Sadly I was never able to watch this famed stability... [LWN.net]

Sadly I was never able to watch this famed stability...

Posted Feb 20, 2009 11:15 UTC (Fri) by ekj (guest, #1524)
In reply to: Sadly I was never able to watch this famed stability... by malor
Parent article: Debian 5.0 released

Sure. But my point is, there's a fundamental difference between hardware, primarily in the form of the kernel, and userspace-programs.

If Apache is from last century, and we're running KDE 3.* alongside Python 2.4, that's okay. Assuming it's really more stable, there's many people who'd be perfectly fine with that. Not only on the server, but on a laptop too.

My father, for example. It's much more important to him that things consistently work, and stat working for a long time, rather than new shiny features.

But, hardware is different. A more stable, well-tested kernel that FAILS to actually WORK AT ALL on my hardware isn't an alternative. *EVEN* if I highly value stability over new bleeding-edge features.

Thus, the result is that many people who WOULD like a stable and "boring" distro, nevertheless are forced away from Debian. Because they insert the Debian-DVD, and up comes a blank-screen, or a non-working wireless, or a non-working audio, or a non-working integrated web-camera or whatever.

Yes, they can avoid this by spesifically looking for an ancient-kernel-compatible laptop. But it's not that easy.

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Sadly I was never able to watch this famed stability...

Posted Feb 20, 2009 14:45 UTC (Fri) by malor (guest, #2973) [Link]

But, hardware is different. A more stable, well-tested kernel that FAILS to actually WORK AT ALL on my hardware isn't an alternative. *EVEN* if I highly value stability over new bleeding-edge features.

I totally hear you. Maybe the Debian guys will too; they could possibly include a linux-experimental tree (probably just pulled from Testing) in an otherwise-Stable distribution. Or, I suppose some other entity could do a boot CD of Debian Stable + the kernel from Testing or Unstable. But they'd have to maintain a separate repository for kernel updates, or else your shiny new system would probably fail after the first kernel patch in the Stable tree. It'd be an ongoing project, not just a one-off thing, and you could potentially run into some real snarls with dependencies from Testing also needing a backport. Sometimes, pulling a Testing kernel back to Stable can be pretty painful.

I don't speak for Debian, but as an outsider, it seems like people with cutting-edge hardware just aren't the target market. It feels to me that their goal is serving people who value stability enough to custom-choose their hardware to get it. To a professional-level mindset, you pick your software FIRST, and then you get the hardware that best suits your performance and budget needs. You don't buy your software to go with your hardware; that's buying a suit to match a tie. The software's the important bit; the hardware is just the method of getting the software to the place you want it.

If you're buying whatever's on sale at Best Buy, a super-reliable distro probably isn't what you want anyway, since the hardware on those machines tends to be so awful. The risk of hardware failure is so high that the increased reliability in using Debian over Ubuntu will be largely irrelevant.

Honestly, it's not like Ubuntu is terrible, you know. It's pretty solid. You're probably not going to run into any serious bugs that will mess you up, and they seem pretty responsive to problem reports, if you do a good one.

I guess... Debian is for people who fear system failure, and plan accordingly. If you're not actively afraid of what will happen if your computer crashes, Ubuntu's probably fine.

Sadly I was never able to watch this famed stability...

Posted Feb 20, 2009 15:08 UTC (Fri) by malor (guest, #2973) [Link]

One other thought, a thing I really didn't touch on: you say your father prefers stability over anything else, but Debian really _can't_ provide both stability and brand new kernels. The kernel dev process is completely borked from a stability-lover's perspective; the two-month cycle times, with vast numbers of new features going in every sixty days, is completely antithetical to anything resembling a truly trustworthy or secure machine.

That dev cycle has put me through hell. I used to track linux.org kernels, but I haven't for years now, because they're such a mess. Their focus on features features features has cost me hundreds of personal dollars in replaced hardware that didn't need replacing, and uncounted hours dealing with server crashes.

I just don't see any way that Debian can both provide stability AND anything resembling a current kernel, because stability means 'no new features'. But the kernel team refuses to ever let anything shake out, and they don't backport much of anything.

I don't think you should be blaming the Debian team for this. I think they do an amazing job of extracting user-level stability from a programmer-oriented wankfest. Their inability to provide a stable kernel with recent hardware support is a problem with the kernel team, not the distro.