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Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Moblin Zone has a lengthy justification for Intel's GMA500 (aka "Poulsbo") graphics hardware. The post is in response to a Linux Journal article that lambasted Intel for "kicking its friends in the face" by using hardware that requires closed drivers. Essentially, Moblin Zone argues that Intel was targeting the device, not computer, market with "Menlow" (which includes the Poulsbo hardware). "Not only is there no significant penalty for closed drivers in the device world, sometimes, they work out better. There's a business advantage, in terms of vendor lock-in. If I'm a chip maker, my customer has to come back to me for a new driver or source-level license (with non-disclosure agreement) when they begin working on a new product model, or a firmware upgrade. In the thin-margin world of device parts, that kind of ongoing revenue stream might make the difference between getting by or having to lay off engineers."

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Communication would have been everything...

Posted Oct 28, 2009 13:33 UTC (Wed) by sebas (guest, #51660) [Link] (4 responses)

I think Intel has disappointed quite some Free Software users that bought an Intel chip because that seemed like a safe way to get well-supported graphics on Linux. With the GMA500/Poulsbo, this has not been true in two ways:

(1) The driver is not open, bringing problems like graphics not working out of the box post-install, not being able to do kernel upgrades at any given time and developers refusing to provide support.

(2) The driver actually doesn't work well, compositing doesn't seem to be supported, not to mention things like KMS that work already with the open drivers.

Intel would probably have done good communicating more clearly that if you're looking for something that's well supported on Free OS'en, this Poulsbo thing is *NOT* what you want and thereby managing expectations of those who are disgruntled now because they bought the wrong hardware, often a notebook which can only be replaced as a whole.

This in turn has nothing to do with blaming the /bad, bad real world/, the market, or anybody else besides Intel themselves. It's simply a matter of miscommunication on Intel's side who have been bragging with their (indeed very good!) support for Free systems such as Linux. The article itself seems like an apologist write-up for something Intel has screwed up themselves.

Communication would have been everything...

Posted Oct 28, 2009 13:44 UTC (Wed) by xav (guest, #18536) [Link] (2 responses)

3) there's no easy way to know if the laptop you're going to buy has "Poulsbo Inside" or not, therefore it's undermining their whole work about having Intel gfx devices work out-of-the-box with Linux.

Communication would have been everything...

Posted Oct 28, 2009 14:10 UTC (Wed) by weryk (guest, #61592) [Link] (1 responses)

Are there other graphics besides GMA 500 with it ?

Communication would have been everything...

Posted Oct 28, 2009 15:42 UTC (Wed) by hmh (subscriber, #3838) [Link]

You can have Atom CPUs paired with acceptable chipsets, yes. It is just that you will have a HELL of a time trying to find out if you're not buying crap instead of a good product (good product being defined as "something that doesn't have GMA500 inside") just from a look at the cover.

Communication would have been everything...

Posted Oct 28, 2009 14:10 UTC (Wed) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]

I have a computer with one of these GMA500 cards. I use the free driver and X works. The resolution is less than the card is capable of and there's some lag that probably isn't necessary, but I'll wait for the free driver to improve rather than use their binary blob.

Apologist Central

Posted Oct 28, 2009 13:46 UTC (Wed) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] (1 responses)

We see it all in that "justification": that two almost identical things are "different" because one of them is a "device" (which apparently means that you throw it away when there's something newer or when you get bored of it), the awe of all that is shiny (with added car analogies!), excuses for Intel's inadequacies on the graphics front, the argument that "patents make us do things but it's an advantage".

This must be an attempt on the largest company ever to blame circumstances for their behaviour despite having actively worked to bring those circumstances about. When Nokia does this, to take a recent example of a company scrutinised for a lack of openness, I'm sure that people think that, "Well, they don't really make their own chipsets, do they? So let's give them the benefit of the doubt." When the largest player in the semiconductor business sings the same tune, their credibility evaporates in a cloud of either deceit or ineptitude.

"Executives might see that as letting them spend more on engineers, and less on attorneys." That's the apology for closed source, NDA-regulated development in the article. How about Intel actively helping to eradicate software patents, so that the whole industry can spend less on attorneys? I await the usual excuse-filled response from yet another industry player with a vested interest in the perpetuation and expansion of the corrupt patent regime.

Apologist Central

Posted Oct 28, 2009 14:26 UTC (Wed) by TRS-80 (guest, #1804) [Link]

Yeah, it's not a "PC-like device", it's a computer, plain and simple.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 14:06 UTC (Wed) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link]

"In the thin-margin world of device parts, that kind of ongoing revenue stream might make the difference between getting by or having to lay off engineers."

Broken window fallacy. Praising inefficiency and obstruction of the free market for its extra employment of engineers.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 14:12 UTC (Wed) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link]

All I know is that I won't be buying a computer with Intel graphics as long as Poulsbo is in the picture. With NVIDIA or ATI, I know that it works. I don't want to take the time to investigate which of the Intel graphics computers have this Poulsbo crap.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 14:15 UTC (Wed) by isabellf (guest, #16347) [Link] (2 responses)

I don't think you should post links to anonymous blog posts, especially if they are full of crap.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 17:48 UTC (Wed) by daniels (subscriber, #16193) [Link]

I wouldn't go so far as to call it anonymous: the privacy policy page quite clearly states Intel Corporation.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 30, 2009 5:57 UTC (Fri) by Los__D (guest, #15263) [Link]

The page quite clearly states "by Henry Kingman"

Am I missing something, or has it been added later?

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 14:15 UTC (Wed) by fuhchee (guest, #40059) [Link]

Considering the anonymous author and the lack of feedback means over at "moblin zone", one wonders how controversial Intel + Linux Foundation think that this statement was.

"no significant penalty for closed drivers in the device world", ORLY?

Posted Oct 28, 2009 14:17 UTC (Wed) by alex (subscriber, #1355) [Link] (2 responses)

Certainly whenever I've specced hardware or offered an opinion on one chipset over another for an embedded project the lack of open source drivers is a big black mark against using it. Chipset vendors have a habit of loosing interest in their old designs which you may need to support in your device for a much longer time. Having access to the source code for the driver (and decent documentation, NDA'd if it must be) gives me confidence I can continue to support the device without the help of the vendor if need be.

Cypress did drivers right

Posted Oct 28, 2009 15:43 UTC (Wed) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link]

As soon as Cypress Semiconductor, run by T.J. Rodgers, started doing GPL drivers, it was pretty much game over for business justification of making customers' lives harder by doing it the other way. This guy's pro-free-market essays definitely outclass anything the proprietary driver apologists can come up with.

"no significant penalty for closed drivers in the device world", ORLY?

Posted Oct 29, 2009 1:00 UTC (Thu) by brouhaha (subscriber, #1698) [Link]

I'd be far happier if chipset vendors were loosing interest in their older parts. Unfortunately, instead most vendors generally are losing interest in them. ATI in the last few years has been very supporting, in that once they started losing interest in the R300-R500, they also started loosing interest in them, providing the docs to the open source driver developers and eventually to the public.

I was very much hoping that with ATI supporting open source development, and Intel supporting open source development on all their graphics hardware other than the GMA500, that Nvidia would follow suit. Unfortunately Nvidia's corporate culture of hostility to open source seems to be too deeply ingrained. As a result, I always buy systems with ATI graphics, or Intel (but not GMA500), and I always recommend those to others.

BS Central

Posted Oct 28, 2009 14:32 UTC (Wed) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link] (7 responses)

Yay for promoting crappy closed drivers, thanks Intel.

Tripple-A (AMD/ATI/ARM) all the way for me from now on.

BS Central

Posted Oct 28, 2009 14:37 UTC (Wed) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link] (6 responses)

Any ARM devices that don't use PowerVR?

What about VIA?

BS Central

Posted Oct 28, 2009 17:06 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (5 responses)

There are ARMs that don't use PowerVR (Qualcomm, for instance), but there aren't (as far as I know) any that use 3D cores with open drivers or documentation.

BS Central

Posted Oct 28, 2009 19:09 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (3 responses)

Yes.. this is a major form of suckage when it comes to ARM systems.

BS Central

Posted Oct 28, 2009 19:21 UTC (Wed) by endecotp (guest, #36428) [Link] (2 responses)

Anyone know anything about ARM's "mali" graphics core?

BS Central

Posted Oct 28, 2009 19:23 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (1 responses)

Last time I checked, they planned on releasing closed drivers and no docs.

BS Central

Posted Oct 28, 2009 22:51 UTC (Wed) by endecotp (guest, #36428) [Link]

Shame. They could use open drivers as a distinguishing feature, if they wanted. I don't see many other complaints about the Power VR stuff anywhere, so quite why they want to compete with it is not clear to me.

BS Central

Posted Oct 29, 2009 8:36 UTC (Thu) by nhippi (subscriber, #34640) [Link]

Samsung S3C6410 (667Mhz arm11) comes with a open 3d module, all the registers for the 3d part are documented in the reference manual. Now, the challenge is getting samsung to hand you over the manual...

Unfortunately Samsung is ditching their (presumably homegrown) 3d and going PowerVR for future generations.

The PowerVR approach (open kernel driver and closed libGLES) wouldn't be that bad, if the closed userspace libraries were REDISTRIBUTABLE!!!!

The other contenders in mobile 3d (Vivante, Arm Mali, nvidia tegra) are just as bad.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 16:00 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

This article spends a lot of words twisting and contorting to imply that Poulsbo was a good design decision. A lot of appeal to emotion, a bunch of hypotheticals, very little in the way of facts. Maybe it was written by Rod Blagojevich?

Intel, next time you make a mistake, it's best to either own up to it or let it slip quietly away. Long, poorly organized justification pieces like this just make you look bad.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 17:41 UTC (Wed) by nwnk (guest, #52271) [Link] (5 responses)

Not only is this anonymous, it's astroturfing. moblinzone.com, though registered through a proxy, is very clearly an Intel property. The privacy policy and T&C's list Intel Corporation in Santa Clara as the contact point.

I'm disappointed that Intel has an inconsistent commitment to open driver support. That's their business choice, I don't have to like it, and that's fine. But I'm offended that they invent sockpuppets to sympathize with their position. It's not much better than lying to my face.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 18:02 UTC (Wed) by nwnk (guest, #52271) [Link] (4 responses)

I should clarify. The direct article link appears to have no byline, even though the main page does. So it's not especially anonymous, but I stand by the astroturf bit.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 19:04 UTC (Wed) by pharm (guest, #22305) [Link] (3 responses)

This shouldn't be surprising: moblin is an Intel produced Linux distribution after all. Most of the moblin sites are Intel derived I believe.

The whole Pouslbo thing is a classic left hand / right hand big company stuff up. Odds on nobody thought to insist on open drivers when the chipset was being put together because it was a different group to the main PC chipset developers & now they're trying to do PR damage control after the fact because there's nothing they can do about the hardware: it's already shipped.

It's a shame, because Intel was doing really well on the OSS support front otherwise, then they have to go and pull this little stunt.

never say never

Posted Oct 28, 2009 19:56 UTC (Wed) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

“there's nothing they can do about the hardware: it's already shipped.”

This is never quite true, I recall Sony shipped the eVilla "internet appliance" running BeIA. The device was horrid, a big mistaken toe dipped into very cold water, but lots of Be supporters thought that this was it - with Sony behind it, this market's going to take off like wildfire, and even if it doesn't, Sony will have to ensure Be stick around to maintain the software... and then Sony not only ordered stock returned from stores, they sent every single customer an offer of a full refund including shipping.

Intel don't care enough about Free Software to order a recall of Poulsbo. But it's wrong to imagine that was not an option, the fact that they don't care is a measure of how relatively unimportant the Free Software lobby is. We can get what we want, but only sometimes, and only if it's not too expensive.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 21:21 UTC (Wed) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link] (1 responses)

"It's a shame, because Intel was doing really well on the OSS support front otherwise, then they have to go and pull this little stunt."

The really interesting thing is that since intel employs the many of the head honchos in the free software graphics world, we won't get to hear what they really think about GMA500.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 29, 2009 0:53 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Ah, that's OK, most of the rest are employed by AMD, and AMD really
doesn't mind saying nasty things about Intel at *all*.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 19:09 UTC (Wed) by LinuxDevices (guest, #51613) [Link] (14 responses)

Howdy, author Henry here. Yep, MoblinZone is astroturfing. But, it's also paying my bills during a career transition. And, they let me write whatever I want, and it's about Linux, so what the heck.

I edited LinuxDevices for six years, so I know a thing or two about closed drivers in the embedded world. No one at Intel suggested I write about this topic. In fact, I'm sure I'll get in trouble over it. But, it's something I feel needs to be clarified, because too many Linux folks buy these Poulsbo devices and then learn too late of the graphics driver issue. Heck, I know -- I was one of 'em.

Still don't think it's Intel's fault, though. They have to use best-of-breed graphics, if they want to compete in this new market. And, it wasn't their decision that the drivers be closed. And, in that market, at that value point, it's hard to imagine the drivers being open. My own view, not that of Intel.

Cheers, thanks everyone for your feedback.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 20:07 UTC (Wed) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

Well, shucks, then.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 20:22 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

The article is wrong in several different ways:

* People do want to hack devices and hackable devices are very popular for that reason. Even vendors who sell routers are realizing it and marketing it as such.

* The proprietary portions are really the X bits rather than the kernel bits

* Intel contracted out the development of a proprietary driver. It was a choice and not some kind of free market law that they should do that. They definitely deserve to a share of that blame.

* I could before recommend any Linux user to just verify that it is a Intel chipset and be guaranteed that it would work out of the box well or atleast that bugs can be fixed by other people. The brand damage and loss of trust from this move is definitely going to hurt Intel considering things like ATI driver in Fedora 12 getting 3D support and Intel isn't the only vendor anymore to understand the benefits of free and open source drivers and good documentation for the hardware specs.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 20:37 UTC (Wed) by jejb (subscriber, #6654) [Link] (7 responses)

> I edited LinuxDevices for six years, so I know a thing or two about closed
> drivers in the embedded world. No one at Intel suggested I write about
> this topic. In fact, I'm sure I'll get in trouble over it. But, it's
> something I feel needs to be clarified, because too many Linux folks buy
> these Poulsbo devices and then learn too late of the graphics driver
> issue. Heck, I know -- I was one of 'em.

I think there are two issues here. The first, as you say, is the damage done to the impression we all created that intel graphics was the safe default choice for a desktop that just worked. The problem is that there are many articles available on the internet stating this and suddenly its no longer true ... unfortunately, we can't erase the articles, so many people buy the hardware expecting it to work and get annoyed when it doesn't. Intel actively encouraged the creation of that impression, so they share some of the blame for making it a lie.

The second issue is your contention that binary drivers are appropriate for some markets (and even beneficial for some products). I could do a lengthy refutation, but I think the words of an intel engineer are more eloquent in this situation:

http://lwn.net/Articles/162686/

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 23:48 UTC (Wed) by LinuxDevices (guest, #51613) [Link] (1 responses)

Hey, no one's arguing that open drivers have their advantages, even for device developers. As the PC world and device world collide, I'm certain that'll be one of the benefits. We just ain't there quite yet. The device world has a lot to learn from the openness of the PC market, that's for sure.

Oh, say, that reminds me... are there any open source implementations of OpenGL ES yet, or is everyone still waiting for Nokia to do it? Dunno if it's true, but I've heard it sort of implied once or twice that that might free the way to open drivers for this sort of hardware IP.

Stumbling toward efficiency,

-Henry

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 29, 2009 1:59 UTC (Thu) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

There are several free OpenGL ES implementations (including the reference implementation - MIT-licensed), the latest is the OpenGL ES Gallium3D state tracker in Mesa IIRC.

http://www.khronos.org/developers/resources/opengles/
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nz...

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 30, 2009 17:45 UTC (Fri) by LinuxDevices (guest, #51613) [Link] (4 responses)

Hah, oh yeah, Arjen...

I'll see your Intel engineer, and raise you a Linus.

If I write a driver, I might have good reasons for keeping it closed (companies do). Or, I might have no reason at all. But at the end of the day, the code is my property, and it's my decision to make.

That was pretty much Linus's line of thinking, if I recall correctly, in deciding to tolerate binary drivers: he wasn't comfortable telling people what they had to do with *their* code.

Had Linus decided differently, I have no doubt that Linux would not be top device OS today. Razor thin margins and feverishly paced product development cycles aren't that conducive to code license audits and kicking changes up to the kernel mailing list. I haven't seen them myself, but have heard from reliable sources that the third-world engineering sweatshops feeding our collective consumer lust have quite a tartarus-of-maids-like atmosphere. [Reference: http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/MelPara.html]

Andrew Morton and the embedded maintainers are doing a great job educating device companies that over the longer view, *in cases where an OS update -- either by the company or users -- is likely down the road*, there can be technical advantages of doing exactly that. But it's an ongoing process.

I think it's great that so many of the posters here on this list understand that from a technical point of view, closed drivers *are* evil. Yet, if you believe in individual property rights, they're kind of a necessary one.

-Hick-from-the-sticks Hank

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 30, 2009 18:10 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

Had Linus decided differently, I have no doubt that Linux would not be top device OS today.

So why isn't NetBSD more popular, to take an example of a credible alternative? I remember in 1994 or so when a bunch of people decided to port a free Unix variant to ARM (on the Acorn Risc PC - a convenient target environment) that the first choice was indeed NetBSD; this formed the basis of Oracle's second generation network computer, supposedly. As I recall, ARM Linux landed after RiscBSD (the port of NetBSD, later known as the acorn32 port), yet you'd be fortunate to find many of the embedded ARM board vendors pushing NetBSD instead of Linux, or even offering it as an option.

If one bought into the tiresome arguments about vibrant big-money development only being supported by permissive licensing, one would have to look away from the success of Linux and how stuff like NetBSD has been largely ignored.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 30, 2009 18:32 UTC (Fri) by jejb (subscriber, #6654) [Link]

> That was pretty much Linus's line of thinking, if I recall correctly, in
> deciding to tolerate binary drivers: he wasn't comfortable telling people
> what they had to do with *their* code.

Erm, actually not really. There have been many clarifications to this; e.g. here:

http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0312.0/067...

The bottom line is that for Linus to be happy with a binary module it mustn't be a derived work of linux; specifically must not be designed for linux or poke about with linux internals.

> If I write a driver, I might have good reasons for keeping it closed
> (companies do). Or, I might have no reason at all. But at the end of the
> day, the code is my property, and it's my decision to make.

Actually no: the code is only your property if it's not derivative of anything else. If you derive, you have to comply with the licence allowing that (in this case the GPL). What constitutes derivation is a fairly nebulous legal question, but you'll see in the above that Linus thinks it's anything designed to fit in with Linux kernel interfaces. That's pretty much every linux driver out there in the embedded space.

> I think it's great that so many of the posters here on this list
> understand that from a technical point of view, closed drivers *are*
> evil. Yet, if you believe in individual property rights, they're kind of
> a necessary one.

The property rights vs open source is a bit of a false dichotomy. The only way you can comply fully with the GPL without worrying about derivation problems is not to distribute anything based on your changes. The problem with that legally sound approach is that no distribution means no return on investment, even though it absolutely preserves your perceived rights of the code creator.

The object of a modern business isn't preserving individual property rights, it's achieving ROI.

When phrased correctly like this, I think one can make a convincing argument that, even ignoring the costs of the legal risk associated with being closed source, one can achieve more ROI by open sourcing drivers than by keeping them closed. In the case of the GMA500, part of that actual cost was the lack of a "just works" factor that caused market confusion leading to product returns.

Razor thin

Posted Oct 30, 2009 20:18 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

The "razor thin margins" argument is a bit tired. First, consumer products everywhere face the same margins which is why they are sold by the million -- and why those margins are converted into gigantic profits. A 9% profit in a bad year is not so bad.

And second, the costs faced by companies doing code audits were analyzed by LWN.net in a recent series, and they were of the order of thousands of €. Not millions, not tens of thousands. The argument could still be made for specialized hardware that sells a few units, but this kind of money is hardly relevant when you sell several million units like Intel -- say, for this horrid Poulsbo thing.

Another tired argument: posting your patches to lkml (or xorg lists) is in no way required in the Free software world, although it can be an advantage in the long run. But these engineering sweatshops just need to post the code somewhere under an appropriate license; if there is enough interest (and in this case I'm sure there is) it will find its way upstream in no time. Anything is better than a closed, proprietary driver.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Dec 15, 2009 14:36 UTC (Tue) by jmcvetta (guest, #62509) [Link]

I think it's great that so many of the posters here on this list understand that from a technical point of view, closed drivers *are* evil. Yet, if you believe in individual property rights, they're kind of a necessary one.
There are an awful lot of people who do believe in individual property rights; yet don't think intellectual monopoly privileges granted by the government to corporations have any similarity whatsoever to the conventional meaning of 'property'.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 20:53 UTC (Wed) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link]

So do you really believe that no one ever wants the legal right to repair their toaster on their own or by an electrician? I have repaired mine, my dad repaired it also 30 years earlier. If it were software, and we had repaired your closed driver device instead of a toaster, we both would have committed illegal acts. You do not lend the appearance of understanding what you are talking about if you can't see that proprietary software is way worse than any "non user serviceable hardware". Just because you likely never go under the hood of your car doesn't mean it's OK to outlaw it.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 21:37 UTC (Wed) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link]

"And, they let me write whatever I want, and it's about Linux, so what the heck."

Is that really true? Would they have been fine with you writing an article taking the contrary position?

"I edited LinuxDevices for six years"

I'm a bit disappointed then - I love linuxdevices.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 22:28 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (1 responses)

Hi Henry.

> And, it wasn't their decision that the drivers be closed.

If it wasn't Intel's decision, then whose was it? It sounds almost like you want us to believe poor Intel was muscled around by Imagination Technologies??

Intel shipped a broken product and now you're trying to pretend like they had no alternative and that it's somehow someone else's fault. They're a gigantic and influential company -- they definitely could have written their own terms in the deal.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 29, 2009 0:13 UTC (Thu) by LinuxDevices (guest, #51613) [Link]

Well, I don't know... I hear there's pretty good volume in iPhones and the like these days. Apple and Intel both own little chunks of ImgTec, but no where near a controlling interest.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 28, 2009 20:59 UTC (Wed) by Trelane (guest, #56877) [Link]

There's a followup from LJ: http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/more-poulsbo-gma500-i...
(Update 2 on the original LJ article)

Blame not us, blame the market

Posted Oct 28, 2009 23:49 UTC (Wed) by kunitz (subscriber, #3965) [Link]

The truth appears to be that Intel doesn't have the rights to write a driver (open-source or not) for the Paulsbo chip. Probably this would have become to expensive.

Intel has no good product platform in the GPU market. While they still sell the largest number of desktop graphics chips, they appear not to have any marketable chips for the high-performance and low-power segments. People, who are interested, will find rumors about the reasons using the keywords Gelsinger and Larrabee.

So the Paulsbo chip was used to keep AMD at bay in the netbook market. We will not know, how much discussions they had about the Linux segment, but it seems that they at least bought the binary driver working on Ubuntu 8.04. There are people, called senior managers, that earn a lot of money for taking such decisions. Annoying people comes with the job, even if they would never admit it publicly or take the blame for it. Be warned they are trained in such denials and may even believe that the market forces them to behave this way. And nothing else we are told here.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 29, 2009 0:11 UTC (Thu) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

Linux developers working for Intel should go around to the cubicle of the person that wrote this and give him/her a smack around the ears.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 29, 2009 5:17 UTC (Thu) by cas (guest, #52554) [Link]

"If I'm a chip maker, my customer has to come back to me for a new driver or source-level license"

That is *precisely* what's wrong with proprietary drivers.

Vendor lock-in might be good for the supplier in the short term, but it's bad for the user. it can't be improved, it can't be fixed, it can't be supported by anyone but the vendor - and eventually not even the vendor as they lose interest in old technology and want everyone to upgrade to their shiny and new stuff.

Blaming Intel for how the world is (Moblin Zone)

Posted Oct 29, 2009 12:26 UTC (Thu) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link]

> "Not only is there no significant penalty for closed drivers in the device
> world, sometimes, they work out better. There's a business advantage, in
> terms of vendor lock-in. If I'm a chip maker, my customer has to come back
> to me for a new driver or source-level license (with non-disclosure
> agreement) when they begin working on a new product model, or a firmware
> upgrade. In the thin-margin world of device parts, that kind of ongoing
> revenue stream might make the difference between getting by or having to
> lay off engineers."

In the thin-margin world of device parts, customers are getting smarter.

In my experience, proprietary drivers are often poorly written to begin with. In many cases, nobody has ever audited the code (for security purposes or otherwise) or attempted to make it follow any recognizable coding standard. And there is a strong tendency to reinvent the wheel (in square form) because the code often interacts with the rest of the kernel through a horrible shim layer.

Proprietary drivers also tend to be poorly supported as time goes on. The vendor is often more interested in selling you a new product than a new driver for the old product. Obviously at some point, you have to revise your design to use the newer parts, because the older parts are no longer produced, or too obsolete. But that should be your decision to make.

And of course binary drivers lock you into using a specific kernel revision. This generally forces you to do tons and tons of backporting of the features you really want from head-of-line. This costs programmer time, i.e. money.

I think that eventually OEMs are going to come around to the reality that open source drivers are cheaper for them. At the end of the day, the economics argument doesn't make sense.

C.


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