Sidestepping the issue [LWN.net]

Sidestepping the issue

Posted Aug 1, 2009 23:21 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (guest, #15091)
In reply to: As I see it by alankila
Parent article: OSCON keynote: Standing out in the crowd

My girlfriend is a programmer, but she is not an OSS programmer.

A veritable red herring. I work directly with 30+ developers, men and women; none of them is a free software developer but me, and I'm just a small time contributor to a few random projects. What does this show? Nothing, it's an unrelated issue.

The problem here is that there is not enough data for me to make any kind of reliable conclusion.

Let us see if we can find any data -- wait, the announcement that started this discussion contains a lot of hard data, and from women already involved in free software development. Don't you think that solving the problems perceived by these women (sexism, lack of respect, death threats) would be a first step, and that we can try to make it more comfortable at least for those that choose to join us?

Do we really need to play with statistics? Imagine that we were discussing this link:

Alleging a string of racist incidents and management indifference, a group of black Halifax firefighters files a human rights complaint.

And when talking about why there are so few black firemen in Halifax, I said: "I don't know, maybe black people don't enjoy fighting fire". Don't you think that we would be sidestepping the real issue?

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Sidestepping the issue

Posted Aug 2, 2009 13:04 UTC (Sun) by alankila (guest, #47141) [Link] (5 responses)

I know anecdotes are worthless. That's why I ironically used one, and copiously even flagged it as such. I disagree on one point: I refuse to believe that it didn't support the point I was making.

Let's assume OSS work would be just like any other work: same background level of sexism, lack of respect and even death threats. My point was that even if you fixed all that to same level as industry in general, I doubt we would have 20 % women. The anecdote I used was there to distract you about the more important point which is that incentives in OSS work are different in industry work. And that matters when you have two groups which seem to have different priorities in life. You will get different participation rates.

I will not go into black firefighters in this topic. I know you are implying that I have a blind spot just because we are discussing women and not blacks. However, I insist that my contribution is not worthless.

Let's assume we do all the things that would "fix" our community, and in 10 years we find that we have 10 % women instead of 20 % as is industry average even then. We will still be talking about subtle sexism and structural misogyny and things like that, if we just keep on staring at "20 %" and "10 %" and insist that this is evidence of a problem.

Exacerbating the problem

Posted Aug 2, 2009 13:54 UTC (Sun) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link] (3 responses)

Anecdotes are only worthless if your interest is in assessing trends and nothing else.

We aren't particularly interested in assessing trends here. Obviously most of us are caring, sharing men and a small but very much appreciated minority are caring, sharing women.

The interesting statistical question is, why is the female minority so small. And a very plausible answer is, because some men behave badly. The question of *how many* men are behaving badly isn't half as interesting as how many women there are, or how many there might be if the men did not misbehave.

Any problem of sexist behaviour in our community is not a major trend. It consists a few isolated examples of totally-unacceptable behaviour, of which anecdotes are an existence proof.

Oh, and another problem consists in this kind of thread, which demonstrates that as long as no-one mentions sexism everyone is cool, but as soon as it is adduced a small minority of posters make a very loud noise trying to insist that no problem exists, or that if it does it is statistically insignifigant, or that it's not as bad as problem Q "in the real world", or that women have the upper hand these days, or that even if a problem does exist in this community, the poster isn't responsible, etc.

When you do that, you don't make the problem go away, you exacerbate it.

You are defending the indefensible.

Please don't.

Exacerbating the problem

Posted Aug 2, 2009 15:07 UTC (Sun) by alankila (guest, #47141) [Link]

My mistake. I thought it was fair to discuss it. I didn't realize everyone needs to be on the program and just nod their heads in agreement.

Anyway, I grow tired of this, so you get your wish.

Exacerbating the problem

Posted Aug 2, 2009 23:10 UTC (Sun) by Baylink (guest, #755) [Link] (1 responses)

> Any problem of sexist behaviour in our community is not a major trend.

This is precisely the opposite of the argument which has been being made here by you, njs, nix, man_ls, and others, all week long.

Care to clarify?

Exacerbating the problem

Posted Aug 2, 2009 23:45 UTC (Sun) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link]

Unfortunately, a few people are arseholes.

Others, also a minority, quibble and "derail" in a defensive manner, questioning the validity of the whole discussion. The quibbling and derailing *of itself* contributes to an atmosphere of hostility, the existence of which the quibblers contest.

Most people are neither arseholes nor quibblers, therefore this is not a general trend. But it's still a problem.

Clear now?

Sidestepping the issue

Posted Aug 2, 2009 17:30 UTC (Sun) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Let's assume we do all the things that would "fix" our community, and in 10 years we find that we have 10 % women instead of 20 % as is industry average even then.

Let us not just assume it; let us do it. Let us fix our community so that we don't harbor sexism anymore. Once women feel comfortable within us (or at least as comfortable as men) we may continue debating the other issues: interests, abilities and whatever you like. Until then, it is like discussing whether aspirin or paracetamol are best for skull fractures: you may have a point but it's better to take care of the bigger issue first.