VIA releases open source Xorg driver
I am very happy to see this! It's one more step that VIA has been working on to improve and show their support for Free Software and Linux. Please notice that this driver (as opposed to VIA's proprietary binary-only Xorg driver) has no support for 3D, hardware video codec or TV encoder support. Nevertheless, it is a big step ahead."
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VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 29, 2008 21:03 UTC (Fri) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link]
Surely, VIA has the resources to get with the program faster than they are doing. Especially since their chipsets aren't exactly the advanced 3d monsters that NVidia and AMD make.
VIA did have send a representative to the (Linux Foundation?) Collaboration Conference. And he said a curious thing. IIRC, he said that as a Taiwanese company, its hard for them to participate in open source. Now what's that supposed to mean? They certainly don't have any problems, as a Taiwanese company, getting their goods to market, world wide, for people to buy... and then find out don't work with their OS.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 29, 2008 21:08 UTC (Fri) by wblew (subscriber, #39088) [Link]
Based on the lingua franca of the mailing lists, I would assume the answer is: yes
If this is the case, would that not be one barrier?
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 29, 2008 21:55 UTC (Fri) by bmur (guest, #52954) [Link]
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 29, 2008 22:35 UTC (Fri) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link]
No, you don't need to know English to write C. You need to know the meaning of a few keywords that happen to be English words, but that's a far cry from being able to communicate in English.Over the years I've seen a lot of code where the comments, variable names, etc. are chosen from some other language.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 30, 2008 11:38 UTC (Sat) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link]
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 30, 2008 15:02 UTC (Sat) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 30, 2008 19:19 UTC (Sat) by salimma (subscriber, #34460) [Link]
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 31, 2008 2:47 UTC (Sun) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 1, 2008 8:05 UTC (Mon) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]
Regarding English, the distance from being able to read to being able to express yourself is considerable. I haven't been to Taiwan, but in mainland China the percentage of people that can read English is very small.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 31, 2008 20:25 UTC (Sun) by xtifr (guest, #143) [Link]
And, of course, without a knowledge of English, the fact that "stdio" might be short for "standard input/output" will be completely lost on you. (Even with English, this might not be obvious at first.)
Ironically, because the default locale is 8-bit ascii, you'll need to know <em>more</em> English words to write a program that works in another language than you would to write one that works in English. At a minimum, you'll need to learn "locale" and "set". Neither of which, again, are keywords or even parts of keywords. :)
This isn't to say that you <em>can't</em> learn to program in C with only a bare minimum knowledge of English--we've both seen it done. But the bar is still higher than you suggest--"a few keywords" is far from sufficient.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 1, 2008 14:45 UTC (Mon) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link]
ASCII is 7-bit. The default locale is usually asked during the installation. In Fedora, it's en_US.UTF-8.
Non-English-speaking programmers
Posted Sep 4, 2008 5:55 UTC (Thu) by ncm (subscriber, #165) [Link]
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 4, 2008 8:39 UTC (Thu) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link]
You may need to understand what printf, strstr, mutex, heap, CreateNode, while, string, for and a lot of stuff like that means.
But the fact that these are origined in english is almost completely unimportant, a non-programming english-native would not be able to tell what a "heap" or a "mutex" is in this context any better than a non-programming Indian or Norwegian or whatever.
When he -does- learn programming, he also learns the spesific meaning of the most common words, he learns more when he uses libraries etc. But here's the thing; this spesific meaning is so specialised that knowledge of what the word means in everyday english is almost completely irrelevant.
It's -not- much easier to learn what a "heap" is in programming-context if you're a native english-speaker than it is if you know no english at all.
Try asking your grandmother (assuming she is english native, and does no programming) what a "string" or a "heap" is. You'll get an answer, but not one that would help much in understanding a C-program.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 4, 2008 9:29 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
a lot of languages it's still impossible to come up with names in your
native language (C only recently gained support for Unicode identifiers,
for instance), so you're going to have to come up with names in, probably,
English. And that's harder than learning a bunch of names by rote.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 5, 2008 12:14 UTC (Fri) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link]
German, Norwegian, French, Italian and Spanish all have a few extra letters and/or apostrophes or whatever. Nevertheless it's simple to use norwegian (or german, or italian) names for variables, functions and components.
Even if you -do- decide to use english names, that's STILL not equivalent to needing to know the language. You don't need hearing-comprehension (harder than reading-comprehension for many) you don't need grammar. You don't need pronounciation. You don't need comma-rules, capitalization-rules etc etc etc.
Learning a few nouns and a few verbs isn't more than a small part of learning a language.
Knowing english is helpful. It's in no way required.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 29, 2008 21:59 UTC (Fri) by mstefani (guest, #31644) [Link]
The big problem is the culture difference. Sending a patch and getting the typical rough response back would make them loose their face in front of their colleagues.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 29, 2008 22:08 UTC (Fri) by wblew (subscriber, #39088) [Link]
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 29, 2008 22:37 UTC (Fri) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link]
Which is why VIA was wise to hire Harald Welte to help with the communication and getting the code merged. Other companies would be wise to do the same (hire experienced open source people to help bridge the cultural gap).
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 30, 2008 5:51 UTC (Sat) by nhippi (guest, #34640) [Link]
As another anecdote, I was planning to buy a Linux-based STB (dbox2), and turned out the community spoke and documented everything only in german. Eventually I managed to decipher enough from the forums that dbox2 was missing a feature I needed, but it was quite enlightening experience.
With the for example recent translation of kernel docs to Chinese, I presume the trend is only going to continue, creating more and more code and documentation that is not available in english (unless someone translates it first).
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 30, 2008 6:47 UTC (Sat) by laf0rge (subscriber, #6469) [Link]
so please don't compare the spanish/english situation to a chinese/english situation.
much more difficult is the culture. European or in general 'western' culture is fundemantally different in so many ways. And you cannot really understand a different language without understanding a bit of the culture, too.
I'm not just referring to actual 'culture of the people' but also corporate and industry culture.
Chinese <> English/Western culture differences
Posted Aug 30, 2008 13:51 UTC (Sat) by Duncan (guest, #6647) [Link]
but nothing eastern, so it has always intrigued me.
Consider just one thing by itself, how characters translate into words
and what assumptions one makes about the world based on that from a very
early age, as they learn to read, etc. I can't help but think that were
I to read/write a language where a character was a word and a word was a
character, I'd likely have a very different viewpoint on the world and
how it worked and what made it tick, based on that alone. Not wrong,
just very very different. Certainly, logic is logic, but one's
assumptions and axioms would surely be very different if one were used to
thinking of individual characters as having the meaning of words, and
perhaps extending that to one's assumptions of how the world in general
worked.
So yes, I can certainly see how culture and world-view would
be /entirely/ different, and that it could and would seriously affect
one's ability to participate in the to this point mostly western FLOSS
community across a cultural gap of that degree.
Hiring Harald Welte as a liaison will certainly benefit both Via and the
FLOSS community as each side learns to work better with the other,
without causing or taking unnecessary offense, while learning to see
things from the vantage point of an entirely different world-view.
That said, as a purely practical matter, until they started making this
very serious effort, I certainly didn't feel obligated to buy Via, any
more than I felt obligated to buy MSI when I visited their site
researching mobos, and found everything, from the docs to the BIOS flash
packages, in MS executable, probably self-extracting-executable-zip,
format. (Yes, I /did/ write them an email, telling them exactly why they
were getting crossed off my list in terms of further consideration.) Via
could do its thing and I could do mine, and if they didn't make it easy
to do mine, well, there were other products to buy. Simple as that.
But I'm glad that's changing as it's nice to have choices! =:^)
Duncan
Chinese <> English/Western culture differences
Posted Aug 30, 2008 21:11 UTC (Sat) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]
When importing words from other languages to Chinese a phonetic transliteration is often used, where the characters are chosen based on how they sound, rather than what they mean. The beverage "Coca-cola" is represented 可口可乐. Visually this could also be a short phrase, but no literate Chinese person would make that mistake.
[Grr, LWN previews seem to be broken for Unicode input, the above is U+53EF U+53E3 U+53EF U+4E50]
* And the logograms are themselves often made up of several components, which were originally, thousands of years ago, pictures directly representing ideas or objects.
Documentation as (self-extracting) .exe files?
Posted Aug 31, 2008 1:58 UTC (Sun) by vonbrand (guest, #4458) [Link]
I've come across a few of those, and just out of boredom once I tried unzip(1) on them... and it unpacked the contents fine.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 31, 2008 7:51 UTC (Sun) by quotemstr (subscriber, #45331) [Link]
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 31, 2008 11:40 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
hope of understanding anything in Russian or Eastern European languages
where the conventional writing system is Cyrillic, because similar though
Cyrillic is to the Latin alphabet it's not similar enough to be readable.
(Not to me, at least.)
(Of course, if I actually cared about this I suppose I could always learn
Cyrillic, but I'm English so it's traditional that I be monoglottal
imperialist scum.)
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 31, 2008 15:10 UTC (Sun) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link]
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 31, 2008 19:17 UTC (Sun) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link]
Test case for your statement: Turkish. Written in a Latin script. Language is completely different from anything European.
From anything? Actually Finnish (my native language), Sami, Estonian, Hungarian, Basque, and probably some others I forgot are also European languages (i.e. they are natively spoken in Europe), but as different from the Indo-European languages as Turkish is.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 1, 2008 0:51 UTC (Mon) by quotemstr (subscriber, #45331) [Link]
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 1, 2008 12:24 UTC (Mon) by liljencrantz (guest, #28458) [Link]
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 31, 2008 15:02 UTC (Sun) by nhippi (guest, #34640) [Link]
That was most certainly not my intention. I was just sharing my thoughts (as answer to the original poster), that it seems possible (but certainly no easy) these days to participate in FLOSS community without knowing English.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 1, 2008 15:44 UTC (Mon) by hmh (subscriber, #3838) [Link]
But there is little we can do about it. Localized development efforts (i.e. those that are not ready to work internationally) in FOSS usually either die quickly, or cannot be reached at all by non-locals.
If you do any sort of FOSS development, you HAVE to be able to communicate in english if you want your project to succeed (or to work with the vast majority of the FOSS communities and projects out there), and that's the beginning and end of it.
For users, things are less strict, but the moment you want to become an advanced user and that starts requiring access to in-depth documentation and other advanced users, chances are you will need to be able to communicate in english for most projects/applications.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Aug 30, 2008 0:08 UTC (Sat) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link]
new driver? why? openchrome!
Posted Aug 30, 2008 16:17 UTC (Sat) by undefined (subscriber, #40876) [Link]
hopefully harald told via "the first thing you need to know about free & open source software, after making the development process transparent, is building a community". but you don't build a community by apparently ignoring existing attempts to support your hardware (openchrome & unichrome).
maybe they extended an invitation to the openchrome developers, but if so, then i haven't heard about it (while loosely following openchrome development).
new driver? why? openchrome!
Posted Aug 30, 2008 19:27 UTC (Sat) by wtogami (subscriber, #32325) [Link]
Whatever happens, VIA needs to develop the driver in the open perhaps in X.org git repositories like all the other drivers.
http://wtogami.livejournal.com/21926.html
http://www.x.org/wiki/AMDGeodeDriver
December 2007 AMD's geode driver was in similar bad shape, with no community coordination or public mailing list of its own. I kicked AMD, and Jordan Crouse moved their previously internal AMD mailing list to public at X.org, and we together wrote all information plus the roadmap on an X.org wiki page. VIA must take steps like this to fully engage with the community, or they will never compete with the competition and achieve "Just Working" drivers shipped in all Linux distributions by default.
new driver? why? openchrome!
Posted Aug 31, 2008 2:19 UTC (Sun) by laf0rge (subscriber, #6469) [Link]
So this should explain that this is not "a new driver" but actually something that has been around for many years.
And openly publishing the source of this driver is obviously just the first step. Now all involved parties can look at everyone's source base, and can start a discussion on how to proceed from here.
I would rather not see VIA trying to build a new community around that driver, since that would further fragment the various groups working on VIA graphics support.
new driver? why? openchrome!
Posted Aug 31, 2008 3:46 UTC (Sun) by wtogami (subscriber, #32325) [Link]
> first step. Now all involved parties can look at everyone's source
> base, and can start a discussion on how to proceed from here.
> I would rather not see VIA trying to build a new community around
> that driver, since that would further fragment the various groups
> working on VIA graphics support.
These comments are confusing. Does this mean the goal is NOT to create a single centralized and openly developed driver project? Please see my previous comment in this thread.
new driver? why? openchrome!
Posted Aug 31, 2008 8:10 UTC (Sun) by laf0rge (subscriber, #6469) [Link]
I was merely saying that I would not think it was good to create a new, separate development community around this newly-opensource driver, but rather see integration with the existing open source community around VIA's graphics products.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver: Forking the english language documentation
Posted Sep 1, 2008 4:29 UTC (Mon) by bdagit (guest, #53691) [Link]
the openness to grant someone the right to communicate in a foreign language in your midst, which is a given, is exploited if the speaker only does that to insure exclusivity and privacy, and makes no effort to share the 'source code' of their language. free learning materials for that language, and some kind of free clearinghouse for practice partners are appropriate. i honestly doubt that 2 countries are friends or even on speaking terms if there is no agreement to mutually establish the exchange of free language-learning materials.
when you choose your desktop locale, you should be offered free language-training materials with the localization. that is free speech and respect for other languages.
let me note that programs like kvoctrain and kwordquiz are capable of helping to build foreign language vocabulary skills. however, i have not found a useful trove of vocabulary files except for a few languages.
in addition, i would like to see tons more useful parallel texts online.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver: Forking the english language documentation
Posted Sep 1, 2008 5:25 UTC (Mon) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link]
VIA releases open source Xorg driver: Forking the english language documentation
Posted Sep 1, 2008 6:16 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
rights over their languages, generally so they can forbid outsiders from
speaking it or try to control what's said in it.
None of these claims have been tested in court, all have been met with
hilarity from everyone I know of who's heard of them, and the general
opinion of such attempts is that they're doomed to failure. (It'd have no
chance of success with major languages, of course. The closest they get is
the Academie Francaise...)
VIA releases open source Xorg driver: Forking the english language documentation
Posted Sep 3, 2008 22:09 UTC (Wed) by bdagit (guest, #53691) [Link]
foreign languages exist because of geography and politics and taste. the geography and politics are why they are exclusive. i was only saying that foreign languages that cost more than just the minimum to learn with self-study are analogous to expensive proprietary software versus the cost of burning a cdrom with free software. once usable learning materials are available freely and openly, nobody will have to pay anything more than the time and work to learn the language.
the freedom in linux and the notion of source code as protected free speech is where this analogy springs from. as of now, if there are no gpl'd foreign language instructional materials which at least cover up to the foreign language comments in the code, such comments are effectively like free proprietary binary snippets tainting the gpl.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver: Forking the english language documentation
Posted Sep 1, 2008 16:00 UTC (Mon) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]
There's plenty of freely available learning material out there.
VIA releases open source Xorg driver: Forking the english language documentation
Posted Sep 5, 2008 12:15 UTC (Fri) by Oddscurity (guest, #46851) [Link]
Indeed... hilarity ensues?
VIA releases open source Xorg driver: Forking the english language documentation
Posted Sep 11, 2008 4:31 UTC (Thu) by bdagit (guest, #53691) [Link]
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 1, 2008 7:32 UTC (Mon) by petegn (guest, #847) [Link]
VIA releases open source Xorg driver
Posted Sep 1, 2008 12:27 UTC (Mon) by liljencrantz (guest, #28458) [Link]
