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Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

From:  Brett Smith <brett-AT-fsf.org>
To:  info-press-AT-gnu.org, info-fsf-AT-gnu.org, info-gnu-AT-gnu.org
Subject:  [GNU/FSF Press] Free Software Foundation Files Suit Against Cisco For GPL Violations
Date:  Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:10:50 -0500
Message-ID:  <1229015450.12623.49.camel@serenity.office.fsf.org>

## Free Software Foundation Files Suit Against Cisco For GPL Violations

BOSTON, Massachusetts, USA -- Thursday, December 11, 2008 -- The Free
Software Foundation (FSF) today announced that it has filed a
copyright infringement lawsuit against Cisco.  The FSF's complaint
alleges that in the course of distributing various products under the
Linksys brand Cisco has violated the licenses of many programs on
which the FSF holds copyright, including GCC, binutils, and the GNU C
Library.  In doing so, Cisco has denied its users their right to share
and modify the software.

Most of these programs are licensed under the GNU General Public
License (GPL), and the rest are under the GNU Lesser General Public
License (LGPL).  Both these licenses encourage everyone, including
companies like Cisco, to modify the software as they see fit and then
share it with others, under certain conditions.  One of those
conditions says that anyone who redistributes the software must also
provide their recipients with the source code to that program.  The
FSF has documented many instances where Cisco has distributed licensed
software but failed to provide its customers with the corresponding
source code.

"Our licenses are designed to ensure that everyone who uses the
software can change it," said Richard Stallman, president and founder
of the FSF.  "In order to exercise that right, people need the source
code, and that's why our licenses require distributors to provide it.
We are enforcing our licenses to protect the rights that everyone
should have with all software: to use it, share it, and modify it as
they see fit."

"We began working with Cisco in 2003 to help them establish a process
for complying with our software licenses, and the initial changes were
very promising," explained Brett Smith, licensing compliance engineer
at the FSF.  "Unfortunately, they never put in the effort that was
necessary to finish the process, and now five years later we have
still not seen a plan for compliance.  As a result, we believe that
legal action is the best way to restore the rights we grant to all
users of our software."

"Free software developers entrust their copyrights to the FSF so we
can make sure that their work is always redistributed in ways that
respect user freedom," said Peter Brown, executive director of the
FSF.  "In the fifteen years we've spent enforcing our licenses, we've
never gone to court before. We have always managed to get the
companies we have worked with to take their obligations seriously. But
at the end of the day, we're also willing to take the legal action
necessary to ensure users have the rights that our licenses
guarantee."

The complaint was filed this morning in United States District Court
for the Southern District of New York by the Software Freedom Law
Center, which is providing representation to the FSF in this case.
The case is number 08-CV-10764 and will be heard by Judge Paul
G. Gardephe.  A copy of the complaint is available at
<http://www.fsf.org/licensing/complaint-2008-12-11.pdf>.

### About the FSF

The Free Software Foundation, founded in 1985, is dedicated to
promoting computer users' right to use, study, copy, modify, and
redistribute computer programs. The FSF promotes the development and
use of free (as in freedom) software -- particularly the GNU operating
system and its GNU/Linux variants -- and free documentation for free
software. The FSF also helps to spread awareness of the ethical and
political issues of freedom in the use of software, and its Web sites,
located at fsf.org and gnu.org, are an important source of information
about GNU/Linux. Donations to support the FSF's work can be made at
<http://donate.fsf.org>. Its headquarters are in Boston, MA, USA.

### About the GNU General Public License (GNU GPL)

The GNU General Public License (GPL) is a license for software.  When
a program is released under its terms, every user will have the
freedom to share and change it, no matter how they get it.  The GPL is
the most popular free software license in the world, used by almost
three quarters of all free software packages.  The FSF recently
updated the license to address new concerns in the free software
community; version 3 of the GPL (GPLv3) was released on June 29, 2007.

### About the GNU Operating System and Linux

Richard Stallman announced in September 1983 the plan to develop a
free software Unix-like operating system called GNU. GNU is the only
operating system developed specifically for the sake of users'
freedom. See <http://www.gnu.org/gnu/the-gnu-project.html>.

In 1992, the essential components of GNU were complete, except for
one, the kernel. When in 1992 the kernel Linux was re-released under
the GNU GPL, making it free software, the combination of GNU and Linux
formed a complete free operating system, which made it possible for
the first time to run a PC without non-free software. This combination
is the GNU/Linux system. For more explanation, see
<http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html>.

### Media Contacts

Brett Smith  
Licensing Compliance Engineer  
Free Software Foundation  
+1 (617) 542 5942 x18  
<brett@fsf.org>  

 ###




_______________________________________________
FSF And GNU Press mailing list <info-press@gnu.org>
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-press




to post comments

Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

Posted Dec 11, 2008 19:59 UTC (Thu) by trasz (guest, #45786) [Link] (59 responses)

Wanna be safe - use BSD instead of Linux. :-)

Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

Posted Dec 11, 2008 20:16 UTC (Thu) by donbarry (guest, #10485) [Link] (22 responses)

Wanna guarantee that others share back instead of just taking, use GPL
instead of BSD. :-)

70% of the projects in a typical distribution of GNU/Linux do.
They want to be partners and not stooges towards the profit
interests of corporations.

Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

Posted Dec 11, 2008 20:38 UTC (Thu) by salimma (subscriber, #34460) [Link] (21 responses)

Agreed. The only issue I have with the FSF is that they have de-emphasized LGPL to the point that some people are shipping libraries under the GPL, with no exception -- when the subject matter is esoteric enough, the GPLed library is sometimes the only good implementation, making the use restriction rather frustrating.

The GPL is designed to encourage sharing

Posted Dec 11, 2008 20:56 UTC (Thu) by bignose (subscriber, #40) [Link] (1 responses)

> when the subject matter is esoteric enough, the GPLed library is sometimes the only good implementation, making the use restriction rather frustrating.

That's pretty much the point. If you want to benefit from the freedom you receive in a GPLed implementation, then you don't get to restrict the freedom of recipients of your derived work.

Frustrating the efforts of those who want to restrict software recipients's freedoms is a big part of the design of the GPL. It sounds like the GPL is working as designed.

History of LGPL

Posted Dec 11, 2008 21:47 UTC (Thu) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link]

LGPL was always for standard or clone libraries that made it possible to build UN*X applications on GNU. For libraries that gave you something new, the GPL Even the GNU Readline library was released under GPL (which resulted in BSD Editline as a clone under a non-reciprocal license).

Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

Posted Dec 11, 2008 20:57 UTC (Thu) by daney (guest, #24551) [Link]

No one is forcing you to use GPLed code. If you don't like to license, too bad. There are plenty of sources for non-GPL code, use one of them instead or write it yourself.

Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

Posted Dec 11, 2008 21:06 UTC (Thu) by atai (subscriber, #10977) [Link] (5 responses)

There is always the BSD out there, right?

The ultimate goal

Posted Dec 11, 2008 21:28 UTC (Thu) by whacker (guest, #55546) [Link] (4 responses)

I think it is important to get people to understand that knowledge is not a material object, it is something that is most useful only when it is shared.

Thats the ultimate goal. The GPL is a tool that helps us get there.

The ultimate goal

Posted Dec 12, 2008 0:16 UTC (Fri) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link] (3 responses)

Knowledge is only useful when shared?

OK, share with us your bank account numbers, id numbers, name, address, mother's maiden name, passwords ...

But I suppose you meant knowledge that others have generated for themselves, not dry facts.

So, share with us your business's strategic plan, upcoming products, market analysis ...

Not what you meant? You meant just software maybe?

I think you probably have a lot of limitations on just what knowledge you meant that is most useful only when shared. Please amplify.

Most useful

Posted Dec 12, 2008 1:39 UTC (Fri) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

Criticizing based on a misquote is pretty cheap argumentation.

We distinguish a fact as knowledge, vs. raw data or ephemeral plans, by how repeatedly and generally useful it is. Artificially restricting knowledge harms the body public by interfering with this repeated use. Causing such harm is legal, generally, so must be specifically discouraged when we want to prevent it. The GPL is one way to do that. The patent right grant is another way. Tenure is a third.

The ultimate goal

Posted Dec 12, 2008 8:29 UTC (Fri) by job (guest, #670) [Link] (1 responses)

That's very different types of information. Passwords are supposed to be a secret. They are not supposed to be "useful" to others in any meaningful way.

The other things you mention are publicly available. Plus every time I do consulting work I put them on paper in order to get paid. That's pretty useful to me.

The ultimate goal

Posted Dec 13, 2008 1:01 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Indeed, passwords are only useful when shared: the owner has to share them with the authenticator to make them work. If whacker shared with you his/her passwords then they would be useful for you to steal his identity (or whatever they protect).

The quote "knowledge is most useful only when it is shared" is surprisingly accurate, even beyond software where it was supposed to be applied.

Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

Posted Dec 11, 2008 21:47 UTC (Thu) by gmaxwell (guest, #30048) [Link]

"when the subject matter is esoteric enough, the GPLed library is sometimes the only good implementation" thats exactly when the GPL makes sense for a library.

For those who are in the business of promoting free software (such as the FSF) the lesser GPL is primarly useful when GPLing a library would only encourage gratuitous incompatibility and not encourage the GPLing of more software. ... Such as is the case when the functionality the library provides is widely duplicated.

(If you don't agree with the goal, you won't like this reasoning… but this is not an unreasonable position)

FSF "Why you shouldn't use the Library GPL for your next library"

Posted Dec 11, 2008 23:10 UTC (Thu) by dwheeler (guest, #1216) [Link]

It's not a "de-emphasis" on the LGPL. The FSF specifically recommends that Free software developers use the GPL and not the LGPL, for libraries, as described in "Why you shouldn't use the Library GPL for your next library". If you think about their goals, it makes sense why they'd recommend that. Not everyone agrees with their goals, of course.

Having said that, the FSF is more pragmatic than some give them credit for. In many cases, even if you completely support the FSF's goal, the GPL is not the best license for a library, and the FSF admits this. They developed and maintain the LGPL specifically because they'd rather get half a loaf than none. Heck, Stallman encouraged the Ogg Vorbis library's move to permissive (BSD-style) licensing, because he perceives the codec patent threats to be a bigger threat than any copyright threat. Projects like GNOME _specifically_ require that all their "core" libraries to be LGPL-compatible.

Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

Posted Dec 12, 2008 0:11 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (9 responses)

that's assuming that the GPL really does apply across the linking boundary. this is something that the FSF preaches is the case, but has never been tested.

I don't know if it's people not testing this case, or if the people going after violators concentrate on the blatant cases where no code is released at all.

Yes it's the case

Posted Dec 12, 2008 1:24 UTC (Fri) by gmaxwell (guest, #30048) [Link] (7 responses)

If I offer you software under a license that states "This license is only valid so long as no software you distribute contains the word 'bob'" and you package up my software with yours, and your software contains the word 'bob' then you are distributing the software I wrote without a license. The manner in which your and my software is or isn't combined isn't relevant, you still are obligated to conform to the license of my software or not distribute it.

So there really is no reason to doubt that the GPL can define the linking boundary however it likes. GPLv3 switched away from loaded terminology like 'derivative' specifically to avoid encouraging this class of confusion among laymen.

Yes it's the case

Posted Dec 12, 2008 1:40 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (5 responses)

there are limits to what is considered reasonable for such licenses, and I don't believe that your example would be considered valid.

Yes it's the case

Posted Dec 12, 2008 6:55 UTC (Fri) by jamesh (guest, #1159) [Link] (4 responses)

If the license is not valid, what license would you have to distribute the code?

Sometimes court can declare PART of the license "null and void"

Posted Dec 12, 2008 17:04 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (3 responses)

For example if your license demands that you'll chop your hand before you'll start using the program court will usually say it's "unreasonable demand" and THIS PART of the license will be declared null and void (but the license as whole will still be valid). But in reality this rarely happen: usually some part of the license can be voided only when license contains requirements which are specifically forbidden by some law.

in which case you still don't have a license

Posted Dec 14, 2008 1:04 UTC (Sun) by pjm (guest, #2080) [Link] (2 responses)

Even if the GPL said “you can only distribute this software if you do something illegal”, you still wouldn't be able to distribute the software:

“If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all.” (§7, GPLv2)

in which case you still don't have a license

Posted Dec 16, 2008 6:54 UTC (Tue) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link] (1 responses)

Is that legal advice? You are a lawyer?

rhetorical questions

Posted Jan 9, 2009 0:50 UTC (Fri) by pjm (guest, #2080) [Link]

Sorry I forgot to add "IANAL" until after I'd already posted that comment (LWN doesn't have a comment edit facility).

I'm not sure what k8to means by the question "is that legal advice", but I believe the answer is fairly obvious for most meanings even without the IANAL disclaimer. I think points can be made more clearly without rhetorical questions such as the above; it actually comes across a bit sarcastic, which is not conducive to helpful discussion.

But that's not the point

Posted Dec 13, 2008 13:37 UTC (Sat) by dark (guest, #8483) [Link]

The "or not distribute it" choice is the one available here. A program that, when run, links against a shared library that is already present on the user's system does not have to be distributed with that shared library. But the FSF claims that it is still covered by that library's license. That's exactly the point of dispute.

This tends not to matter for Linux distributions because they need to provide the library anyway, but it matters for independent software vendors.

Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

Posted Dec 12, 2008 20:50 UTC (Fri) by salimma (subscriber, #34460) [Link]

Even more bizarre would be Trolltech's use of GPL+exceptions. One of the exceptions for Qt is if it's linked to a BSD-licensed code -- if this BSD-licensed code is just a wrapper that is then linked to from proprietary code, they might as well have used LGPL from the start and avoid the exception mess.

That's pretty much my problem with FSF's over-promotion of GPL. The percentage of software out there that is effectively GPLed might be lower than one might think.

Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

Posted Dec 11, 2008 21:52 UTC (Thu) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] (33 responses)

Nothing is safe as long as copyright exists. You want safety, advocate the removal of copyright laws entirely! Yes, that would destroy the GPL too, but it is a downside I would gladly take if copyright vanished. Without copyright sharing would become the norm anyway. It would be hard to prevent it.

If anything could be decompiled (and used) legally, decompilers would probably get much better real quickly. You could imagine receiving a slightly modified binary of some open code and simply inputting the binary and the original source code to the decompiler and ending up with a simple diff of the changes to the original code. It would make decompilers much more useful if they could use a source base with comments and proper variable names and all! With such tools, and the lack of copyright, all code would inherit the benefits of the GPL without any of its downsides, patent protection excepted.

Of course, as you can imagine, there is, and I advocate, a very similar solution to the patent problem. :)

Copyright

Posted Dec 11, 2008 22:32 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (31 responses)

Nothing is safe as long as copyright exists. You want safety, advocate the removal of copyright laws entirely!

That would destroy many industries, including the software industry, the music industry, the film industry, newspapers, magazines, photographers... you really want to go there?

We need reasonable copyright laws. The DMCA is an example of going way too far in one direction, and getting rid of copyright entirely goes way too far in the other.

I run a small software company that produces both GPL'd and traditional proprietary software. Without copyright protection, we'd be out of business and I'd have to lay off all our employees.

Copyright

Posted Dec 11, 2008 23:25 UTC (Thu) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link] (15 responses)

Nothing is safe as long as copyright exists. You want safety, advocate the removal of copyright laws entirely!
That would destroy many industries, including the software industry, the music industry, the film industry, newspapers, magazines, photographers... you really want to go there?
Impressive hyperbole. Some people also say that Free and Open Source Software will destroy the software industry, but I don't believe that either. I think all of those industries will thrive just fine without artificial restrictions. It seems quite clear that the software industry can function just fine with software that everyone can share and build on, and most of the money in the software industry lies in custom software development anyway, so software seems quite safe without copyright. The other industries you mentioned have similar properties: they rely on skills that not everyone has, and people who don't have those skills will pay for people who do. Photographers seem like a perfect example: how much of the money in photography really relies on restricted copying? People pay a photographer to take pictures, and regardless of what they can do with those pictures afterward they need to pay to have them taken in the first place. So yes, I really want to go there.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 2:51 UTC (Fri) by elanthis (guest, #6227) [Link] (14 responses)

Yes, Open Source / Free Software still lets the software market survive because people are paid to write custom, in-house software or modify publicly available code. Aside from the fact that "in-house software" is just "proprietary code that you just don't know about" and that the FSF is actually against that stuff too, you're apparently confused about the differences between being paid to make something work and being paid for creating something that has no function on its own.

Novels, art work, movies... these are not software. People do not get paid to create novels just for the sake of having a novel -- they get paid because the novels sell, and they sell because people have to buy them to get a hold of them. That's not like software, where having the software exist is an economic advantage in itself, even if others can get a hold of it for free. Free Software destroys the market for selling software -- that is a fact. The software industry as a whole survives because software -- as a tool, rather than as a creative work -- is still worth good money even if you can't sell it. A novel isn't. Nor is a painting, or a movie, or any other purely creative work. Outside of things that a company needs in order to create some still-sellable product (training videos, manuals, and advertising artwork, mostly), the creative output of the world will vastly decrease. Even a lot of the "hobbyist" art is still made with the assumption that at least a _little_ profit can be made off of it; enough to recuperate costs if nothing else.

Corporate greed and copyright abuse really suck. Anarchy is also a source of suck. Moving from one extreme to the other just means that we go from creative works being too locked down to creative works being drastically reduced in number.

Frankly, you're a fucking idiot. Thank God people like you don't get to actually determine the laws... or lack of laws, as the case may be.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 4:32 UTC (Fri) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] (11 responses)

Aside from the fact that "in-house software" is just "proprietary code that you just don't know about"

Proprietary only because it is implicitly unless declared not by copyright law. None of it would be discouraged or not written without copyright protection, so how is it relevant?

Free Software destroys the market for selling software -- that is a fact.

Yeah!! That would be delightful. It would still get created though! :)

The software industry as a whole survives because software -- as a tool, rather than as a creative work -- is still worth good money even if you can't sell it.

How is it worth money if you can't sell it? I suppose you meant is was worth paying money to create it.

Nor is a painting, or a movie, or any other purely creative work.

I guess all those movies were made for free before they had VCRs to sell them, no one ever thought of showing them in a theater for money! Do you suppose it took copyright for the Greeks to build amphitheaters to have plays in? I guess all those masterpieces sitting in museums, housing worship and many businesses, commissioned and created without copyright are just a figment of our imaginations. :) Your wild hyperbole is wildly contradicted by history. It always amazes me how authoritarian propaganda has just as strong a resistance to facts in people's minds as religion does.

the creative output of the world will vastly decrease

Even if this speculation were true, it hardly justifies the loss of freedom. Your speculative end does not justify the copyright means.

Even a lot of the "hobbyist" art is still made with the assumption that at least a _little_ profit can be made off of it; enough to recuperate costs if nothing else.

Assumptions or not it would probably still get created. I might assume that the cute chick will sleep with me because I write a great song, but I hardly think I should be entitled to enforce that, do you?

Anarchy is also a source of suck.

Hardly, I dream for it. The worst anarchy ever would not likely involve someone stealing 30% of my annual income. It takes a large government to commit large crimes... And, even as an anarchist I refrain from cursing at people on such a respectful forum, relax brother. I think we need more anarchists, come join us in peace and love and stop screaming at people who are not trying to force you to do anything. ;) We just want to be free!

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 14:03 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (7 responses)

I've long found anarchy curious, because it's self-evidently unstable. As
an anarchist how would you stop people from stealing the entire contents
of your house? You could hire men with guns to stop it (-> paying for
police), but how would you stop them from doing exactly the same thing?
Relying on their reputation sounds all very good until you realise that
you'd have to do that *every single day* and the first day you're unlucky,
you've lost everything.

(I had a discussion with a libertarian a while back in which it was
seriously proposed that streetlights should stay off unless you'd paid for
that specific streetlight, and that lighting away from your home should be
implemented by street-by-street reciprocal agreements. Thus we save the
huge expense of paying for public street lighting... and spend fifty times
as much on lawyers for an unreliable lighting system instead. Yay.)

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 14:50 UTC (Fri) by angdraug (subscriber, #7487) [Link] (1 responses)

I can't speak for anarcho-capitalism brand of libertarians (the kind that would charge you for using streetlights), but if you're really curious, proper (i.e. anti-capitalist) anarchists do have a plan or two for the problem of crime, among many others. To keep this Linux-related, just apt-get install anarchism to read that FAQ online.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 14:53 UTC (Fri) by angdraug (subscriber, #7487) [Link]

to read that FAQ online

should read as "to read that FAQ offline", of course.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 15:19 UTC (Fri) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (4 responses)

Actually...

What happens around my town is that building corporations come in, buy up a farm on the edge of town, then build a cluster of houses. They build the streets, provide for gas/water/sewage/electricity. (The electricity is provided by another private company working under contract from the state, but the gas/water/sewage, is city provided, but not city built.)

So for things like streetlamps, garbage collection (which is another entirely private company), street cleanup and maintenance for those communities then everything is paid for by individuals who buy the houses and join the housing community.

All it all it works out quite well and even though your dealing with relatively small numbers of people the services are usually cheaper then what you pay in additional city taxes and the services are higher quality.

Dividing up street lamp into a individual ownership thing is a bit extreme, but that's one thing that can at least be taken care of fairly obviously without much need for high-levels of government.

------------------------------------------

Anarchy is a idealized society.

In a perfect society there is no need for any government or law or whatever because everybody behaves themselves. If they were to break any laws in todays society it would because they had a good and sound reason to.

Of course we both know that would never happen.

----------------------------

One thing though.... If you had a private police force that worked for the members in a community and had their paychecks come from those people directly and could be fired for pissing them off...

then they would be spending a great deal more of their time patrolling neighborhoods, investigating crimes, and protecting private property then going around and writing traffic violation tickets and essentially terrorizing motorists. (in a mild way, not a 'blow up your family' way)

It wouldn't be much different then what you have in small communities were you have a sheriffs that is elected and hired by the town to protect it, then that sheriff then selects deputies to assist him.

Of course in larger towns this sort of concept goes to shit. Stuffing millions of people into a relatively small area has always been a terrible idea, but it's just how things happen. And it destroys most of the justification for things like private police forces and whatnot.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 17:42 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (guest, #19270) [Link] (3 responses)

"What happens around my town is that building corporations come in, buy up a farm on the edge of town, then build a cluster of houses. They build the streets, provide for gas/water/sewage/electricity. (The electricity is provided by another private company working under contract from the state, but the gas/water/sewage, is city provided, but not city built.)"

In many places (like those around where I live), the infrastructure is typically built by the developer, but to specifications negotiated with the city/township/county, and ownership and operation of that infrastructure is passed to the government at completion of development (typically in phases as the development is built out).

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 19:02 UTC (Fri) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (2 responses)

Well ya. Everythings built to standards.

And usually the small communities are built with a expectation that they'll get absorbed by the city as the city extends it's boundries every decade or so.

Quite often these communities try to resist getting absorbed legally through lawsuites and whatnot once they realise the drop in quality of services and increased costs that are associated with getting absorbed into the larger city. That and the drop in quality of education with the combined increase in cost per child that you get by being tied into a larger school district is one thing that people tend to especially go to arms about.

A few places have successfully resisted, but it's a minority.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 19:11 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (guest, #19270) [Link] (1 responses)

My experience is that there are people who do resist annexation, usually strictly because of taxes. There are also typically people who want to be annexed, usually because they want the enhanced services that the city provides.

Obviously, specific circumstances will affect how people feel. I don't personally know of situations where annexation represented a downgrading of services, but I'm sure they exist. Usually the resisters claim that they don't want the enhanced services (often including better-funded schools, access to park districts and libraries, etc.).

But, again, circumstances vary...

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 19:54 UTC (Fri) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Probably you have a better city government. Ours sucks.

Copyright

Posted Dec 15, 2008 0:20 UTC (Mon) by xaoc (guest, #54140) [Link] (2 responses)

>How is it worth money if you can't sell it? I suppose you meant is was worth paying money to create it.

Don't you think software is worth money because it helps getting something done eventhough it cannot be sold for money?

Copyright

Posted Dec 15, 2008 4:44 UTC (Mon) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] (1 responses)

I wasn't actually debating the value of software, which is I assume what
you really mean: "value", not "worth money". I was just trying to be
point out an obvious verbal contradiction.

By definition: something is "not worth money" if you cannot sell it for
money! There is no debating this, it is what you are saying if you say
that you cannot sell it for money.

You probably mean that it has value which is not monetary, make sense?

Copyright

Posted Dec 15, 2008 7:17 UTC (Mon) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

another way of looking at it is how much would you be willing to pay for software that would give you the equivalent functionality.

something that you cannot sell can be worth quite a bit of money if it would cost a lot of money to replace it.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 13:56 UTC (Fri) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link]

Frankly, you're a fucking idiot.
For a moment I feared I had to sit down and take the time to argue against some of your points. Thankfully you've already done a superb job of discrediting yourself and my efforts are no longer needed.

Frankly...

Posted Dec 12, 2008 16:25 UTC (Fri) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

I hate to complain, but this is heading into the sort of discussion that I would really rather not see on LWN. We can disagree without being vulgar and insulting. Any chance of reining it in just a little bit?

Copyright

Posted Dec 11, 2008 23:51 UTC (Thu) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] (8 responses)

It might (though it probably wouldn't) destroy some of the /industries/ you mentioned, but it's telling that part way through your list you switched from industries to creative products, and then to creators. Truth is, nobody outside of the music industry itself cares about the music industry, and the same for the movie business. People made music before the "labels" and they'll make music after the labels are gone.

Let's take a look at those creators again. Think it through, how does the elimination of a law granting a monopoly on /copying/ prevent people from taking photographs?

Hmm, it doesn't OK, so let's pretend that rather than conjuring up the bogeyman of /all/ photographers being "destroyed" you instead meant to say "the tiny minority of people who make their living entirely through the creation of photographs will no longer be able to do so". Well, suddenly that doesn't sound like a catastrophe any more, but we ought to address it, because you seem a bit unhappy...

Once again, though, the answer is "it doesn't". You can still pay a photographer, and a photographer can still choose or not to do what you tell them in exchange for money ("employment"). The role of the photographer, and their career path is changed, but not eliminated. There is no risk that things will go unphotographed from lack of copyright law, quite the reverse in fact. In the absence of copyright you can take photographs of things for which you'd previously have needed expensive or impossible rights clearances. Creativity is actually expanded.

All that copyright does is create an artificial monopoly. The monopoly isn't for the good of consumers (who can choose to pay for things, or not, in either system) nor for creators (who may get paid for creating, or not, in either system) but for another group, of which you seem to be a member, publishers, who get paid only if there is a monopoly, and who serve no inherent purpose.

That last bit is interesting, when copyright was /invented/ publishers were a relatively new idea, and they appeared to serve a very important purpose. The publisher had capital investment and he used it to make many copies of a work, which was a risk. If the copies sold, he made a profit, and this profit enabled to the publisher to continue to invest in making many copies of other works.

As you may have noticed, making copies of works became effectively zero cost some time between then and now. So did the marginal cost of advertising, shipping, and other factors. Publishers have gone from essential to at best a convenience and at worst a nuisance.

What copyright does in the post-scarcity era of digital information is distort the market. It creates the situation where your "small software company" writes software not because it needs software, and not even because someone else wants the software, but because it hopes, blindly, that lots of people will be willing to pay a small amount for individual copies of the software. And if you're wrong? The company goes to the wall. Copyright has made you a gambler. Without copyright, your company would exist to fill customer contracts, creating the software people want, rather than the software you hope someone might need.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 0:30 UTC (Fri) by mgb (guest, #3226) [Link] (4 responses)

You can create works for hire with or without copyright. But works for hire are rarely "creative".

Without copyright, original creative works are stifled. There's no incentive, whether monetary or social, in creating original music or art or software that can be taken and distributed under somebody else's name.

Copyright terms should be sensible - perhaps ten years - and software patents should not exist, but copyright itself is too valuable to surrender.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 2:51 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (1 responses)

This is why, I gather, some european legal systems have the concept of an author's moral right to be identified as such, distinct from copyright and non-transferable. I thought there were some moves to enshrine this in EU law, but don't know the status of that.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable will chime in.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 14:46 UTC (Fri) by k3ninho (subscriber, #50375) [Link]

The Berne Convention (home to the worldwide scope for protection of my copyrights in your country) identifies the moral right to be known as author. See Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works at Wikipedia.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 11:06 UTC (Fri) by niner (guest, #26151) [Link] (1 responses)

> Without copyright, original creative works are stifled. There's no
incentive, whether monetary or social, in creating original music or art
or software that can be taken and distributed under somebody else's name.

So I must be mistaken, that having thousands of people yelling your name,
because you are the one on the stage performing your music which they
happen to like is a social incentive. Or the money those people payed for
entry to such a concert would be any monetary incentive.

This must also be the reason why there is no music, art or literature,
that's more than 300 years old, which is the time when copyright was
created. Thank god we have it...

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 16:33 UTC (Fri) by mgb (guest, #3226) [Link]

You appear to have just awoken from three hundred years of sleep so kindly permit us to update you on some of the developments over the last few centuries. Printing presses are much more common and much faster and there are new and amazing technologies such as color copiers, DVD burners, and computers.

Bands can make a few hundred dollars per concert when their promotion consists solely of free downloads by their existing fans. Bands can make a few hundred dollars per head at a concert when they are aggressively promoted through copyrighted materials. The choice belongs to the bands, not the anti-copyright parasites, which is as it should be.

Similarly software authors can choose how to license their creations, whether GPL or BSD or something nasty they made up after reading the first chapter of a law book. The choice belongs to the software authors, not the anti-copyright parasites, which is as it should be.

Without copyright their would be no shareware and no GPL, and far fewer people would become FLOSS authors for the honor of seeing their creations make fortunes for Bill Gates and nothing for them.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 16:53 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (2 responses)

Think it through, how does the elimination of a law granting a monopoly on /copying/ prevent people from taking photographs?

Of course it does not. But what incentive is there to become a professional photographer? You spend thousands on education, tens of thousands on equipment, and you take an amazing photo... which anyone is then free to reproduce and even sell without compensating you.

People made music before the "labels" and they'll make music after the labels are gone.

I don't care about labels. But without copyright, there would be almost no way to make money as a musician. You'd sell one CD, and that would be the end of it. Anyone else could copy and sell it without repercussions.

All that copyright does is create an artificial monopoly.

Yes, of course! Because the framers of copyright law wisely realized that a limited, time-limited monopoly was a huge incentive to encourage the creation of new works. Copyright law can provide a benefit to society. The fact that current copyright law sometimes does not is no reason to advocate throwing the whole thing out.

What copyright does in the post-scarcity era of digital information is distort the market. It creates the situation where your "small software company" writes software not because it needs software, and not even because someone else wants the software, but because it hopes, blindly, that lots of people will be willing to pay a small amount for individual copies of the software. And if you're wrong? The company goes to the wall. Copyright has made you a gambler. Without copyright, your company would exist to fill customer contracts, creating the software people want, rather than the software you hope someone might need.

Have you ever actually run a software company? I've been running one for nine years. Initially, every single one of our products was GPLd, and we survived on support contracts and development contracts. This did not scale. Creating a proprietary product has enabled us to increase our revenues and staff size by a factor of 10. It has enabled me to employ some really great developers who spend part of their time developing free software. And it has enabled us to produce a really nice product that (frankly) could never have happened under a Free Software development model. Before I started the proprietary product, I even *asked* on the mailing list for its GPL'd core if anyone would sponsor the new product (which I then would GPL.) No-one was willing to spend the money.

The fact is that copyright law permitted us to reduce the cost of production to the point where development of the product was feasible. Without copyright law, we'd be out of business and several talented FOSS developers would be out of work.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 18:23 UTC (Fri) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] (1 responses)

What's the incentive? And here's you supposedly running a company. Come on dskoll, if you're not lying about your business experience then you already know lesson #1 it's not about the money. No matter how much they pay, boring firms don't attract superstar programmers, it's not about the money. Wasn't before copyright, won't be afterwards. No, the incentive isn't money, the monetary compensation just keeps body and soul together.

The way it actually works for the vast majority of actual professional photographers is that they get compensated (or least the deal is made) up front, and the amazing photo comes afterwards. The most notable exception are the paparazzi, but (a) are you really putting paps in the list of good things about copyright? most of them hate the job, and they're the ones doing it (b) even with copyright the paps get ripped off all the time by newspapers and magazines. They might actually be better off without it (c) there are a lot of failed paps. It's back to the gambling I mentioned already.

And then there's musicians. Once again, it's not about the money. Very few people "make it big" and those who do will usually still end up penniless because copyright doesn't protect them, it protects the guy with the lawyers whose contract they had to sign to "make it big". The KLF wrote a book about how to have a hit single. You're thinking "free money" right? Wrong. The book explicitly warns you that having a hit single will lose you money. I know a dozen or more people who've been in a "real band" and they all had day jobs, because it doesn't pay. If you're /really/ good and you make it into a real job, where you get up and write songs, and practice and then go play songs live for an audience, then you can make a good living. But then you're not affected by copyright - bands that do this make most of their income from live performance. Typical professional musicians though aren't in a band. They get paid as work-for-hire, and so once again, copyright doesn't apply. Similarly, most composers aren't writing music in the hope that hundreds of people will buy the score and pay $50 each, they're writing it under contract "Intro to radio quiz show, upbeat and quirky".

You seem very confident that the monopoly has helped in some meaningful way. Actual studies are much less certain. Looking at the US for example, the US used to be a "pirate nation", it didn't observe copyright so that its citizens could get rich printing books written by Englishmen without paying royalties. Proponents of copyright said, as you are saying, that it would power an explosive increase in creativity because of the new incentive. They got their way but we don't really see the promised new creativity in the historical record. Quickly this argument was waved aside, in favour of the argument that the term of copyright needed to be increased in order to ensure the incentive was retained. And that's the same argument still being made today with copyright already essentially perpetual. "Longer terms, we must have longer terms" say the publishers. The creators are of course long dead.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 19:06 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

What's the incentive? And here's you supposedly running a company. Come on dskoll, if you're not lying about your business experience then you already know lesson #1 it's not about the money.

I run Roaring Penguin Software. Absolutely, starting Roaring Penguin was not initially about the money. Now that I have employees and have to meet payroll, it's quite a bit about the money.

No, the incentive isn't money, the monetary compensation just keeps body and soul together.

Without copyright protection, I would have no money to pay my employees. It's that simple.

The way it actually works for the vast majority of actual professional photographers is that they get compensated (or least the deal is made) up front, and the amazing photo comes afterwards.

Please ask a professional photographer for comments on your idea to abolish copyright. Then get back to us.

And then there's musicians. Once again, it's not about the money.

Please ask a professional musician for comments on your idea to abolish copyright. Then get back to us. (It's true that very, very few musicians make it big. But quite a number make a decent living selling their own CDs and music, and a vast number wouldn't get into the business if it weren't for the possibility of making it.)

Please note: I'm not saying that copyright law as it stands now is perfect. All I'm saying is that throwing it out rather than trying to reform it is a bad idea.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 0:23 UTC (Fri) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] (5 responses)

If your logic were correct, the existence of free software and free content such as linux, wikipedia... would have already destroyed many of the industries that you mention. Since we can see that is not the case, you must be overestimating something, or just plain wrong. :)

Would it alter those industries? No doubt. For certain many of those alterations would be for the better. Would there be some losses? Probably, most would pale compared to the benefits. Unjust laws are unjust laws whether they have good or bad consequences. Regulating the abstract is unjust no matter what fancy names or noble goals you assign to it.

Physical property, i.e. property that is unreplicatable, needs to be regulated one way or another, whether you believe in personal property (I will claim everyone does), or communal property only. So any laws applied to physical property at least have a solid ground to justify their existence, with or without a government. The lack of regulation of physical property (with or without) government leads to obvious continual conflict.

If however, physical property could be replicated, it would be insane to think that it should therefore still be regulated. Why should I not be able to replicate my universe without you or anyone else in it? :) On what ethical grounds could anyone stand to prevent such a thing if it were possible? Religious ones only most likely.

What extra constraints do abstract replicatable things have over imaginary replicatable physical property that somehow mysteriously makes it merit regulation then? I will claim none. Unlike physical property, abstract things cannot be regulated without governments, it is unnatural. Imagine the dog claiming ownership to the idea of hunting in packs? Preposterous! But dogs certainly know who owns the meal they just caught. And if they caught it together they even know under what agreement, the alpha dog will get to eat first. No government intervention required, regulation of physical property is natural, even non humans do it.

Regulating abstract "property" on the other hand, is very unnatural.

I still remember as a child having been first introduced to copyright (and seeing others introduced to it), it was very strange! It was hard to accept that something might be morally wrong with sharing. I think the evidence today shows that most people still don't accept it to be morally wrong to share, even if they accept the need for the laws against it pushed on them from above!

I dread the thought of my children having to distort their minds to attempt to comprehend such an injustice when they become old enough. However, I have no problem with my daughter telling my son that a doll is hers (if it is). I do not cringe when she does, it is natural and healthy. I will not be upset if she resists him taking it physically. But certainly I am delighted when she shares it with him (on her own).

But if my son were to tell a friend (when he gets older) that his friend cannot hop skip and jump the same way he does or he will beat him up, naturally I would be upset (no matter how creative or unique his hop skip and jump is!) Copyright and patents only do the same. Why do they get so much respect simply because they purport to have some "noble" and unprovable goal to them: "to further promote useful arts and innovation", blah blah blah, or in your case, support industries that would be destroyed without them?

Yet, these laws do so much harm that is provable! Real harm, that each one of us can feel every time we want to share music or videos with our friends. Or, reuse a building block as software engineers. Or, the slightly more distant but still real harm of preventing drugs from being sold cheaply to people dying. This music can, undeniably, be copied at little cost, unlike the weak presumption that they would not have been created without the copyright reward. These drugs often do not cost much to manufacture, an undebatable fact, unlike the other weak presumption that they would not have been created without the patent reward. As for the software building blocks, I do not think that I need to elaborate on that one here.

Preventing us from sharing!!! How can we be so hypocritically constantly scolding our children with the words "share" and then telling them that they may not share the things that they could share so easily, abstract ideas, words, sounds!! Does sharing not hold any value if it does not entail sacrifice? Obsurd! Abolish anti-sharing laws now! :)

It is a crime that wild speculation over "potential innovation" can reduce people's freedoms. I don't believe those speculations one bit, quite to the contrary. By definition these laws restrict innovation! They prevent new ideas from being used by others, they freeze innovation in time since it cannot be expanded upon freely. That is a real consequence, no speculation required.

These laws are nothing more than protectionist laws. They ensure that whomever runs an industry today will run the industry tomorrow. The first comer has a natural advantage in any market, he does not need protection! If anything, the newcomers, the actual potential innovators do. The establishment does not need to innovate to maintain dominance, it only needs to prevent innovation. It is quite clear why these laws exists. Want to encourage innovation, remove these laws so that the establishment will continue to need to innovate to stay ahead. Believe me, I will not shed any tears if it destroys a protected industry, even one I work in (but fear not, it won't.) :)

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 1:06 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (3 responses)

why would a publisher pay a writer if their competitor could wait for them to publish a book, buy one copy, and flood the market with copies?

you could argue that the head start the first publisher has would protect him, but if the second publisher has better marketing or distribution channels that would not be the case.

digital copies may be effectively free, but the work to generate the first copy is not. if you eliminate copyright then the entire cost of creating the work must be recovered by the first sale (because the creator has no reason to believe that they will ever make a second sale)

even in software:

many people do believe that the code they write should be able to be used by anyone for any purpose, those people select BSD licenses.

other people believe that other people should be able to use the software they write, but only if you share your changes.

if you eliminated copyright entirely it would be like making everything be under the BSD license (you may be able to copy something without violating copyright, but if the source isn't published you can't get at it to copy it)

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 3:27 UTC (Fri) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] (2 responses)

many people do believe that the code they write should be able to be used by anyone for any purpose, those people select BSD licenses.

That is simply not true. Please explain how I can legally use BSD code after it is compiled and included in some proprietary binary? - I can't. You did say anyone, not just the first person to receive the code.

other people believe that other people should be able to use the software they write, but only if you share your changes.

Many people believe that this requirement is only an ethical requirement to help counteract the evil of copyright. If this were the only thing that copyright provided, I certainly would deem it unethical. It is only because of copyright that the restrictions that the GPL imposes are honorable. It's a little like Robin Hood stealing from the rich, we honor it because he is presumably stealing back what was stolen from the poor in the first place. If the rich however acquired their loot ethically his actions would be dispecable.

if you eliminated copyright entirely it would be like making everything be under the BSD license (you may be able to copy something without violating copyright, but if the source isn't published you can't get at it to copy it)

No, not at all. Without copyright all code would be much closer to the GPL. As mentioned above, with BSD code I may be prohibited from using your code if it is relabeled proprietary. This cannot happen to any code without copyright. The worst that can happen without copyright is code obfuscation and tivoization, but there would be no legal barriers!!! As mentioned in my parent post, this would just lead to better tools to deal with obfuscation and tivoization making the code effectively GPL. I did forget about tivoization in my parent post, but that is only a GPL3 protection.

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 11:13 UTC (Fri) by hppnq (guest, #14462) [Link]

Imagine there's no Cisco, it's easy if you try
No RMS behind us, above us only Skype
Imagine all the people
Abandoning copyright

You may say you don't need it
And you're not the only one
I really hope someday some anarchist will write something non-copyrighted but intelligent and immensely popular and widespread about peace, love, tivoization and tolerance like the Bill of Rights, the Magna Carta or a great recipe for chicken tikka or maybe some kernel driver
And the world will live as one

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 17:49 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (guest, #19270) [Link]

"That is simply not true. Please explain how I can legally use BSD code after it is compiled and included in some proprietary binary? - I can't. You did say anyone, not just the first person to receive the code."

Presumably, you can get a copy from wherever the author of the proprietary program did. You have to distinguish between "the code" (the thing the original author wrote and licensed) and "a particular copy or derivative of the code" (which may or may not be available or visible to you).

Copyright

Posted Dec 12, 2008 2:22 UTC (Fri) by nlucas (subscriber, #33793) [Link]

+1^9999

There may be details we could disagree about (in terms of the real implementation of what the law should be), but the main points were very well postulated.

Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

Posted Dec 12, 2008 7:33 UTC (Fri) by Los__D (guest, #15263) [Link]

That would bring back the bad old age of trade secrets.

Free Software would be at a great disadvantage, as sharing would only go one way.

No copyrights should only exist with forced openness.

Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

Posted Dec 11, 2008 23:01 UTC (Thu) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link]

Yup. But first you'll have to put the work in to get it up to par, seeing as most of the people who will have already done that work will have kept it private.

Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

Posted Dec 12, 2008 16:50 UTC (Fri) by petegn (guest, #847) [Link]

>> Wanna be safe - use BSD instead of Linux. :-)

Yea Yea Yea for sure <plonk>

This is NOT a Linux vs. BSD (distribution) issue

Posted Dec 11, 2008 22:03 UTC (Thu) by faramir (subscriber, #2327) [Link] (7 responses)

The flames have already started on GPL vs. BSD license and distributions.
I would like to point out, however, that in fact Linux (the kernel)
and *BSD (the distributions) aren't at issue here. From FSF's complaint:

6. Plaintiff holds copyright in several computer programs, including the GNU C Library, GNU Coreutils, GNU Readline, GNU Parted, GNU Wget, GNU Compiler Collection, GNU Binu tils, and GNU Debugger (“the Programs”).

You will will note that all of the programs in question are not tied to a particular kernel and many of them aren't libraries (and therefore LGPL would not have have been appropriate).

Since both Linux and *BSD distributions ship (or make available) most of these programs which distribution you use really isn't that relevant.

This is NOT a Linux vs. BSD (distribution) issue

Posted Dec 11, 2008 23:38 UTC (Thu) by sfeam (subscriber, #2841) [Link] (6 responses)

Plaintiff holds copyright in several computer programs, including the GNU C Library, GNU Coreutils, GNU Readline, GNU Parted, GNU Wget, GNU Compiler Collection, GNU Binutils, and GNU Debugger (“the Programs”).

The usual sore point is that a vendor has modified the code and not provided the source for the modified versions. In this case it seems unlikely that Linksys has modified any of the programs listed above, although I may be missing something. The complaint would make more sense if it were directed at a modified driver or boot-related kernel mod that Linksys made to support their hardware. But then the FSF wouldn't be the copyright holder.

Yeah, I know that there can be a violation of the GPL even for distributed copies of executables built from the baseline unmodified code. But I find it hard to work up much indignation over that, as compared to the case where a vendor is sitting on modifications to the original source.

This is NOT a Linux vs. BSD (distribution) issue

Posted Dec 12, 2008 1:01 UTC (Fri) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

We don't know what changes they've made until they release the sources.

This is NOT a Linux vs. BSD (distribution) issue

Posted Dec 12, 2008 1:07 UTC (Fri) by laf0rge (subscriber, #6469) [Link]

you would be surprised how many things are typically modified in those embedded systems. custom modified toolchains (esp. in the gcc mips backend) are among the things that I've seen for years.

This is NOT a Linux vs. BSD (distribution) issue

Posted Dec 12, 2008 2:06 UTC (Fri) by MattPerry (guest, #46341) [Link] (2 responses)

> Yeah, I know that there can be a violation of the GPL even for
> distributed copies of executables built from the baseline unmodified
> code. But I find it hard to work up much indignation over that, as
> compared to the case where a vendor is sitting on modifications to the
> original source.

I don't find it hard at all. If they didn't agree to the license, then they shouldn't use the code. If they used the code and distributed executable, they need to abide by the license.

This is NOT a Linux vs. BSD (distribution) issue

Posted Dec 12, 2008 19:06 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (guest, #19270) [Link] (1 responses)

I agree that you should abide by the license.

However, I also think the license is wrong to require that every redistributor of *unmodified* programs must redistribute the source. A link to a well-known, persistent source, identifying a specific version, should be sufficient.

This is NOT a Linux vs. BSD (distribution) issue

Posted Dec 13, 2008 13:54 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

But it is sufficient. According to GPLv2, 3.b:
3. You may copy and distribute the Program [...] provided that you also [...]: b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange
A link qualifies as "written offer", the internet is a customary medium, and any reasonable person would be satisfied with that.

This is NOT a Linux vs. BSD (distribution) issue

Posted Dec 13, 2008 7:50 UTC (Sat) by trasz (guest, #45786) [Link]

Of the things you mentioned, the only ones included in BSD are GCC, Binutils and GDB. Nothing that one would install on a wireless router. Rest of the stuff - coreutils, glibc etc - have no use in BSD system.

Cisco likes OSS

Posted Dec 12, 2008 2:13 UTC (Fri) by mmcgrath (guest, #44906) [Link] (9 responses)

This is too bad to hear. I've been to a couple of conventions where I see Cisco people interested in the various goings on. I guess that doesn't mean they're interested in giving back and all but at least its on their radar. Too many other companies avoid it altogether.

I'd hate to think that this is going to push Cisco away from OSS competely.

Cisco likes OSS

Posted Dec 12, 2008 2:55 UTC (Fri) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

Nah, they'll come clean and all will be rosy.

Cisco likes OSS

Posted Dec 12, 2008 3:36 UTC (Fri) by jwb (guest, #15467) [Link]

Cisco has always been a rip-off operation. IOS was stolen from the start. Cisco eventually had to pay a huge sum to Stanford University and the guy who actually wrote IOS in order to settle the bad blood.

I would say that if you see Cisco people prowling around at conferences they are probably just looking for good ideas to steal (or bad ideas, judging from the quality of their software products.)

Cisco likes OSS

Posted Dec 12, 2008 7:05 UTC (Fri) by tetromino (guest, #33846) [Link] (3 responses)

> I'd hate to think that this is going to push Cisco away from OSS competely.

Yep. Just have a look at their excellent Linux-friendly WRT54GL router (comes with source code!) It would really suck if thanks to this lawsuit, some higher-up at Cisco decides to stop releasing open source based products altogether.

I really hope that Cisco and FSF can come to an agreement before much more money gets wasted on lawyers and before frayed tempers make reconciliation impossible.

Cisco likes OSS

Posted Dec 12, 2008 9:19 UTC (Fri) by dwmw2 (subscriber, #2063) [Link] (2 responses)

Just have a look at their excellent Linux-friendly WRT54GL router (comes with source code!)
Last time I looked, it didn't come with the complete source code. The wireless driver was still binary-only, in violation of §2 of the GPL.

Cisco likes OSS

Posted Dec 12, 2008 14:10 UTC (Fri) by tetromino (guest, #33846) [Link] (1 responses)

In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this License.

As long as the binary wireless driver was in a state of "mere aggregation" (i.e. it was a loadable module and not compiled into the kernel image), and as long as the wireless driver wasn't a "derived work" (wasn't heavily based on existing kernel code), Linksys was not violating paragraph 2, at least as far as the kernel is concerned.

[But in any case, that issue is not directly relevant to the lawsuit: the FSF does not have copyright for the kernel, and so doesn't have standing sue Linksys for the binary driver. Instead, they are claiming that Linksys did not provide source code for Glibc and GCC, and it was my impression that at least for the WRT54GL - don't know about other Linksys products - that this was not the case.]

Cisco likes OSS

Posted Dec 12, 2008 14:30 UTC (Fri) by dwmw2 (subscriber, #2063) [Link]

"As long as the binary wireless driver was in a state of "mere aggregation" (i.e. it was a loadable module and not compiled into the kernel image)..."
That's an 'interesting' interpretation of the phrase "mere aggregation on a volume of a storage or distribution medium", and not one with which I agree.

To me, it's obviously part of a greater whole; a coherent work which relies on both parts for its correct operation. And those parts are intimately tied together.

Some people make wild claims about what is meant by "mere aggregation..." which basically cover every form of combining works, and which would render the whole text about 'independent and separate works in themselves' completely ineffective — which is obviously not a reasonable interpretation.

You can't just say "well, I used 1000 lines of your source code and I aggregrated them with 1000 lines of my source code, in the same executable... and that's merely aggregation". It is aggregation, and the word 'mere' has no specific meaning so doesn't really help. But it's obviously inconsistent with the intent of the licence.

Your own interpretation doesn't seem to be very far from that extreme.

But neither of us is right or wrong until/unless a court has ruled on the matter.

Cisco likes OSS

Posted Dec 12, 2008 8:19 UTC (Fri) by TRS-80 (guest, #1804) [Link] (2 responses)

Well, the FSF's requested relief includes
(1) That the Court issue injunctive relief against Defendant, and that Defendant, its directors, principals, officers, agents, representatives, servants, employees, attorneys, successors and assigns, and all others in active concert or participation with Defendant, be enjoined and restrained from copying, modifying, distributing or making any other infringing use of Plaintiff’s software;
which would put a big dent in Cisco's OSS use, to put it midly.

I don't think the FSF actually wants that - it's probably a stick to get Cisco to agree to the FSF's prior demands:

a) Defendent must achieve “full compliance [with the Licenses] with respect to all Linksys products.”

b) “Linksys shall appoint an officer within its organization to serve as a Free Software Compliance Officer and provide FSF with the identity and contact information of the FSCO.”

c) “Linksys shall undertake substantial efforts to notify all previous recipients of FSF code from Linksys in a manner that did not comply with the applicable license of their rights in that software and, in particular, of their right to obtain a copy of the complete and corresponding source code from Linksys.”

d) “Linksys shall compensate FSF ... for its past distribution of FSF programs in a manner that did not comply with the applicable free software license.”

Cisco likes OSS

Posted Dec 12, 2008 14:07 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

I think this is proportionate. The FSF gave Cisco *five years* to comply,
and they didn't bother. They obviously never would unless forced.

(Isn't this the first time the FSF has had to do something like this?
*Everyone* else has buckled and complied with the GPL faster than this,
usually much faster.)

Cisco likes OSS

Posted Dec 16, 2008 9:36 UTC (Tue) by whacker (guest, #55546) [Link]

> which would put a big dent in Cisco's OSS use, to put it midly.

No, It would not.

All Cisco would have to do is to publish sources, with modifications, if any. Said modifications will almost certainly be useless to anyone outside of Cisco, so they will not lose any competitive advantage.

Between the pain of publishing sources and having to re-engineer an entire range of products, the former course will come easier.

Moral rights, etc

Posted Dec 12, 2008 10:38 UTC (Fri) by edmundo (guest, #616) [Link]

According to Wikipedia, moral rights are included in the Berne Convention, but the implementation varies wildly between jurisdictions. For example, in some countries they have to be explicitly asserted, in some countries they can be waived, and I think I've heard about moral rights being cited in France in cases where the author had been dead for a long time, which seems totally wrong to me.

* * *

"If you don't like to license, too bad." It's not always a case of the user not wanting to GPL-license their own code. Sometimes one wants to combine code from several sources, but the licences are incompatible.

* * *

I wouldn't advocate totally abolishing copyright, but the people who claim that the economy would collapse without it are exaggerating wildly. Most of the world's great music was created without the "benefit" of copyright (though one could perhaps argue that more of Bach's work might have survived if there had been a financial incentive to publish it - he himself published almost nothing, and some people estimate that more than half of his orchestral work has been lost). Also, it's rubbish to claim that works for hire are rarely "creative". Even today a lot of art is commissioned - paid for in advance.

You don't need copyright to prevent people passing off other work as their own. In many jurisdictions (including the USA?) this is already covered by other, non-copyright law.

It seems likely that pop music and bestselling novels, as we know them today, would disappear if copyright were abolished, but we could survive without them, and perhaps we'd be better off without them: perhaps without copyright we'd end up with more diversity in popular culture.

Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

Posted Dec 12, 2008 17:46 UTC (Fri) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]

From someone who knows a thing or two about gpl violations ;)

http://laforge.gnumonks.org/weblog/2008/12/12/#20081212-f...

Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

Posted Dec 13, 2008 3:09 UTC (Sat) by wheelsIII (guest, #55155) [Link] (3 responses)

several comments...

1.
"As long as the binary wireless driver was in a state of "mere aggregation" (i.e. it was a loadable module and not compiled into the kernel image)..."

That's an 'interesting' interpretation of the phrase "mere aggregation on a volume of a storage or distribution medium", and not one with which I agree."

All wireless chip manufacturers insist on this, and have legal opinion to back them up. And remember it is not the same executable, nor does it need to borrow on freeware. There are a number of very competent well paid programmers working on the problem, not a bunch of part-timers. And why do they take this approach, you ask?

2.

"
Physical property, i.e. property that is unreplicatable, needs to be regulated one way or another, whether you believe in personal property (I will claim everyone does), or communal property only. So any laws applied to physical property at least have a solid ground to justify their existence, with or without a government. The lack of regulation of physical property (with or without) government leads to obvious continual conflict.

If however, physical property could be replicated, it would be insane to think that it should therefore still be regulated. Why should I not be able to replicate my universe without you or anyone else in it? :) On what ethical grounds could anyone stand to prevent such a thing if it were possible? Religious ones only most likely."

No - its called intellectual property. The alternative to being able to reverse engineer the wireless section of a chip is to reverse engineer the driver. For companies that provide wireless chips the way in which these chips are structured is held very tightly - it is a highly competitive field and a lot of money is at stake. You often have a hard time getting access to certain parts of the register map even when you work there. And please dont suggest that a company that has sunk millions into developing a chip should be willing to provide the information for free. That's childish.

3.
"
No, the incentive isn't money, the monetary compensation just keeps body and soul together."

I am glad that you are willing to perform your profession for free, except that isn't the definition of a professional - it is the definition of an amateur. All that idiot Stalling did was tell all of us who build software that what we did was valueless. Every cynical business in the country (this one, anyway) will go right on taking advantage of such a golden opportunity - why buy the cow when you get the milk for free.

Free Software Foundation files suit against Cisco for GPL violations

Posted Dec 13, 2008 9:46 UTC (Sat) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link]

> And please dont suggest that a company that has sunk millions into developing a chip should be willing to provide the information for free. That's childish.

Except that wifi chips are not given for free, but sold. So people have already paid for it.

A point of rebuttal

Posted Dec 14, 2008 1:07 UTC (Sun) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (1 responses)

All wireless chip manufacturers insist on this, and have legal opinion to back them up.
Or rather legal muscle. Lawyers will back whoever pays them, and that is as it should.
And remember it is not the same executable, nor does it need to borrow on freeware.
I gather you are referring to "Free software". Please do not mix it up with "freeware", which commonly refers to gratis software.
There are a number of very competent well paid programmers working on the problem, not a bunch of part-timers. And why do they take this approach, you ask?
There is a bigger number of insanely competent outrageously-paid programmers working on the Linux kernel, and they publish their work under the GPL. And why, you ask? Because it is worth it.
And please dont suggest that a company that has sunk millions into developing a chip should be willing to provide the information for free. That's childish.
What we need is that companies just work together on the parts that are common, such as the wireless stack, and concentrate their differentiating efforts on building efficient chips. Everyone wins that way.
I am glad that you are willing to perform your profession for free, except that isn't the definition of a professional - it is the definition of an amateur.
Not exactly. Putting pride before money is a hallmark of the good professional.
All that idiot Stalling did was tell all of us who build software that what we did was valueless.
If you are referring to Stallman please use his proper name, and try to be "polite, respectful, and informative". Stallman made a living at the time selling software, and probably still does. But he believes that software has more value when it is shared than when it is kept proprietary. Nowadays we have several billion-dollar corporations that prove him right.
Every cynical business in the country (this one, anyway) will go right on taking advantage of such a golden opportunity - why buy the cow when you get the milk for free.
A lot of otherwise cynical businesses have not taken advantage of GPL licensed software, but are good players that share their improvements. To perform such blatant violations you have to be cynical and stupid. Luckily the well is not so easy to poison.

A point of rebuttal

Posted Dec 16, 2008 9:55 UTC (Tue) by whacker (guest, #55546) [Link]

> All that idiot Stalling(sic) did was tell all of us who build software that what we did was valueless.

He was right. What you do (make money by restricting the right to copy your software) is indeed worthless. It benefits nobody, including you.

The user is not benefitted because you have imposed artificial restrictions on how the software can be used.

You are not benefitted, because, for a lot of software, when the user pays for software, it is for support, not for the code itself. She needs someone to take responsibility for it. Paying you for your software allows her to hold you accountable for quality and service. Your software could be Free and you will still make exactly the same amount of money from it.

People who do not want to pay you for software will pirate it anyway.


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