital camera. Other than that one minor flaw it installs and runs just fine.

Yes, digiKam

Posted Nov 26, 2009 12:54 UTC (Thu) by mjthayer (guest, #39183) [Link]

I was thinking more on the lines of changing it so that it uses Gnome libraries instead of pulling in all the KDE libraries, which would be a bit of a biggy (one or two hundred megs) for the Ubuntu live CD. Or better, so that it uses cross-desktop-platform libraries that will interface with either. As in "there is no problem in computing that you can't solve with another layer of indirection" :)

And what about digiKam?

Posted Nov 27, 2009 14:17 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

This wouldn't necessarily mean using Gtk+ instead of Qt, as Qt can fit in pretty well in a Gnome desktop these days. And it would be a great precedent for cross-desktop co-operation.

Now that the Qt licensing even supports the fantasy licensing model of various corporate GNOME advocates - the insistence that "ISVs" (you can deduce enough about the mindset from the mere use of such a term) would only write proprietary software using "suitably licensed" libraries, despite the predominance of Qt-based applications in that particular scene (from companies who presumably didn't mind putting up a bit of cash to deliver the goods) - perhaps GNOME's days are numbered and the time of desktop convergence is upon us, at least as far as the heavyweight desktop environments are concerned.

Such thoughts might seem somewhat provocative, but given that the last time I looked at what the most visible GNOME developers were up to, using their blogs as evidence (naturally), everyone's energy appeared to be focused either on choosing the victim of some witch-hunt or other - the victim of the day being Mark Shuttleworth on the most recent occasion - or on upholding Miguel de Icaza's supposedly curtailed "freedom" - where a curtailment of such freedom is apparently someone criticising someone else.

At least the KDE developers exhibit apparently genuine enthusiasm about the actual technology, which must be why digiKam is as good as it is. And Gwenview is pretty nice, too.

Don't worry, it is still available for install !

Posted Nov 26, 2009 13:33 UTC (Thu) by isabellf (guest, #16347) [Link]

Don't forget to read to whole story :

"It's important to understand that the GIMP will still be in Ubuntu's repositories where it will be easily accessible to users who want to install it through the package management system."

That was a relief to me at least...