Dell: Linux netbook returns a "non-issue" (ZDNet) [LWN.net]

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes covers comments on netbook returns by Dell's Todd Finch on a ZDNet blog. "According to uber-OEM Dell, the whole debate about Linux netbook returns is a non-issue. Speaking at OpenSource World, a Dell executive deflated Microsofts enthusiasm for making a case out of the number of Linux netbooks returned by unhappy customers. Todd Finch, Dell senior product marketing manager, said the number of Linux returns are approximately the same as those for Windows netbooks. He categorized the matter of returns as a non-issue. Finch went on to say that Microsoft are making something of nothing."

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What sticks to walls, and what throws it?

Posted Aug 13, 2009 20:08 UTC (Thu) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link] (11 responses)

Microsoft threw it at the wall to see if it would stick. It did stick, for a bit, before it slid down.

What sticks to walls, and what throws it?

Posted Aug 13, 2009 20:37 UTC (Thu) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Well the original source of this sort of thinking was from the a MSI guy talking about the high return rates of Asus EEE PCs (their direct competitor) a few days before MSI launched their own Linux Netbook product, the "MSI Wind".

http://blog.laptopmag.com/msi-wind-coming-to-major-retail...

What sticks to walls, and what throws it?

Posted Aug 13, 2009 21:38 UTC (Thu) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link] (8 responses)

On the contrary. One thing I have noticed about the comments on sites on which the story has been reported, there have been a remarkable number of commenters being over backward, and performing logical contortions of alarming complexity, in order to claim that Mr. Finch was not saying what any any sane and unbiased person would conclude that he was saying. There seem to be a lot of people out to spin this in a very negative way for Linux. Normally, when people speak of astroturfing, I can't help but wonder about their grips upon reality. But this time, *I* find myself wondering just who may really be on who's marketing department's payroll. Or, at least, what unhealthily strong biases they may have for whatever reasons.

What sticks to walls, and what throws it?

Posted Aug 13, 2009 21:59 UTC (Thu) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (4 responses)

There are actually a lot of Windows fanboys out there. They just refuse to admit it to themselves. (How can they be fanboys when everybody agrees with themn since Windows has 95% market penetration?!)

What sticks to walls, and what throws it?

Posted Aug 13, 2009 22:12 UTC (Thu) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link] (3 responses)

Honestly, drag, I think that Windows fanboys are largely created by... Mac and Linux fanboys. I think that our well-meaning fanboys, who think they are doing so much good, annoy *some* Windows users enough to turn them from neutral observers into active enemies. (Granted, the latent tendency probably already has to exist within the Windows user.)

It is far easier to create enemies than friends. And it is easier to destroy than to create. A single enemy can do more harm than 10 friends can offset. Which is why discouraging fanboys of all types is an integral and important part of my strategy to help Linux, and OSS in general, to succeed.

And yes, before you say it, I do sometimes violate that policy.

What sticks to walls, and what throws it?

Posted Aug 14, 2009 0:28 UTC (Fri) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (2 responses)

> Honestly, drag, I think that Windows fanboys are largely created by... Mac and Linux fanboys. I think that our well-meaning fanboys, who think they are doing so much good, annoy *some* Windows users enough to turn them from neutral observers into active enemies. (Granted, the latent tendency probably already has to exist within the Windows user.)

Sometimes that is absolutely true.

But I've met people that seriously seriously do actually like Microsoft. They like them a _lot_. Microsoft and Microsoft products make them a lots and lots of money and they look up to them. They like Office, they like Windows. They think that the PC revolution and the rise of the internet is due in no small part to the direct action of Microsoft on the market.

Don't fool yourself. They are shocked react badly when people tell them that Microsoft software is shit, just like a lot of Linux folks are shocked that people think that Linux is just a passing faze perpetuated by a bunch of aging neckbeards in their mom's basement.

What sticks to walls, and what throws it?

Posted Aug 16, 2009 13:44 UTC (Sun) by efexis (guest, #26355) [Link] (1 responses)

There is a big different between saying "Windows is great" and "Windows is the best" ... only one of them implies knowledge/comparison of the alternatives. Anyone who falls into to second category (substituting any OS) will move others they interact with in the first category into the second, because it's the comparison that adds the element of negativity, at which point negative things about the alternatives become as much a part of the argument for why yours is the best as the positive things about your own.

"They are shocked react badly when people tell them that Microsoft software is shit"

And are you surprised? Tell someone something that's not true in an insulting mannor, especially if it's regarding a tool they use for their work/life, they're not going to find it flattering. There is a lot that Microsoft do well, if not the best, the fact that they also have a hell of a lot to answer for doesn't change that. OSS has its weak spots, and all MS have to do is be better at one of those, and somebody need that thing, and your argument "their software is shit" completely falls on its knees.

Narrow views on either side help no one, nor do spouting subjective statements in the guise of objective statements. Try "Microsoft software's shit for my needs" and you might get better response. And for the record, I'm neither Linux or Windows fanboi; most of systems are Linux, but I've found I always need one Windows, because some things on it are plain better. Networking is not one of them. I am however a big fan of truth and accuracy, and will gladly point out the flaws in alternatives where that's concerned :-)

What sticks to walls, and what throws it?

Posted Aug 16, 2009 22:24 UTC (Sun) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

> And are you surprised?

No I am not surprised at all. I would actually expect them to react in a negative manner.

What sticks to walls, and what throws it?

Posted Aug 13, 2009 22:02 UTC (Thu) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link] (2 responses)

s: I can't tell what you're disagreeing with. Are you saying that it has, in fact, stuck? Or that it's not only Microsoft flinging it? I must agree with the latter.

What sticks to walls, and what throws it?

Posted Aug 13, 2009 22:05 UTC (Thu) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link] (1 responses)

I'm not sure. There seem to be people who, for whatever reason, want to spin this in a negative way for Linux.

What sticks to walls, and what throws it?

Posted Aug 16, 2009 13:47 UTC (Sun) by efexis (guest, #26355) [Link]

There are always people who will spin anything in a negative way. Looks at what's going on in America, where universal healthcare initiatives are being spun as "death squads"... people just love to hate, nothing you can do except not be one of them.

What sticks to walls, and what throws it?

Posted Aug 18, 2009 21:11 UTC (Tue) by Baylink (guest, #755) [Link]

What sticks to walls is pasta -- specifically, spaghetti.

What throws it is cooks, checking to see if it's done. I believe the theory is that the starch is what makes it stick, and if it doesn't stick, it's done because you've boiled all the starch off.

Hey, you asked...

Dell: Linux netbook returns a "non-issue" (ZDNet)

Posted Aug 13, 2009 22:55 UTC (Thu) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link] (10 responses)

More important than the issue of return rates is understanding discrepancy between Dell's online sales figures which put Ubuntu netbook sales at 30% for the mini10...and the drop in relative availability of linux units for retail sales(not directly from an OEM) Its getting harder and harder to find a linux pre-install...even for online merchants like Amazon.

Dell's nose isn't completely clean here as Dell sales netbooks in retail chains like Best Buy...but they aren't selling the linux versions there. Nor are linux variants being bundled as part of data service contracts as far as I am aware. The return rates maybe a made up issue, but the shrinking of purchasing opportunities in the market place is another story entirely...something the OEMs have a lot of control over.

-jef

Dell: Linux netbook returns a "non-issue" (ZDNet)

Posted Aug 14, 2009 0:35 UTC (Fri) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (9 responses)

OEMs do not have control over customer demand. If the OEM stocks a shitload of Linux PCs in Wallmart is does not mean jack if people don't buy them.

The fact of the matter is that people are not actually asking for Linux systems. They are not walking into best buy and into computer stores asking for Linux systems. Until that happens it's never going to be a big priority for people like Dell to promote the fact that they offer Linux on some of their machines.

Demand must come from the bottom up, not dictated from the top down.

Dell: Linux netbook returns a "non-issue" (ZDNet)

Posted Aug 14, 2009 1:24 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (2 responses)

The fact of the matter is that people are not actually asking for Linux systems.

That's not true, but...

They are not walking into best buy and into computer stores asking for Linux systems.

That absolutely is. Why on earth would I buy from overpriced computer stores with clueless clerks whose mission in life is to rip me off with an "extended warranty"? The more sophisticated types who are likely to go for Linux machines do one of three things: They buy whitebox systems from mom-and-pop stores, they buy online, or they buy direct from the manufacturer.

I've bought two Linux-based netbooks (specifically requiring Linux) and I couldn't have found those in the normal big-box electronic stores. I bought the first from a small mom-and-pop store and the second online.

For my business, I've bought maybe 30 machines for our own use and probably 100 that we've resold, none with Windows. There's no way I'd go to a name-brand computer or electronic store to buy gear like that.

Dell: Linux netbook returns a "non-issue" (ZDNet)

Posted Aug 14, 2009 3:08 UTC (Fri) by dbruce (guest, #57948) [Link]

At our local Best Buy, I saw a single netbook with linux (the smallest
eee). All the more capable netbooks, including Dell Minis, were Windows-
was met with a blank stare.

I was interested to see that a machine was set up with a Microsoft
presentation entitled "Is a Windows Netbook Right For You?", and expected
to see some sort of anti-Linux FUD. However, the presentation never
mentioned Linux, or even suggested that anything other than Windows was a
possibility. It was purely aimed at convincing people to buy a more
expensive machine with Vista, rather than an inexpensive one with XP.

Dell: Linux netbook returns a "non-issue" (ZDNet)

Posted Aug 19, 2009 10:56 UTC (Wed) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

Why on earth would I buy from overpriced computer stores with clueless clerks whose mission in life is to rip me off with an "extended warranty"? The more sophisticated types who are likely to go for Linux machines do one of three things: They buy whitebox systems from mom-and-pop stores, they buy online, or they buy direct from the manufacturer.

Given that direct sales were the foundation of Dell's original success, you'd think Dell would entertain more choice and attract more of this type of customer, especially as they're not having to carry stock that has to be moved around between physical stores or warehouses in order to instantly satisfy walk-in customers. It should all mostly be a matter of just-in-time stuff these days, especially pre-loading the software.

Once again, I await the day when vendors aren't tempted to bundle software for the sake of it and where the pricing is transparent.

Dell: Linux netbook returns a "non-issue" (ZDNet)

Posted Aug 14, 2009 1:43 UTC (Fri) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link] (2 responses)

What is true is that if a retailer stocks zero units, they will sell zero units regardless of customer demand.

If BB doesn't have it, people know better than to call in the manager and ask why not, or demand a change; they just go elsewhere. If BB doesn't stock it, the reasons may have nothing at all to do with potential sales.

Dell: Linux netbook returns a "non-issue" (ZDNet)

Posted Aug 14, 2009 2:34 UTC (Fri) by PaulWay (guest, #45600) [Link] (1 responses)

Forgive me for what will sound like a conspiracy theory, but we've seen this played out too many times to believe it's not happening again.

Microsoft started this whole campaign by taking the online stories of people buying netbooks and installing Windows on them and used it as evidence that "people want Windows rather than Linux". They conveniently overlooked that people weren't installing Vista but XP and older Windows versions that would work on the low-spec hardware. They then offered 'discounts' for licenses on these 'cut down' machines as a further consumer incentive.

Microsoft has then threatened various resellers - Best Buy, Walmart, Harvey Norman (here in Australia), etc - with taking away their Windows licensing discount if they promote Linux before Windows. Citation needed, I know, but let's face it that's all going to be under NDA and the evidence will be hearsay that no-one will admit to (or have their discount revoked, etc). What ncm said applies here - zero units for sale, zero units sold.

Microsoft has then made lots of press about how few Linux machines are selling, how many (allegedly) get returned, etc., all to promote Windows.

Microsoft then uses this to force the OEMs to up their specs, include more support for Vista-only hardware, etc., to push the netbook market back into its own territory.

It's all strategy, and they've done it (and succeeded) over and over again. We should not be surprised that they try it one more time.

Have fun,

Paul

Dell: Linux netbook returns a "non-issue" (ZDNet)

Posted Aug 14, 2009 12:21 UTC (Fri) by leomilano (guest, #32220) [Link]

>Microsoft has then threatened various resellers - Best Buy, Walmart, Harvey
>Norman (here in Australia), etc - with taking away their Windows licensing
>discount if they promote Linux before Windows. Citation needed, I know,

Look no further
http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20090619161...

Dell: Linux netbook returns a "non-issue" (ZDNet)

Posted Aug 14, 2009 4:21 UTC (Fri) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link] (1 responses)

IIRC, when Walmart did a trial of Linux machines, they sold out really quickly and then they never got more (whether because they didn't order more, or because the small vendor they got the trial shipment from turned out not to be able to fill a full-scale order, I don't know).

On the other hand, I don't think there's a sizeable number of people who will go into a retail store looking for a Linux netbook and ask for one when there don't seem to be any available. I doubt there's actually a sizeable number of people who go into retail stores and ask for any particular computers which aren't there. I think people actually physically enter stores when they want to see what items are available in person to get an idea of what they want to buy.

Dell: Linux netbook returns a "non-issue" (ZDNet)

Posted Aug 14, 2009 23:36 UTC (Fri) by Requiem (guest, #51519) [Link]

Wal mart sold out online, but not in stores. The end result was that they got pulled from the shelves and put into the online store.

Dell: Linux netbook returns a "non-issue" (ZDNet)

Posted Aug 19, 2009 16:47 UTC (Wed) by maco (guest, #53641) [Link]

I ask in Best Buy and am told Linux isn't corporate enough.

Dell: Linux netbook returns a "non-issue" (ZDNet)

Posted Aug 15, 2009 13:09 UTC (Sat) by jengelh (subscriber, #33263) [Link] (2 responses)

One should be noting that it is more of a Ubuntu return than a Linux return.

Dell: Linux netbook returns a "non-issue" (ZDNet)

Posted Aug 15, 2009 15:15 UTC (Sat) by error27 (subscriber, #8346) [Link] (1 responses)

As far as I heard, when MSI made the comments, they weren't selling any Linux netbooks. The figures came from an independent group who they hired to speculate about possible problems.

Installing Ubuntu would be a good idea though. My EEE came with some worthless dumbed down desktop installed. I had to wipe it and re-install which was complicated (there is no CD drive).

Dell: Linux netbook returns a "non-issue" (ZDNet)

Posted Aug 19, 2009 17:15 UTC (Wed) by branden (guest, #7029) [Link]

It's a form of Xandros.

Bearable, but only once you learn that CTRL-ALT-T launches an xterm.