Will the real Firebird please stand up? [LWN.net]

One of the many changes called for in the new Mozilla roadmap was a new emphasis on the Phoenix browser - and a new name. The Phoenix name, it seems, has a number of trademark problems. So the Mozilla project, after some thought, came up with a new name for its to-be flagship browser: Firebird.

There's only one problem: the Firebird relational database project has been using that name since 2000. This project is working on a fork of the InterBase code; it just announced the availability of the first Firebird 1.5 release candidate. The Firebird developers are, needless to say, less than impressed with Phoenix's new name.

The response from the Mozilla project, to the extent that there has been one, seems to be that the two projects exist in different spaces, so there is no naming conflict. The fact that "Firebird" is the name of an automobile made by Pontiac is not a concern; a relational database with that name is no more of a problem. Mozilla and its corporate sponsor may have a defensible argument with regard to trademark law, but this is clearly not a good way to treat other members of the free software community. The Firebird name is not yet established - in the browser domain, anyway. The Mozilla project should pick a new one now, when it is still easy.

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Lame, lame, lame

Posted Apr 17, 2003 2:53 UTC (Thu) by yodermk (subscriber, #3803) [Link] (1 responses)

The Mozilla guys took the moral low road on this one. I expected better from them. Now they claim that it is too late to even consider a change, because it would mean running it through AOL legal again.

Well, if they don't change it, this is going to be flamewar fodder for YEARS. You heard it here first. We have better things to fight about. There's no question the Mozilla guys should admit they screwed the pooch and change the name, before any more damage is done.

Lame, lame, lame

Posted Apr 17, 2003 3:09 UTC (Thu) by komarek (guest, #7295) [Link]

While it may not be the right outcome, I predict there won't be much of a public flamewar. We don't hear much about Interbase (or Firebird, the database, now), so I expect not enough people will notice the conflict or sympathize. That said, the Firebird database folks could use this as a PR opportunity, and make things even more ugly than they need to be.

-Paul Komarek

Will the real Firebird please stand up?

Posted Apr 17, 2003 4:34 UTC (Thu) by cpeterso (guest, #305) [Link] (2 responses)

So Name #1 "Phoenix" is already in use. Then Name #2 "Firebird" is already in use. If Phoenix is the Mozilla team's new browser direction, why not make Phoenix's new name "Mozilla"?

Will the real Firebird please stand up?

Posted Apr 17, 2003 5:02 UTC (Thu) by proski (guest, #104) [Link] (1 responses)

Actually, I expected exactly that in the days before they announced the new name. I'm very disappointed by their choice.

Will the real Firebird please stand up?

Posted Apr 17, 2003 15:24 UTC (Thu) by Baylink (guest, #755) [Link]

What? Phoenix/Firebird won't retrieve pages from Google?

:-)

To quote Chris Rock: "What kinda ignorant shit is that?"

Will the real Firebird please stand up?

Posted Apr 17, 2003 7:09 UTC (Thu) by ctg (guest, #3459) [Link]

I don't expect to have a Pontiac installed on my computer. But I do expect to have both a web browser and a DBMS installed on my computer(s).

What will the installed "package" be called?

If I say to someone "quick, get those security to updates to firebird installed", what will the response be?

Maybe they should have called it "Linux". You'll never get a kernel confused with anything else ;-).

The Mozilla Firebird browser

Posted Apr 17, 2003 10:28 UTC (Thu) by nan (guest, #710) [Link] (3 responses)

The Mozilla Project has made a change on their roadmap that will take them to keep two browsers for some time. One of them will eventually take over. It's original name was Phoenix. The other one (Mozilla - the suite) might not necesarilly be abandoned. And so a need to differenciate between these two browsers exists.
(http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=3082&message=69#69)

The original name given to the single browser app, Phoenix, had problems. Phoenix, the BIOS company, also had a browser. Mozilla Project had to change the name of the Phoenix browser.

Just like the Apache Project, the Mozilla Project does not plan to get rid in any way of the Mozilla name while splitting the main app into smaller apps. It already has recognition and no legal problems that are known of. Moving forward, the Mozilla Project will give names to its subprojects. So Phoenix will/has become the Mozilla Firebird browser and the email app that was know as Minotaur is now the Mozilla Thunderbird email client. The suite that everyone has known until know will keep the Mozilla name. This might change in the future when the development of the suite is abandoned, unless the community supports its maintenance.

"There's only one problem: the Firebird relational database project has been using that name since 2000"

There are five Free Source projects with the Firebird name. The Firebird database was not the first one to use the name. If nothing else these news have brought attention to the FirebirdSQL Foundation and its projects.

The Mozilla Firebird browser

Posted Apr 17, 2003 15:13 UTC (Thu) by mguenther (guest, #5609) [Link] (2 responses)

Calling my new micro-brewery product "Coca-cola Beer" will undoubtedly bring attention to the original Coca-cola, but that does not give me any ethical or legal grounds to do so. The Mozilla developers would be up in arms if Microsoft renamed .NET to Mozilla, despite the possible publicity, so I find the behaviour of the Moz dev team in this instance very hypocritical. Regardless of whether they can legally get away with calling it Firebird (or Mozilla Firebird), it is rude to the existing project(s), especially when avoiding a conflict requires almost no effort on their part. The only reason I can see for continuing with this course of action is laziness or hubris, neither of which are desirable qualities for a community-built project.

P.S.: Searching freshmeat and google for software projects named Firebird only turns up the Interbase DB, I am curious to know what the other four projects are.

The Mozilla Firebird browser

Posted Apr 17, 2003 17:04 UTC (Thu) by cpeterso (guest, #305) [Link]

Maybe the Firebird database project should change its name to "Mozilla"?

The Mozilla Firebird browser

Posted Apr 17, 2003 22:22 UTC (Thu) by nan (guest, #710) [Link]

From a post by Asa in Mozillazine (http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=3075&message=104#104)

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Re: Protecting Mozilla's Open Source Cred...
submitted by asa (profile)
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 01:19:31 AM
Reply to this message
What about the "real" Firebird BBS open source project that's been around since at least '99? What about the very "real" Firebird Software Ltd.? What about the "real" Firebird Mortgage Application Software? What about the "real" Firebird NTP client? These are all real software projects with real products. There are lots of Firebird software projects that predate both Mozilla and the database project. What there aren't are other Web browsers called Firebird and other database servers called Firebird. Mozilla isn't a database server and you all aren't a BBS software package, and NTP client, financial software or a video game.

As far as other distros shipping Mozilla-based products, I suspect most of them will continue to call the browser they ship "Mozilla".

--Asa

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"Firebird" is a bad choice as name.

Posted Apr 18, 2003 23:47 UTC (Fri) by erich (guest, #7127) [Link]

Why don't they just use the old name "Navigator" - that name fits better.
"Firebird" sound like a kid's program to me. Maybe a shooter game. And it definitely has a touch of a wannabe-marketing-name... "The new nimbus 2000" could have a successor "the new nimbus firebird" (for those harry potter fans, that sounds plausible, doesn't it?)
Even as mozilla has "risen from it's ashes" that picture is lost with the name of Phoenix - and phoenix isn't mozilla browser... so it's only partially correct anyway.
But the name is a bad choice for a maybe-corporate use browser.

Same with Epiphany

Posted Apr 21, 2003 13:19 UTC (Mon) by leandro (guest, #1460) [Link]

Debian's Epiphany browser package is called epiphany-browser because there was already another one by the same name...

Alternatives

Posted Apr 22, 2003 0:32 UTC (Tue) by roelofs (guest, #2599) [Link] (1 responses)

How about "Flaming Chicken" instead? Or "Roast Turkey"? Or "Mongolian Barbecue"? It's not like the burning-bird motif is difficult to work with...

Or one could get really obscure and work Army of Darkness in there somehow (lead character: "Ash" :-) )

Heck, even "MozPhoenix" or "MoPhoenix" would work.

Alternatives

Posted Apr 24, 2003 15:54 UTC (Thu) by 0rangutan (guest, #10869) [Link]

Why to give such a good browser so ridiculous new name? Well, maybe serious Phoenix/Mozilla users are now gradually encouraged to move to use the Netscape browser instead?

But speaking of simple and better alternatives: There are several other ways to write Phoenix in various languages, like Fénix or Phoinix. Why not choose, for example, Fenix, and so people could even pronounce the name just like before?

Or - just as another simple possibility - why not pick some other bird name? Firebird/Phoenix browser is supposed to fast, lightweight, smart etc. There are dozens of real and imaginary birds that are supposed to have such characteristics, but don't have so childish sounding names...