|
|
Log in / Subscribe / Register

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

The New York Times takes a look at the netbook revolution. "Netbook makers have turned to Linux, an open-source operating system that costs $3 instead of the $25 that Microsoft typically charges for Windows XP. They are also exploring the possibility of using the Android operating system from Google, originally designed for cellphones. (Companies like Acer, Dell and Hewlett-Packard already sell some Atom-based netbooks with Linux.)" (Thanks to Mark Tall)

to post comments

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 3, 2009 23:38 UTC (Fri) by jiu (guest, #57673) [Link] (8 responses)

"Netbook makers have turned to Linux, an open-source operating system that costs $3 instead of the $25 that Microsoft typically charges for Windows XP."

This journalist missed something rather important...

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 6:52 UTC (Sat) by pzb (guest, #656) [Link] (7 responses)

That Microsoft will drop the price even further if needed?

It seems pretty much all these vendors care about is cheap so they get a better margin.

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 8:10 UTC (Sat) by boog (subscriber, #30882) [Link] (4 responses)

I think the post is maybe referring to the difference between free as in cheap and free as in freedom, but the comment did leave me wondering whether my coffee was working.

Free and cheap

Posted Apr 4, 2009 9:48 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (2 responses)

Yes, it is hard to see the point without further explanations. I understood the original post as saying "Linux is not $3, it is $0 since it is free", but that would be misguided since Xandros and Ubuntu will charge something to the manufacturer anyway. Your interpretation ("Linux is cheap and libre too") makes more sense.

Free and cheap

Posted Apr 4, 2009 19:34 UTC (Sat) by jiu (guest, #57673) [Link] (1 responses)

Actually... I meant it both ways: the article never mentions freedom of modification and redistribution, and I didn't know that Canonical or Xandros would make hardware makers pay for their distros (thought it was $0). Is it because they're including non-free components specially for them?

Free and cheap

Posted Apr 4, 2009 19:48 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Xandros is indeed a non-free distribution (you cannot redistribute it freely). Ubuntu is mostly free (except for branded components I guess). I am not sure about the netbook distro, but it is probably the same; in any case a hardware maker could download a copy, remove all proprietary components and add back whatever they like. But OEMs pay for customization and integration anyway; in the end it is a per-unit fee quite similar to a license, albeit (in this case) much lower.

The above is pretty much speculation, but the real picture should not be too far off.

LWN bug?

Posted Apr 4, 2009 10:55 UTC (Sat) by boog (subscriber, #30882) [Link]

The subject "Free and cheap" was given to my first comment above (changed in preview), yet it only appears on the following reply. Possibly a bug in the LWN comment code?

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 18:46 UTC (Sat) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (1 responses)

There are limits to how low Microsoft can price XP.

If, for example, Microsoft was selling XP for 0 dollars then essentially each time somebody 'bought' a copy legally then then Microsoft would be forced to pay a certain amount.

I think so anyways. Microsoft pays royalties and such on media codecs and patent licensing on each item that they sell. I don't know the numbers and I don't know exactly how it works, but I think that they are required to pay a certain amount to third parties.

Even if they didn't the OEMS would.

There is a common misperception that Windows is able to play things like DVDs or other types of media out of the box. Most versions of Windows cannot.

I am not exactly sure about MP3s, but Windows XP and most forms of Vista cannot play DVDs on their own. The only versions of Windows that can actually play DVDs and such out of the box that are currently getting sold are Vista Premium and Vista Extreme. XP, Vista Home, Vista Business, etc etc. lack that sort of ability.

Therefore when OEMs sell computers with Home on them, but provide DVD players and such they pay the licensing costs themselves and provide the software necessary to play that stuff. I don't know how exactly that works either, but I expect it is tied into the ability to advertise DVD support and provide logos on packaging and their websites.

Dell, and probably a few others, do that also for Linux. When Dell sells a Ubuntu laptop they provide support for most popular codecs and DVD playback support of the box. For them to do this they have to pay the patent licensing costs and the costs of the proprietary software and that sort of thing gets passed along with the price of the computer.

So to Dell the amount of money they save by using Ubuntu over XP or Vista is actually very minor. Hell they could possibly be losing money compared to Windows simply becasue Microsoft is going to absorb some of the cost associated with it and I am told that they make some money off of bundling things like anti-virus and such.

This is also possibly one of the reasons why Vista Premium is sold with so many laptops.. With Premium it is Microsoft that is worrying about things like codecs and DVD playback and other things like that and amount of money they pay on Vista Premium's premium is offset by other reduced costs.

Of course there are other associated costs selling computers.

A major one is going to be support costs.

I would expect that having a person call Dell (or other OEM) a single time would quite easily blow away any possible increase in profits that Linux would have over Windows. A single person confused about the location of the start menu, or whether or not they should need anti-virus, etc etc. A single call probably completely blows away any cost savings, maybe even end up costing a quite a bit more then if they just went with Windows to avoid the support call in the first place.

I am pretty sure that Microsoft makes next to nothing on their OS licensing sales to OEMs for the consumer market. The 30 dollars (and do not bother comparing it to OEM or Retail prices in online stores... Dell, Lenevo, and friends have special high-volume contracts) or so they charge per copy is probably completely blown away by licensing and support costs on Microsoft's end. It is entirely like that Microsoft's entire consumer operating system business is ran at a _real_ loss already.

Microsoft makes the majority of it's money from business sales of Windows Server/Desktop, and Microsoft Office.

Here is another example on how Microsoft works:

The whole point behind Software Assurance programs is to simply garrentee regular revenue for Microsoft. Regular revenue is MUCH MUCH more important to stock holders then big sales. The intellegent ones couldn't give much of a shit on how many Vista licenses Microsoft sold in the first six months.. what they care about is how much average monthly income is Microsoft going to generate over the next 5-10 years. The kicker behind that sort of approach is that businesses get Windows/Office/etc licensing at a fraction of their retail price as long as they keep on paying support and regular subscription prices... if they abandon the program they lose all their licenses and would be forced to purchase full retail prices.

This is another huge reason why businesses are not going to see licensing costs as a advantage for Linux. Since Linux cannot replace Windows completely then businesses would be forced to keep maintaining their subscription prices anyways, unless they wanted to lose all their licensing and pay full retail. So the price advantage for Linux for those types of businesses is simply non-existant.

...

The sales and support for Windows for the home/consumer market is probably a loss leader designed to suppress potential competitors and provide a compelling reason why businesses should license Windows and Office for their internal use (no user training required, everybody already uses it).

I don't think that Linux probably offers any real substantial cost savings over Windows just based on licensing.

Asus shipped EEEPC with Linux because it was easier to make Linux run well on a 600mhz Celeron processor with 256MB of RAM and customize the UI to make it fit a 800x480 screen.

Netbooks now can run XP quite nicely. However Microsoft restricts it's XP licensing so that OEMS cannot provide XP on netbooks with more then 1GB of RAM.

So on netbooks with 1GB+ it is Vista vs Linux. And the nicer netbooks being sold, and by next year ALL netbooks being sold are going to be able to run Vista well enough and Windows 7 even better. By the end of next year even the very cheap netbooks should be able to run Windows 7 "good enough".

So Linux can't really compete in terms of pricing (it can a little bit, but it's not that huge of a deal people hoped it would be), nor can it really stand out in terms of lower resource usage (a extra 1GB of RAM costs about 10-20 bucks now and it's only getting cheaper) in the long term future. Linux desktop needs have lower support costs and run all the software that users demand to make it truly compelling for OEMs to start replacing Windows.

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 5, 2009 9:57 UTC (Sun) by Los__D (guest, #15263) [Link]

I think you got the money stream a bit backwards regarding the DVD players.

The manufacturer usually gets money from the software vendors for installing some crappy shareware version of DVD players, antivirus and other junk that nobody wants (since there's better free-as-in-beer alternatives).

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 0:01 UTC (Sat) by dkite (guest, #4577) [Link] (10 responses)

Would netbooks even exist if linux hadn't been available?

Derek

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 0:58 UTC (Sat) by agrover (guest, #55381) [Link] (7 responses)

If Linux didn't exist, wouldn't some other OS have assumed its place as the main free/libre OS of choice? Either *BSD, or maybe Alan Cox would've started Coxxyx? :)

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 5:43 UTC (Sat) by dkite (guest, #4577) [Link] (4 responses)

Possibly.

Microsoft has been determining the form of laptops and desktops for a long
time. They designed the tablet form. The netbook was not their idea, and
Asus designed the eeepc with linux because MS wasn't there. Xp was on the
way out, and the small form factor with low power and storage capacity
didn't fit with MS's plans.

They did a rather quick 180 however.

Derek

Whatever was needed

Posted Apr 4, 2009 9:54 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (3 responses)

Imagine the buzz at Microsoft HQ when they read somewhere that a Taiwanese manufacturer had already shipped more than a million Linux laptops... I guess they set a commando team to work immmediately.

"The year of the Linux desktop" is still in limbo, but the year of the Linux netbook came and went. Sadly it is XP almost everywhere now.

Whatever was needed

Posted Apr 6, 2009 10:42 UTC (Mon) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link] (2 responses)

Yeah, Linux on the netboox seems to have been a 2007 thing.

Last year when the Eee 901 came out (a couple of months late) I was going to buy one, but it took so long for the Linux version to arrive that I'd lost interest (I'm working under the assumption that the Linux version did eventually materialise, a few months down the line - okay I've just checked and two of the three online shops I tried have the Linux version, though not in stock).

The cynic in me can't help but think that the use of Linux was a way of forcing MS to provide XP for a couple more years at a cut-down price.

Whatever was needed

Posted Apr 6, 2009 22:04 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (1 responses)

Probably OEMs were not even that cunning. It was just that Linux could be made to work in those puny machines; I can imagine that Microsoft tried to sell them Windows Vista or (gasp) CE and the Taiwanese recoiled in pain, so they went to Linux vendors.

True, they got cheap XP licenses this way for 10% of their machines; but they also risked their relationship with the OS of choice for the remaining 90%. Right now they have sweet deals with Microsoft, the machines work well with Linux and everyone is happy. Except us Linux geeks who have seen the best opportunity as of yet come and go.

Risked their relationship?

Posted Apr 6, 2009 22:42 UTC (Mon) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link]

Risked their relationship? Remember, the only companies that MSFT treats with respect are those that have somehow shown their capability and willingness to go Linux. (Matthew 18:12 Marketing?)

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 5, 2009 20:50 UTC (Sun) by lkundrak (subscriber, #43452) [Link]

Reading the "Coxxyx" name made me regret that Linus had in fact started writing his kernel for a while...

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 5, 2009 23:54 UTC (Sun) by csamuel (✭ supporter ✭, #2624) [Link]

Nah, Alan would have done AberMUDos, if he can turn a bulletin board talker
into a bloodbath of a MUD then why not an OS too.. ;-)

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 14:30 UTC (Sat) by rvfh (guest, #31018) [Link] (1 responses)

Would XP still be sold (and supported) if Linux had not made netbooks possible?

BTW, $25 for XP shows how far MS are going to go to remain the desktop everybody uses. I think Vista pre-installed is more like $60 at least...

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 9, 2009 12:43 UTC (Thu) by NRArnot (subscriber, #3033) [Link]

Spot on!

More significantly, it's XP (which Microsoft users like), not Vista (utter crap, and so bloated there's no way to make it usable on a curent netbook). Microsoft were trying to kill XP by withdrawing it from the market, netbooks rather damaged that strategy.

And I suspect that most folks will prefer light weight over Vista capability, so MS won't have any future tech lifeline. A current Atom CPU is fast enough, running XP or Linux. Which will sell best, a netbook that runs Vista at a usable speed, or a Linux or XP netbook that's half the weight because it gets the same runtime from much smaller batteries? Mine's the six-hundred-gram one.

Now, why is it that no-one makes a netbook with a higher-resolution screen? Methinks Microsoft has a hand in that. Asus or someone, please launch a Linux-only high-res netbook, it'll force MS's hand the same way the original netbook did.

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 6:51 UTC (Sat) by cannedfish (guest, #49561) [Link] (5 responses)

I'm eagerly waiting for ARM Cortex based netbooks. Those will define the new netbook experience with much longer battery life and non-Windows OS.

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 8:33 UTC (Sat) by yann.morin.1998 (guest, #54333) [Link] (3 responses)

> I'm eagerly waiting for ARM Cortex based netbooks.

http://alwaysinnovating.com/touchbook/

Looks interesting with one exception

Posted Apr 4, 2009 18:51 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

The Touch Book OS has two modes: one for use with keyboard and touchpad, and one for use as a standalone touchscreen tablet. The innovative 3D interface is easy to use and does not require a stylus or a skinny pinky.

Just what is this "Touch Book OS"? Does it include OOo or any other office suite? What about Flash or Java? How well it works in real life?

Too many unknowns - will wait for real thing to become available...

Looks interesting with one exception

Posted Apr 6, 2009 9:40 UTC (Mon) by odie (guest, #738) [Link]

Just what is this "Touch Book OS"?
It is the OpenEmbedded derived Ångström.

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 5, 2009 14:51 UTC (Sun) by i3839 (guest, #31386) [Link]

Nice, but $100 too expensive.

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 10:00 UTC (Sat) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link]

Ditto, although it's unlikely there will be one with a Free-friendly graphics interface available to start with. The PowerVR GPUs are quite popular and ImgTec are keeping pretty quiet about specification releases.

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 7:51 UTC (Sat) by pheldens (guest, #19366) [Link]

xppro oem costs 110 euro ex here

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 8:27 UTC (Sat) by danielpf (guest, #4723) [Link] (8 responses)

"Netbook makers have turned to Linux, an open-source operating system that costs $3 instead of the $25 that Microsoft typically charges for Windows XP. They are also exploring the possibility of using the Android operating system from Google, originally designed for cellphones. (Companies like Acer, Dell and Hewlett-Packard already sell some Atom-based netbooks with Linux.)
"

The author presents Android as a distinct OS made by Google,
omitting it is Linux too.

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 10:06 UTC (Sat) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link] (7 responses)

It is a different OS that happens to share a kernel.

Can you run your Linux programs on Anderoid?

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 12:33 UTC (Sat) by sim0n (guest, #16432) [Link] (2 responses)

Linux is not an operating system but a kernel... details aside ;-) ... yes
you can "run your Linux programs on Android".
Why shouldn't you be able to ?

They have a pretty standard, but minimal, base system, where their android
stuff runs on top of it (unless they've stripper it further since the last
time I had a look at it...).

Pretty standard? Hardly.

Posted Apr 4, 2009 18:58 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

They have a pretty standard, but minimal, base system, where their android stuff runs on top of it.

Have you actually tried to check facts before answering? Bionic is pretty darn stripped libc and their utilites don't even try to pretent they support POSIX. It's kind of Unix-like environment, but it's not Unix at all. And "Adroid stuff" is not really tied to Linux - they can switch to other kernel if it and when it'll be feasible.

The fact that GNU/Linux was called just Linux for years now returns to bite you: most people say "Linux" and assume it's kind of GNU/Linux where you can use "normal Linux programs" - and Android is quite different from that.

Pretty standard? Hardly.

Posted Apr 5, 2009 19:51 UTC (Sun) by sim0nx (guest, #23065) [Link]

>>They have a pretty standard, but minimal, base system, where their
android stuff runs on top of it.

>Have you actually tried to check facts before answering? Bionic is
>pretty darn stripped libc and their utilites don't even try to pretent
>they support POSIX. It's kind of Unix-like environment, but it's not
>Unix at all.

Never said they were using glibc and were completely POSIX compliant or
anything like your regular XYZ-distro ;-)
I simply meant that you can have a shell, some regular at least unix-like
tools etc...

>And "Adroid stuff" is not really tied to Linux - they can switch to other
>kernel if it and when it'll be feasible.

When did I say it was Linux tied ?

>The fact that GNU/Linux was called just Linux for years now returns to
>bite you: most people say "Linux" and assume it's kind of GNU/Linux where
>you can use "normal Linux programs" - and Android is quite different from
>that.

I don't care what people "assume" ... Linux is the kernel, not
GNU/Linux... but as I said "details aside".
And you're wrong, it doesn't return to bite me as I was just quoting the
other comment ;-).

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 17:43 UTC (Sat) by danielpf (guest, #4723) [Link] (3 responses)

Clearly it is common usage for "Linux" to have a different sense depending on the context, a kernel or an OS based on this kernel. Here Linux is used to mean any OS based on the Linux kernel, so there is no reason to distinguish Android from other Linux based OS's.

"Any OS" is clearly wrong.

Posted Apr 4, 2009 19:03 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (2 responses)

Here Linux is used to mean any OS based on the Linux kernel, so there is no reason to distinguish Android from other Linux based OS's.

Sorry, but no. You can argue as much as you want about "any OS based on Linux" but for "normal people" Linux is GNOME/KDE/XFCE thing. Non-XWindow- based system is clearly not Linux for them. It can be called "Linux-based OS", "Linux-derived OS", but it's not "Linux". Just like XBox's OS is not Windows - even if they use the same (or almost the same) kernel.

"Any OS" is clearly wrong.

Posted Apr 5, 2009 16:44 UTC (Sun) by RobSeace (subscriber, #4435) [Link] (1 responses)

> Non-XWindow- based system is clearly not Linux for them.

What a bizarre concept... So, you're saying that a Linux server with no running (or perhaps even installed) X server is not really running "Linux", whatever that means?? I'm sorry, but that's simply insane... I can think of no one whose definition of "Linux" is tied to X at all... (Plus, if X and the related desktop environments are what supposedly define "Linux", then does that mean that every other system that X and they run on are now also "Linux"? That makes absolutely zero sense...)

"Any OS" is clearly wrong.

Posted Apr 5, 2009 19:53 UTC (Sun) by sim0nx (guest, #23065) [Link]

hahaha lol

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 18:12 UTC (Sat) by nitingupta (guest, #53817) [Link] (1 responses)

Memory compression project was started primarily to help such devices only.
http://code.google.com/p/compcache/

Light and Cheap, Netbooks Are Poised to Reshape PC Industry (New York Times)

Posted Apr 4, 2009 18:59 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

I suspect I'll be finding it damn useful when I migrate my firewall onto a
Soekris box, too. No moving parts -> no hard drive, and it doesn't have
all that much RAM, and while I can swap to flash I suspect swapping to a
compressed in-memory cache would be much better. (Swapping over the
network has... other problems, as we know from the travails of the
swap-over-NFS patches.)

A cold shower

Posted Apr 7, 2009 4:18 UTC (Tue) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link]

From yesterdays The Register
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/06/windows_crushes_linux_on_netbooks/

"An NPD Retail Tracking Service report states the Windows installation rate on netbooks has grown from 10 per cent in the first half of 2008 to 96 per cent in February 2009."

I can corroborate that. A year ago, Linux netbooks were sold everywhere in my town, now they are hard to find (only from small retailers that may be selling old stock). Do Asus or Acer even make new Linux netbooks any more?

But the article notes that netbooks bundled with telco services could change this. Or the next Windows update that end-of-lifes XP.


Copyright © 2009, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds