True, but how often it happens? [LWN.net]

True, but how often it happens?

Posted Nov 14, 2008 11:28 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252)
In reply to: Virtuals are minor problem by epa
Parent article: Things that go Clang in the night: LLVM 2.4 released (ars technica)

This is not question about "can I do it in theory". This is more like "does it happen in practice". While it's easy to lose track of what happens where in C program it's infinitely easier to do so in C++ with all these RAII, operator overloading and so on.

Now, I'm not saying it's such a bad thing (I like Python, for example, and it's even easier to do there), but that way beyond "unencumbered portable assembly for reusable library building" - that's for sure...

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True, but how often it happens?

Posted Nov 14, 2008 13:04 UTC (Fri) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link] (8 responses)

I don't see why libraries must be built in 'unencumbered portable
assembly'... surely what matters is that they be robust, present a clean
interface, and be fast enough. If you are writing a library to provide
arbitrary precision arithmetic, for example, it would certainly be a big
disadvantage to make the user write xyz_assign(&a, xyz_multiply(b, c))
instead of a = b*c. The same applies for a library providing hash tables:
surely it is much better that the hash table clean up its resources when it
is destroyed. A main design goal of C++ was to provide a good language for
building reusable libraries, a better alternative to C for this task.

I suppose you would call C++ unencumbered, if you care about that, because
you don't pay for anything if you don't use it. The same code for calling
the multiply function or freeing memory would have to be written anyway,
and it doesn't make it any more efficient at runtime to use a more verbose
syntax.

Argh. How is this relevant?

Posted Nov 14, 2008 13:38 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (7 responses)

The whole discussion is kind of pointless.

Please read the whole thread starting with The problem with C++ is that it's neither meat, nor fish. It's not an unencumbered portable assembly for reusable library building, and neither it is a proper high- level language.

Basically the story goes like this: C++ is poor as "unencumbered portable assembly for reusable library building" AND it's poor as high- level language too (compare metaprogramming in C++ and Lisp, for example).

A main design goal of C++ was to provide a good language for building reusable libraries, a better alternative to C for this task.

Yes. And they failed. You can not use STL like you'll use Python - you need to know a lot of details and you can not use it as portable assembler too. Basically resulting language is useless for everyone - but you can try to shoehorn both low-level stuff and high-level stuff in C++. The question is: why not use suitable language for these purposes? C for low-level stuff (much closer to hardware then C++) and Java/Python/Ruby (much safer) for high-level stuff?

C++ is "new PL/I" - the language which must be equally good for all kind of tasks but which is equally bad for all kind of tasks instead...

I suppose you would call C++ unencumbered, if you care about that, because you don't pay for anything if you don't use it.

You do pay for features worth having (exceptions and RTTI) and features which cost you nothing don't buy you much.

The same code for calling the multiply function or freeing memory would have to be written anyway, and it doesn't make it any more efficient at runtime to use a more verbose syntax.

When you see how much code this thing actually needs you'll try to avoid such code. When it's generated by compiler it looks like it's really free where it's not.

Argh. How is this relevant?

Posted Nov 14, 2008 19:50 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (4 responses)

Yeah, it's terrible to have the compiler do boring work for you. After
all, CPU time is so terribly expensive these days.

Compiler do boring work for you? Don't make me laugh.

Posted Nov 15, 2008 12:27 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (3 responses)

Have you actually written something with template metaprogramming? That's constant parade of repetetion, bunch of tricks and unclear semantic. Compiler does not do the boring work for you. It tries to strangle you at every step. The fact is: C++ is not powerful enough to make a lot of stuff easy and it's too far removed from the hardware to use it as "high- level portable assembler". Neither fish nor meat as was said above.

Compiler do boring work for you? Don't make me laugh.

Posted Nov 16, 2008 15:16 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (2 responses)

The 'compiler doing the boring work for you' was a reference to RAII,
obviously. 'Going out of scope firing destructors' being an example of the
compiler doing the boring work for you.

I have no idea why you dislike it: all you've given so far has been
venting.

Compiler do boring work for you? Don't make me laugh.

Posted Nov 16, 2008 19:44 UTC (Sun) by mgb (guest, #3226) [Link] (1 responses)

One can use C++ as "C plus extra type checking". Or one can use one or several or all of the C++ features such as virtuals, templates, and exceptions. C++ is great for abstract programs.

But C++ can be a royal pain when it comes to doing real work. Ever tried to open a pipe and handle it through C++ iostreams? Pipes are not available in Windoze so C++ refuses to admit they exist. You're stuck with compiler-specific extensions that change every other release, hidden in a namespace with three underscores.

C++'s operating system support transcends file cabinets in locked basement cupboards guarded by leopards and landmines.

Compiler do boring work for you? Don't make me laugh.

Posted Nov 16, 2008 22:11 UTC (Sun) by avik (guest, #704) [Link]

C doesn't recognize pipes either. You can't access a pipe using FILE *s using Standard C.

(fdopen() is not Standard C)

Argh. How is this relevant?

Posted Nov 15, 2008 16:44 UTC (Sat) by ikm (guest, #493) [Link] (1 responses)

> Basically resulting language is useless for everyone

You do understand that this statement doesn't reflect the perceived reality, don't you? And to address the rest:

> The whole discussion is kind of pointless.

Totally agreed. Each time C++ is spotted on LWN, it starts all over again. I even start to think that this phenomenon could deserve a dedicated article on its own.

Argh. How is this relevant?

Posted Nov 16, 2008 15:19 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

The language certainly seems to attract some dedicated haters.