Changes at OLPC [LWN.net]

Changes at OLPC

Posted Jan 8, 2009 20:49 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313)
In reply to: Changes at OLPC by Alterego
Parent article: Changes at OLPC

so what I would take away from your post is that geeks should not try to send any technology or technology based things to anyone else. all we can do is to donate money to organizations that provide food to starving kids and hope that it solves things somehow. (or put their life on hold for several years and go in on the ground, which is nice when it can be done, isn't realistic for 99.99% of people)

if true that's extremely discouraging (in part, since it hasn't worked in the last 50+ years I see no reason to expect it to suddenly start working now)

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Changes at OLPC

Posted Jan 8, 2009 21:48 UTC (Thu) by Alterego (guest, #55989) [Link] (9 responses)

hmm mostly yes, situation is very difficult.

Without having spent time on the ground (or maybe huge studies), we cannot help a lot, except through our excellence in our own job/knowledge. So building a cheap, low power IT solution is a good idea, but the content must be their. So sharing our open source educational tools will be very good once they will be adapted to fit local realities. AFAIK OLPC in our rich countries we don't give one computer to each child, so why should it be in poor countires ?

We should help _their_ initiatives and _their_ solutions, by providing support mailing list, or whatever they ask for. (i teached M$ when i was hoping for implementing linux). Wrt to IT, things have evolved, for example Ubuntu is at first glance an African solution, which obviously shows that linux is also suited for Africa.

If you want to get some encouraging analyse, watch
http://www.gapminder.org/videos/ted-talks/hans-rosling-te...
(UN data, explained by a clever economist who spent a lot of time in Africa)

And we can help a lot by lobbying our governments to stop the root cause of their misery = our (US and EU) agriculture subventions that prevent their agriculture to develop, and this is the first mandatory step for sustainable development. Historically all (no exception) so called "developped countries" have grown through theses steps, first primary economy and food self-providing, then secondary and last tertiary, with "protectionism" of the local economy by taxes on importations and state intervention in social welfare and infrastructures.

Probably many other actions are possible from here (see debt problem, UN funding...), but i think the best we (geeks) can do is to share what we use for our children, and help them (poor but clever southern guys) to adapt it to their needs.

Changes at OLPC

Posted Jan 9, 2009 17:32 UTC (Fri) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link] (8 responses)

We can't solve all of their problems. So let's not even try to help them.

Changes at OLPC

Posted Jan 9, 2009 19:16 UTC (Fri) by Alterego (guest, #55989) [Link] (7 responses)

For first-aid, if you don't _really_ know what to do, the only thing to do is :
- try to avoid the worsening of the situation by signaling the accident
- call competent services to get help
- stay with the victim and speak with her while rescue is coming

A positive approach, is then to learn "first-aid" during a stage at hospital, or with firemen... and forgot all the nasty things that incompetent neighbours told to you.

Changes at OLPC

Posted Jan 9, 2009 20:13 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (6 responses)

so you are saying that trying to assist anyone with technology or education is worse than doing nothing.

all we should do is provide you (and people like you) with money, we aren't even qualified to evaluate if the money is being spent efficiantly.

Money and help ?

Posted Jan 10, 2009 0:16 UTC (Sat) by Alterego (guest, #55989) [Link] (5 responses)

You transform what i said into ridiculous things.

Did i ever asked for or speak of money ?
Man, i spent 3 years of my life, and nearly all my economies in western Africa for IT in small ngo and schools. I did it on my own money because it was too time consuming and difficult to get the small funds i needed, without going througth insanely dumb sponsorship, who wanted things to be done in sponsors way, when it is needed to do them in african way.

But as you speak of money, one other problem of aid to developing countries is that the funds quickly goes back to the original donators country, and only very little is spent in local economy. OLPC is a huge example : the paid developpers are in US, the hardware manufacturer in developped countries. The target country can only say "thanks, you are so kind", when it would have prefered to have local developpers doing the job. In OLPC it seems some parts are localised, so i guess there have been paid translators.
You should ask your beloved olpc team how the money was spent, i missed it on their site too.

The main things i try to share is:
- from here we understand nearly nothing, so we do bs and think we are right.
- The good way to help them is to do what they ask for. Nothing more, nothing less.

Money and help ?

Posted Jan 10, 2009 0:33 UTC (Sat) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (4 responses)

when you say 'do what they ask for an nothing more' who is 'they'

if it's the government, then frequently all they want you to do is to give them money to spend on luxuries.

in every case where OLPC is doing a deployment, someone in the receiving country has asked them to do so.

I commend you for taking the time out of your life to go in on the ground and work to make things better, but telling people that if they don't do that they are better off doing nothing won't make anything better.

Money and help ?

Posted Jan 10, 2009 3:10 UTC (Sat) by Alterego (guest, #55989) [Link] (2 responses)

When "they" is a OLPC leader, should we blindly accept what is said, don't ask to watch their budget, and trust their wonderfull success story ?

OLPC is now tackling sub-saharian problems.
But it seems they have not even read a 3 page document describing _THE_ official continental plan for Africa. (NEPAD.)
http://www.nepad.org/2005/files/documents/30.pdf

Does olpc fit Nepad Objectives ? No.
I cannot explain better why i say OLPC is (now) severely misguided.

Its hard to explain in small (and emotional) posts what i learnt in several years of travels, discussions, experiences and many books readings.

Maybe google will give you some hints for nepad, gapminder, Jean Ziegler work at UN, and "right for food" (refused only by one country in the world, i let you find out which one), or Joseph Stiglitz, or digg and you will find lots of dramatic total failures, or misleading projects.

If you want a sad real story where it would have been infinitely better to do nothing than impose our rules (but it was supposed to help them, it had nothing to do with our business of course), read this :
http://aithne.net/index.php?e=news&id=201&lang=0

And please, keep on trying to help other people, that's great. But get deep informations, and don't misunderstand my criticism. It's necessary and good to have criticism in order to improve.

IT can provoke big civilisation disasters, by erasing culture, that's why it is important that we (foreigners) provide only help for tech, and that the local people create the socio-cultural-educational content.

Money and help ?

Posted Jan 10, 2009 4:08 UTC (Sat) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

anything that claims to be _THE_ plan for a continent is suspicious to start with. and just because it wasn't in that plan (whenever it was drafted), doesn't mean that it's not a useful idea.

you need to investigate how OLPC is working, not just read the press reports from NN's speaches. there is heavy involvement from people in-country, they are working with and through the ministry of education (or equivalent), they aren't just drop shipping laptops to schools and declaring success

Money and help ?

Posted Jan 10, 2009 9:37 UTC (Sat) by Alterego (guest, #55989) [Link]

>> anything that claims to be _THE_ plan for a continent is suspicious to start with

Are you a troll ?
Did you check Nepad site, at least the home page and the url i gave wrt IT ?

They are poor, but certainly not stupid nor ignorant.

Money and help ?

Posted Jan 10, 2009 4:11 UTC (Sat) by Ze (guest, #54182) [Link]

>>I commend you for taking the time out of your life to go in on the ground and work to make things better, but telling people that if they don't do that they are better off doing nothing won't make anything better.

What if it's the truth? Is making yourself feel better more important than helping them? The simple fact is until people accept that aid programs have a cost on the developing country and that not all aid is helpful they will continue to be unsuccessful in the long term. (BTW this can also be applied to social services.)

My personal view when it comes to charity is that I don't donate anything (time,money,goods) unless I know where it is going. It's a philosophy I intend to follow for the rest of my life. I'd love to push some of the responsibility off onto others but mountain of historical evidence tells us that it's far too easy for aid to be wasted , or harm them. I've mainly donated time and skills , and goods that aren't needed to charity so far because I've chosen a different path than most but I'm facing the situation where I could become reasonably wealthy from my own hard work and a bit of luck , so it's something I've thought about a lot. In the long term finding out that my help was harmful even though it had the best intentions would more than counteract the temporary joy from doing it. I'd feel responsible for the harm even though it was unintended (and I would be responsible for it). So looking to the long term and taking a careful involved approach is really a win/win for everybody including me.

There are many reasons why aid fails but a lot of it has to do with exploiting the countries for resources and labour. In the long run I suspect we would be better not to exploit these countries AND give them education through information and helping them construct things using basic skills. We can shorten the time to bring them up to our technological level by showing them some of the mistakes on the way up and letting them chart a better path.

If we exploit these countries we aren't helping them and we aren't letting them choose the way they want to be ,often we are supporting a Govt that the people don't want or that isn't sustainable just so we can get what we want.

It's also no use teaching them how to build or use something if they can't replicate and maintain it themselves. There are numerous times in history when we've donated technology only for it to be useless in a couple of years when the program ends because they can't maintain it (or it's too costly to maintain it). If we give them aid in the form of goods to supplement a short term shortfall we have to be careful we don't wipe out their existing industry or make them dependent on it.