Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software

[Posted September 25, 2009 by ris]

From:		Paul Wise <pabs3-AT-bonedaddy.net>
To:		lwn <lwn-AT-lwn.net>
Subject:		Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software!
Date:		Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:12:49 +0800
Message-ID:		<1253761969.26538.12.camel@chianamo>

Hi,

It would be really great if you could mention this on LWN:

http://bonedaddy.net/pabs3/log/2009/09/24/adobe-data-freed/
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2009/09/msg00039.html
http://twitter.com/#search?q=adobe%20cmap
http://opensource.adobe.com/wiki/display/site/2009/09/21/...

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://bonedaddy.net/pabs3/

to post comments

Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software

Posted Sep 26, 2009 5:34 UTC (Sat) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link] (12 responses)

...I don't understand how these were copyrightable in the first place. It's just a bunch of tables, that data contained in which is required for interoperability. (Maybe that's what Adobe's lawyers told them, so they decided to buy some goodwill?)

Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software

Posted Sep 27, 2009 2:48 UTC (Sun) by branden (guest, #7029) [Link] (11 responses)

From arguments on debian-legal years hence, I seem to recall that the
lists were probably not copyrightable in the United States, but they were
in Japan. That posed practical problems.

Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software

Posted Sep 27, 2009 13:24 UTC (Sun) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link] (10 responses)

You got the crystal ball driver working!

Or did you mean years *since*, or *ago*?

Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software

Posted Sep 27, 2009 20:51 UTC (Sun) by branden (guest, #7029) [Link] (9 responses)

According to my dictionary (American Heritage 4), "hence" means "from this
time", and does not imply a direction, which must be inferred from
context.

Or maybe I have just been reading too much Hawking lately and am getting
cavalier about the directionality of time... ;-)

Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software

Posted Sep 28, 2009 9:59 UTC (Mon) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] (8 responses)

I assure you that the convention is that something "years from now" or "years hence" is in the future. You are of course not obliged to obey this or any other convention of language, but you should expect others to be confused (one of my colleagues has taken to saying that a meeting has been "moved forward" to describe changing the start time of the meeting to a later time than originally intended, which conventionally would be called "pushed back" and he doesn't seem to grasp why this is confusing)

Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software

Posted Sep 28, 2009 22:58 UTC (Mon) by branden (guest, #7029) [Link] (1 responses)

For extra fun with denotational conventions, have a board meeting with
both speakers of American and Commonwealth varieties of English, and
employ the term "shelved".

Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software

Posted Sep 28, 2009 22:58 UTC (Mon) by branden (guest, #7029) [Link]

Er, I meant "tabled". :-)

Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software

Posted Sep 29, 2009 11:45 UTC (Tue) by Tuxie (guest, #47191) [Link] (5 responses)

I don't think that "moved forward" is confusing in this case as the meeting was moved forward in time. That it's a word-by-word translation of the same expression in my native language (Swedish) might help though. :)

Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software

Posted Sep 29, 2009 15:35 UTC (Tue) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link] (4 responses)

In English, to say that an event is 'moved forward' means that is is being made sooner. Think of it like the event is coming towards you; moving it forward means making it even closer.

Use of the phrase to mean 'delayed' is the direct opposite of what it usually means, and is virtually guaranteed to be misunderstood by almost every native English speaker, unless there is sufficient context to determine for certain that the original speaker used the phase in a non-canonical way.

Just another of those phrases that can't possibly be translated literally :P.

On the other hand, I think 'hence' in this case sounds okay, is probably not technically incorrect, and is unambiguous in this context, though it's not how the word is normally used...

Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software

Posted Sep 29, 2009 17:23 UTC (Tue) by Tuxie (guest, #47191) [Link] (3 responses)

I'm sure you're right about the correct usage in English but I still think it's confusing.

When I hear that an event has "moved forward" I think about a calendar where you "forward" a few pages and write down the event there instead. Or when you press "fast forward" on your tape recorder to move forward on the time line. Also, I see "moving an object forward" as pushing it further away in front of me.

This is the way the expression is used in Swedish and I believe it's used like this in many other languages also. Maybe your coworker's native language isn't English?

Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software

Posted Sep 29, 2009 18:48 UTC (Tue) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link] (2 responses)

English, like most languages, has two main metaphors for talking about time. There's one where events are static objects that we move past ("We're almost to Halloween", "We passed the deadline"), and one where we're static and events move past us ("Halloween is almost here", "The deadline went zooming by"). The weird thing about "moved forward" is that it's perfectly ambiguous between these two metaphors -- it could mean we moved the meeting in our direction of travel, i.e. future-ward, or that we moved it further in *its* direction of travel, i.e. past-ward.

If you go up to random English speakers and say "The meeting was on Wednesday, but it got moved forward two days; when is it now?", then
1) ~50% will say Monday, ~50% will say Friday
2) Many people will be very certain of their interpretation, and claim that anyone who gave the other answer is some sort of dork who doesn't speak English
3) If you ask them again later, after they've forgotten about this, then they may well give the other answer.

The answers you get also depend on whether people are moving when you ask the question: http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~lera/papers/mindbody.pdf

Also, the OED defines "hence" as "From this time onward...(At some time in the future) from now".

NOW YOU KNOW

Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software

Posted Sep 30, 2009 14:11 UTC (Wed) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link]

What a fascinating paper; thanks for the link. I can't think of any occasions when I've heard the phrase used the other way, but it's making me wonder if I have heard it after all, but completely failed to recognise it.

Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software

Posted Oct 2, 2009 19:23 UTC (Fri) by branden (guest, #7029) [Link]

Thanks for the OED cite. Despite being a logophile I have not yet elected
to pony up for it in paper or digital form.

I'll be perfectly happy to use the construction "years hither" in the
future (er...past?). Henceforth! ;-)

Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software

Posted Sep 26, 2009 5:45 UTC (Sat) by foka (subscriber, #6707) [Link]

Wow, that is really good news! Thank you for making it happen, Paul! Also special thanks to all the nice Adobe people for making it happen. :-) Anthony posting at Mini-DebConf 2009 in Taipei :-)

Adobe CMap and AGLFN data now free software

Posted Sep 28, 2009 13:25 UTC (Mon) by eparis123 (guest, #59739) [Link]

Might be a stupid question, but what are those for?