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IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

InformationWeek covers the LinuxWorld keynote by IBM's Bob Sutor. "Bob Sutor, VP of open source and standards at IBM, told attendees of the LinuxWorld Conference in San Francisco, that what the open source community needs to make Linux popular as a desktop OS used by consumers and businesses are "some really good graphic designers." "Stop copying 2001 Windows. That's not where the usability action is," Sutor said during his afternoon keynote."

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IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 7, 2008 19:04 UTC (Thu) by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164) [Link] (9 responses)

He should have a look at KDE 4 and what's planned... I've been complaining
about the linux desktop (both of them) chasing what essentially was Windows
95, but there is vision on the desktop these days...

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 7, 2008 23:11 UTC (Thu) by nitrofurano (guest, #53306) [Link] (8 responses)

KDE4? if you could say KDE1 i would believe it, but KDE4?
My hope is only if Nokia (since they bought QT?) could clean up all KDE development, and get a
cleaner restart from KDE1 again - i really think it's deeply needed. KDE is really needed to
be kept small and simple, and since KDE2 it became completelly chaotic... and KDE4 became
painful.
I'm much more into Gnome, which follows a more solid human interface guideline. 

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 8, 2008 0:10 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (3 responses)

A *lot* of people switched from GNOME to KDE when GNOME 2 came along, 
because it was simplified to such a degree that it could no longer be made 
to work the way we worked: we had to adapt to *it* rather than vice versa.

And, frankly, if I wanted a system that worked like that I'd use Windows.

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 8, 2008 0:48 UTC (Fri) by qg6te2 (guest, #52587) [Link] (2 responses)

IMHO, it seems both desktops can't get it right. Gnome is oversimplified, while the options in KDE are tripping over themselves. A stab in the right direction might be to have "Advanced" tab(s) in both Gnome and KDE. Whether this is an "advanced config" on/off switch that is global or local to a particular application is another matter. Gnome folks may point out that this introduces "unnecessary complexity" and "more code paths to check". However, going too sparse also reduces usability -- e.g. digging through gconf-editor to find and enable an option (which are often not well described) can be rather painful.

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 9, 2008 19:46 UTC (Sat) by xtifr (guest, #143) [Link] (1 responses)

While I don't actually object to the idea of an "advanced" tab, I neither want nor need all
the settings in my face at all times.  One of the things I like about FVWM is that it's "set
and forget".  On those rare occasions (once every few years) when I actually want to change a
setting, I fire up my text editor.  The rest of the time, the settings are "out of sight, out
of mind", which is how I like it.  If it's something you only use every few years, what's the
point of even an "advanced settings" tab cluttering up the screen?  It's just one more random
thing distracting you from actually getting some work done.

While I'm not a fan of either Gnome or KDE, I find Gnome's approach far more promising.  Gnome
seems like something that could be turned into a decent desktop environment with a bit of
work; KDE doesn't.

So I don't think that "digging through gconf-editor to find and enable an option" is a bad
thing.  I think it's ideal, as long as those options are things I don't want to muck with all
the time, which, for the most part, they seem to be, from what I've seen.  Granted, the system
needs better documentation (unlike FVWM, which is extensively documented), but that's a common
complaint for FLOSS systems.

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 21, 2008 9:14 UTC (Thu) by Pocharngo (subscriber, #11839) [Link]

"On those rare occasions (once every few years) when I actually want to change a
setting, I fire up my text editor.  The rest of the time, the settings are "out of sight, out
of mind", which is how I like it.  If it's something you only use every few years, what's the
point of even an "advanced settings" tab cluttering up the screen?  It's just one more random
thing distracting you from actually getting some work done."

I disagree. I am afraid you overestimate many of us Linux newbies/ex-Windows converts. Most of
us have no idea of how to edit a configuration file, particularly if we do not have a clear
idea of what is possible to achieve. Even with good documentation files/Help systems, this
will be too much for most people with my background. With an "Advanced" button, at least we
can experiment without too much hassle. Or get an idea of what to ask the resident geek about.
:-)

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 8, 2008 1:37 UTC (Fri) by Sutoka (guest, #43890) [Link] (1 responses)

Hilarious. KDE 4 is both overly complex and far too simple at the same time. Maybe, just
maybe, usability is more complex than simply gutting all the features.

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 8, 2008 7:34 UTC (Fri) by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164) [Link]

You're absolutely right. Doing usability by removing features (or not
writing them, due to lack of resources, then claiming "it's usability") is
a weak and ineffective strategy. It just leaves you with a less capable
system. You might make it easier to learn, but you'll also ensure the loss
of efficiency.

And you're right in claiming KDE 4.x right now does both things wrong: in
some areas we rewrote so much, we have too few features. In other area's,
we're not ready doing usability work and still have that overly-complex
KDE-3 interface.

But we're working on it. There are area's where we're getting there: not
too empty, not too complex, but powerful AND usable. It's what we're aiming
for, and we're doing it. That was what I meant with my first post - we're
aiming for something much more appealing than KDE 3 (too many features) or
Gnome (too dumbed down).

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 8, 2008 7:07 UTC (Fri) by aleXXX (subscriber, #2742) [Link] (1 responses)

There is just so much wrong with your email.

* Nokia can't clean up anything in KDE development, since KDE is run by a 
free community

* is there actually something to clean up ?

* get a cleaner restart - well, we just had a very clean restart

* ... from KDE1 - this is just ridiculous. KDE 1 - nice back then, but 
quite monolithic, no unicode, no plugins, no Mac or Windows support - 
what should somebody do with this ?

* it became chaotic - I don't see anything chaotic

* KDE4 became painful - KDE4 is in the process of becoming ready for 
everyday use. 4.0 may have been painful, due to the "clean restart" you 
want and which we had.

Alex

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 8, 2008 8:22 UTC (Fri) by k3ninho (subscriber, #50375) [Link]

I suspect you have been trolled.  On LWN!

k3n. made with -fNOLULZ.

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 8, 2008 3:46 UTC (Fri) by jdave23 (guest, #27160) [Link] (5 responses)

The article left me confused, as though written by someone who didn't quite understand what
they were hearing.  Stop copying Windows?  Outside of the standard WIMP concept the various
desktop environments are all over the map!

I've enjoyed reading Bob Sutor's blog and he seems like a decent guy, but should anyone from
IBM talk about interface design?  I have to look at a Notes client five days a week and it
doesn't exactly thrill me.

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 8, 2008 16:38 UTC (Fri) by N0NB (guest, #3407) [Link] (3 responses)

Absolutely.  Before someone from IBM begins to lecture us on usability, I want proof that he
has personally taken the Notes UI designers out back and had them shot.  I've had to use that
poor excuse for an email program for over 13 years at work.  I've rambled on about it in the
past, but it really seems to be a "for PHBs by PHBs" type of program.  More recent versions
are a case study in bloat for bloat's sake.

Like "quality" (anyone who has read Zen, and Art of Motorcycle Maintenance will understand),
"usability" is a nebulous concept.  What I find easy to use may be an enigma to someone else
and vice versa.

What annoys and bothers me is when people start bleating that the Free Desktop must sacrifice
its range of choice in the name of "usability".  A very poorly thought out strategy, IMO.  A
toolbox with only one tool in it isn't terribly useful for a variety of situations.

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 9, 2008 5:07 UTC (Sat) by Sutoka (guest, #43890) [Link]

> What I find easy to use may be an enigma to someone else and vice versa.

Exactly! OS X is frequently touted as being awesomely usable, but I find it incredibly
frustrating for the very same reasons. There isn't a single magic interface that everyone will
find usable for what they're trying to do.

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 10, 2008 14:03 UTC (Sun) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] (1 responses)

Yes, because of course everyone at IBM has responsibility for the Notes UI, and IBM has never
produced any other UIs, at all, ever, in the 50 or so years it's been writing software...

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 11, 2008 5:54 UTC (Mon) by jzbiciak (guest, #5246) [Link]

Nor have they ever acquired software from the outside and carried it forward. 

(Pssst... Lotus Notes once came from a company named Lotus.)

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 9, 2008 15:54 UTC (Sat) by muwlgr (guest, #35359) [Link]

Just remember, Notes were from Lotus, and Lotus were quite a pioneers in their era, e.g. with
their Lotus123 software. Mitch Kapor is from Lotus, he develops "Chandler" PIM now.

Until, of course, IBM bought them, after which the UIs had been kept frozen in 80s style and
this seems not going to change :>

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 8, 2008 4:03 UTC (Fri) by csawtell (guest, #986) [Link] (5 responses)

If Mr. Sutor wants a better pictorial user interface than any that's currently available, I
wonder if he might care to start a community oriented WinterThink, followed by a sponsored
CodingSummer.

For me, I'd suggest that he contemplate some of the ideas in the Sugar interface designed for
and by the OLPC folks. IMHO it really is the work of a team of geniuses. Some of the
implementation features are not really solid yet, but the thoughts and ideas behind them are
really brilliant.

The denigrators of Sugar seem to  have been corrupted into thinking that 'Start at the bottom
left button' is the one and only way. They are sorely mistaken.


IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 8, 2008 5:26 UTC (Fri) by janpla (guest, #11093) [Link] (4 responses)

I don't know the Sugar interface - but I'd suggest looking at the old OS/2 Warp 3 for some
fairly radical ideas. It took me some getting used to, but I really liked it, once I got the
idea.

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 8, 2008 6:55 UTC (Fri) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link] (3 responses)

I have had a look at it at

http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/os2warp3

and I have to say that I'm completely unimpressed. What's great with it? It just looks like a
beta of Windows 3.0.

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 8, 2008 13:14 UTC (Fri) by markhb (guest, #1003) [Link] (1 responses)

It may look that way (and actually, Warp 4 had a better-looking screen), but it certainly didn't work that way. The whole thing was (is, if you want to look at eComStation) object-oriented, to the extent that, if you wanted to create a document on the desktop, you created one from a template (i.e., instantiated an object). WP's article on the Workplace Shell is here; read about the System Object Model as well. Plus, one neat UI trick that IBM patented and has never let go of: you could hold down your mouse button and drag in an irregular path through a folder window and only those icons you touched would be selected (as opposed to the rectangular-frame lasso that the others have).

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 9, 2008 1:25 UTC (Sat) by brouhaha (subscriber, #1698) [Link]

if you wanted to create a document on the desktop, you created one from a template (i.e., instantiated an object)
Another example of how everyone is actually following Apple's lead. That's exactly how the Lisa desktop worked. Xerox invented the GUI desktop, but almost all the innovation in it since 1983 has come from Apple, not Microsoft or IBM.

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 8, 2008 14:05 UTC (Fri) by dkite (guest, #4577) [Link]

Windows 95 copied many ideas from OS/2. (yes, that is the vintage).

The shell had an object model whose biggest problem wasn't the idea, but the
implementation. The development process was quasi impossible and the
interfaces were undocumented. The object model was separated from the
underlying file system, which created problems with synchronisation.

There were some very neat ideas I've yet to see implemented elsewhere. But
the object model idea has been copied almost everywhere.

Derek


IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 8, 2008 15:03 UTC (Fri) by mosfet (guest, #45339) [Link] (2 responses)

From a usability standpoint I really like OS X Leopard. It seems to have the right balance
between simplicity and complexity for most tasks. Too bad it takes an evil corporation with a
near mad leader to enforce usability.



IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 9, 2008 15:57 UTC (Sat) by dkite (guest, #4577) [Link] (1 responses)

Heh. I think you have described the problem succinctly.

Usability comes from control.

Free software abhors control.

When free software projects attempt to impose control, the end result is the
worst of both worlds.

Derek

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 9, 2008 19:38 UTC (Sat) by Sutoka (guest, #43890) [Link]

You're assuming OS X is actually usable. It isn't. It's simply popular because it's different
(without being too different).

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 8, 2008 16:42 UTC (Fri) by lieb (guest, #42749) [Link] (2 responses)

I've listened to and sometimes engaged in the UI debate for years starting from before there
was a G prepended.  For the most part, the talking points are rubbish.  Consider the car.  If
you go US<->UK, the whole UI is flipped left for right.  People manage to get around
reasonably well and not kill anybody.  Also, the little details between a Toyota interior and
a VW | Ford are not all that different, really.  People do just fine.  Otherwise the whole
international rent-a-car industry would collapse.  At some point it becomes, "We're a
{VW|Chevy|Honda} family.", a matter of taste.  I use Fedora with it's mix of KDE and Gnome and
my family does just fine.  I think the real thing to take away from his talk is the bigger
picture, namely the Windows desktop is Office (only connected to office things), Outlook, and
the few other client/server apps.  We can do better like better web integration, taking
advantage of OO's open formats to integrate with IT systems, e.g. report templates in one
filled out in the other... In other words, expand the horizon beyond M$'s product marketing
wish list which is same old stuff with more buttons.

Then again, I never could understand why anyone would want a Chrysler.  I've seen better
looking creatures in tide pool.

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 11, 2008 2:38 UTC (Mon) by Sutoka (guest, #43890) [Link]

The main thing about cars is they're mostly homogeneous. And for the non-superficial
differences (say, the type of transmission) people often prefer one way over the other for
often the same reason as other people prefer is the opposite way.

Don't forget that cars also aren't something that people jump into (the driver seat) without
any training (like most everyone has done with computers); I'm not sure about all countries,
but it's often illegal to drive a car without taking a test that generally covers the normal
interface for the car (as well as using the interface).

IMO, cars make a better example of a (mostly) homogeneous interface than being an intuitive
interface.

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 14, 2008 12:44 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link]

> If you go US<->UK, the whole UI is flipped left for right.  People manage to get around
reasonably well and not kill anybody.

A whole load of people from the UK get themselves and others killed on everyone else's roads
every year, though, from forgetting which side they're supposed to be driving on... the car's
UI is the least of the problems.

In any case, a car's UI is a lot simpler than a computer's UI - hell, most car stereos are
more complex than the cars they're in - and it also provides the kind of immediate physical
feedback that people are still missing on computers; when you turn, you can see and feel how
much you're turning in real time.

IBM To Linux Desktop Developers: 'Stop Copying Windows' (InformationWeek)

Posted Aug 10, 2008 16:15 UTC (Sun) by josh_stern (guest, #4868) [Link] (2 responses)


Without intending any disrespect to the various participants in this discussion, the whole
thread strikes me as incredibly primitive.   People are arguing about good and bad software
without using any concrete definitions, any objective criteria, or even any good examples of
what they are talking about and what the supposed problems are.   Against that context,
discussion is just an extended venting of subjective opinion.   We might as well argue about
who recorded "the best song".

Science and engineering of a subject both have to start somewhere.  It would be better to
start with some simple, quantifiable models of the relevant phenomena even if they are
inadequate, because then they can be precisely debated and improved.    For example, one can
make a list of, say, the 100 most important/common tasks a desktop user should be able to
accomplish, list for each task the minimum number of interface gestures they need to use to
accomplish this task, and the minimum number of propositions they need to learn in order to
know how to complete the task with the minimum number of gestures - now the functional
complexity of the interface is "measured" as the union of those propositions.   Do you think
that model is bad?  Fine, propose a better concrete model and then someone else would argue
for an improvement over that, etc.   At least that would be the beginning of engineering
instead of the endless and completely unproductive venting of raw opinion about "usability".



It'll never work

Posted Aug 10, 2008 19:37 UTC (Sun) by krishna (guest, #24080) [Link] (1 responses)

I take issue with your model :-)     
     
Graham Nelson, who developed Inform 7, described why the dev process     
wasn't open to everybody:     
      
<quote>Had Inform 7 been developed in open source, I am fairly sure it      
would now be an elaborated version of the superficial prototype, and that      
it would be much the poorer. </quote>     
     
Someone who puts out the first model will have people elaborating on the     
prototype, not necessarily refining or disrupting the model to produce a     
new one.  I think this is because developers don't have respect for what    
it takes to produce these models, and will complain about not being able    
to write code against a continuously changing model such as (dare I say    
it) the Linux Kernel ABI, to provide an even more concrete example.    
    
Frankly, I think there should be a universally accepted handful of books    
about UI design that developers point new developers towards; just 
validating the ideas of measuring number of clicks, time-to-task, facts 
about human visual and motor processing would be valuable.  These are 
something I'll bet very few developers get encouragement from the 
community as something valuable to learn.  
  
And my two cents about existing UIs; I really like what KDE has done in  
centralizing keyboard shorcuts, mime-typing, etc into the control panel   
in such a way that they can be accessed across all applications, probably  
even non-kde ones.  With KDE 3, they provided a slider bar to match level  
of UI effects to the power of your computer; AFAIK, to do this in Vista  
you need to buy a whole different version of the software or start hacking  
the registry.  So in that regard, KDE itself is a set of good models that  
can be complained about or improved.  So yeah, it could work :-) 

It'll never work

Posted Aug 11, 2008 1:46 UTC (Mon) by josh_stern (guest, #4868) [Link]


I think you misunderstood the sense of model I was using.  I wasn't talking about "model code"
- e.g. a prototype.   I was talking about a theory of what it means for one interface to have
better usability than another.  Instead of Person A saying "I like GUI1 better" and Person B
saying "I like GUI2 better" we should have Engineer E saying "I'm going to use Model 1 to
define and measure the usability of GUI1 and GUI2 in order to quantify which one is better"
and then Engineer F can come along and say, "No we should use Model 2 to do that".



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