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The GPL wins in Germany - again

Harald Welte has posted an update on the GPL-compliance case hearing held on May 8. In the end, Skype dropped all of its arguments and gave up its appeal. "This means that the previous court decision is legally binding to Skype, and we have successfully won what has probably been the most lengthy and time consuming case so far."

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The GPL wins in Germany - again

Posted May 8, 2008 20:32 UTC (Thu) by hingo (guest, #14792) [Link] (14 responses)

Skype, Pirate Bay... both come from Sweden.

Seriously though, I'm disappointed to see Skype acting so badly. I mean, they never were Open Source or open in any way, but illegally using someone elses code and then actively defending it in court... At least most other companies targeted by gpl-violations.org have at some point had the sense to step down and negotiate an agreemen. But Skype... this is not far from SCO.

Skype vs. SCO

Posted May 8, 2008 20:40 UTC (Thu) by dwheeler (guest, #1216) [Link] (6 responses)

The Skype case is reprehensible. But at least the courts acted rather swiftly, Skype gave up their hopeless case quickly, and Skype will stay in business.

The SCO case has been dragging on for many years, it's still not resolved, and it's bankrupted an entire company (SCO).

Does that show that SCO is stupider? Or that the U.S. courts are a great example of "justice delayed is justice denied"? I leave that decision to you.

Skype vs. SCO

Posted May 8, 2008 21:48 UTC (Thu) by ajross (guest, #4563) [Link] (3 responses)

I won't step into the "US Courts are teh suX0r" mess.  But I will point out that the example
is flawed: SCO is the plaintiff in their case.  The goal of the free software community in the
SCO case is just to protect the status quo.  As they haven't won a judgment yet (and don't
appear to be likely to at any point in the future), the status quo is still in effect and
"we're winning".  The courts are doing their job.

Skype vs. SCO

Posted May 8, 2008 22:29 UTC (Thu) by djao (guest, #4263) [Link] (2 responses)

I would add to your remarks that the US court system (or any court system for that matter) is
not designed to deal with the situation where a plaintiff seeks to drag out a case. In most
court cases, the plaintiff wants a resolution as soon as possible, to redress whatever wrongs
they have suffered. SCO, on the other hand, wants to prolong the litigation for as long as
possible, and they don't seem to be in any hurry to collect damages. 

Skype vs. SCO

Posted May 9, 2008 8:01 UTC (Fri) by jd (guest, #26381) [Link]

You're probably correct, I've never looked into it, but I'd regard it as wasting court time
and ergo contempt of court. This is just my opinion, but where foot-dragging is clearly
demonstrated AND is clearly foot-dragging, then the party so doing should be held in custody
for a time equal to the time wasted.

Where the foot-dragging is an effort to manipulate the court system by draining the defendent
of resources, that should be considered a criminal act and the custody should be that of jail
until a decision is made as to whether to press criminal charges.

Where the foot-dragging appears to have no actual purpose but appears to be connected with
delusions (real beliefs that have no foundation and would be accepted as impossible by any
reasonable person with exactly the same knowledge in exactly the same circumstance), psychosis
or schizoeffective behaviour (good managers are mildly schizophrenic, studies suggest, but
that does imply they must eventually snap), then the custody should be in a mental facility
until a thorough medical examination can determine the competency of the individual and
whether involuntary commitment may be required.

SCO may well fit in the latter.

Skype vs. SCO

Posted May 10, 2008 16:57 UTC (Sat) by dvdeug (subscriber, #10998) [Link]

I think two suits between two companies tend to be long drawn out affairs, due to the number
of documents that tend to get requisitioned and number of people to talk to, and the sheer
amount of money meaning that no stone goes unturned. Novell v. SCO wasn't that slow, and I
think SCO v. IBM would have gone a lot quicker if IBM had the slightest bit of culpability and
thus a reason not to let SCO take as much rope as it wanted. 

Skype vs. SCO

Posted May 9, 2008 8:01 UTC (Fri) by sylware (guest, #35259) [Link] (1 responses)

>...and it's bankrupted an entire company (SCO).

I wonder which collective is financing this never ending story... Really I wonder...

Skype vs. SCO

Posted May 11, 2008 7:22 UTC (Sun) by jd (guest, #26381) [Link]

George Lucas. With Darth Vader and the Emperor dead in RotJ, he's got no evil menaces for
episodes 6-9, Darth McBride would be ideal.

Skype == Ebay

Posted May 8, 2008 22:31 UTC (Thu) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link] (3 responses)

It should be noted that Skype did not defend their violation of the GPL.  Skype is wholly
owned by Ebay.  Ebay defended the violation.

Ebay and its owners are also big supporters of Bush and his crew.  Buying from Ebay or selling
on Ebay makes you a supporter too.  Transferring money using Paypal, likewise.  I've found I
can live without Ebay.  

Skype == Ebay

Posted May 8, 2008 23:58 UTC (Thu) by atai (subscriber, #10977) [Link] (1 responses)

The parent reply is more slashdot-ish and not very ncm-ish.

Skype == Ebay

Posted May 9, 2008 4:58 UTC (Fri) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

I'll take that as a compliment.  Thanks.

We all have bad days.

Skype == Ebay

Posted May 9, 2008 1:06 UTC (Fri) by meabandit (guest, #51969) [Link]

While I do agree ebay's action's are becoming more and more obscene, the upper echelon of
ebay's management has a long history of supporting Democrats and Republicans.  Check out their
donation list for the current campaign.  It includes every major canidate from both sides.
Lobbying is a plague upon the Federal government, not a burden Republicans bear alone
unfortunately.

www.opensecrets.org

I prefer to think of them as akin to Apple which pulls shenanigans of a similar nature.

The GPL wins in Germany - again

Posted May 9, 2008 7:40 UTC (Fri) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (2 responses)

Skype, Pirate Bay... both come from Sweden.

I thought Skype was from Estonia. Wikipedia agrees.

The GPL wins in Germany - again

Posted May 9, 2008 19:02 UTC (Fri) by dion (guest, #2764) [Link] (1 responses)

Well, the two guys behind Skype are Niklas Zennström, a swede and Janus Friis, a Dane.

The main servers are located in Denmark.

The GPL wins in Germany - again

Posted May 9, 2008 19:08 UTC (Fri) by JoeF (guest, #4486) [Link]

And a large part of the software was written in Estonia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skype
"It was created by entrepreneurs Niklas Zennström, Janus Friis, and a team of software developers based in Tallinn, Estonia."

A win for common sense

Posted May 9, 2008 4:41 UTC (Fri) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] (8 responses)

I like it how the judge slammed Skype with common sense:

> "If a publisher wants to publish a book of an author that wants his book only to be
published in a green envelope, then that might seem odd to you, but still you will have to do
it as long as you want to publish the book and have no other agreement in place."

Isn't this what LWN readers have been saying about GPL for years?

:-))

A win for common sense

Posted May 9, 2008 5:42 UTC (Fri) by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164) [Link] (7 responses)

Isn't that great? The words 'common sense' and 'Judge' positively in one 
sentence? ;-)

It's difference between German and British law systems

Posted May 9, 2008 6:35 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (6 responses)

British law (also used in US) is precedent-driven: is someone brings precedent judge should try to either use it or explain why it's not applicable. In effect there are millions of laws (since every precedent it used as surrogate law) and so it all becomes a game - common sense can rarely be used. German system, on the other hand, treat precedents as hints. Judge is even allowed to say "oh, I don't know why it was decided this way back then - *I* will not support this decision today". Anathema in US. Of course if it's supreme court decision - it's yet-another-law (like in US) but not many affairs are important and controversial enough to reach supreme court. So common sense is important.

It's difference between German and British law systems

Posted May 9, 2008 8:50 UTC (Fri) by AlexHudson (guest, #41828) [Link] (4 responses)

That's not really close to how it works.

British case law is used to ensure consistent interpretation of law; it's not law itself and
there are varying degrees of court who can decide to follow or reject it. You don't have to go
to Supreme Court to get a bad decision over-turned.

A court may make a bad decision; using case law as a support is a way of the court showing
it's interpreting the law correctly. If it's not interpreting the law correctly the case law
doesn't matter a jot. Saying that the process is like a game of precedents is wrong; they're
just useful tools which lawyers don't have to argue from first principles in every case.

It's difference between German and British law systems

Posted May 9, 2008 15:23 UTC (Fri) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link] (3 responses)

And more importantly, a system where there isn't consistency, i.e. where any Judge can make up
verdicts rather than rely on the case history to ensure that everyone petitioning the court
gets essentially the same treatment would be the opposite of Justice. The purpose of case law
is to ensure uniformity and fairness in the system with one central authority (Supreme Court)
to decide what the appropriate interpretation of the law is when different regional courts
come to different conclusions.

What you call common sense, I call favoritism or persecution. Judges routinely like to hide
their own bias under the label of "common sense". IMO the use of a Common Law system is much
more appropriate when considered in it's entirety than any other system I'm aware of. 

Here we go again

Posted May 9, 2008 17:40 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

And more importantly, a system where there isn't consistency ... would be the opposite of Justice

Quite true - that's why single cupreme court usually can overturn any and all decisions and judge can be retired if it's decisions are regularly overturned by supreme court.

What you call common sense, I call favoritism or persecution. Judges routinely like to hide their own bias under the label of "common sense".

Commow law does not protect from this - or else Texas judges were getting the same proportion of copyright lawsuits as everyone else.

Common law has positive feedback loop in the system. And while "the same treatment" looks good in theory on practice the end result is "the same incorrect treatment". A lot of strange abberations (like software patents) were created this way. This can hardly be called "height of justice". A lot of lawmakers activity in US and UK are needed to stop this process from wreaking the whole system. It works, but is this an optimal solution? I'm not so sure - the whole things looks strikingly similar to RBMK (where positive feedback is negated by external circuit) and while RMBK is more efficient then normal PWR without such feedback loop 1986 showed that it's not strictly speaking "better"...

Here we go again

Posted May 15, 2008 6:42 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link]

Bear in mind that there is one crucial difference between US and UK law - which is that in the
US the Supreme Court truly *is* supreme, but in the UK, the courts are ultimately subject to
the Crown (and therefore the government of the day). In particular, an Act of Parliament can
(and on occasion, does) stomp on an undesirable precedent immediately; but the reverse is not
true - a court cannot throw out a law.

God knows I'm not defending such a system, but it does seem to clip the feedback loop you're
complaining about.

It's difference between German and British law systems

Posted May 15, 2008 10:47 UTC (Thu) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link]

You forget the supreme courts. Anyone who is of the opinion that he/she was treated unfairly
can appeal to the supreme court.

Former cases of the supreme court -DOES- set precedent.

The tricky thing when every case sets precedent is that eventually some judge will make a
mistake, and the one unfairly treated lacks the resources or motivation to appeal, so the case
stands.

Whereafter -everyone- must, for consistency, be treated in that precise unfair manner.

It's difference between German and British law systems

Posted May 12, 2008 10:54 UTC (Mon) by mattmelton (guest, #34842) [Link]

(IANALY)

I think this is purely a decision on the merits of the case. There was a licence, it was not
followed. The legality of the licence was not at stake.

Common law systems that employ the British style to approaching case law follow the maxim of
"stare decisis" - follow what's decided. Coupled with the  principal of precedent, there is no
legal method of creating law in courts.

This is quite different to the European system, where judges play a much more active role in
interpreting and applying the wide definition of statue/past decisions. In the UK courts will
pass judgement on a narrow definition and give leave to appeal to a higher court who may
construe things differently, in favour of 'better law'. This 'better law' is a positive
feedback mechanism - it might be a diservice initially, but when a higher court rules, its
argument makes up precedent and is far more authoritative (or pursuasive depending on the
court and make up of a sister bench) than a case-by-case interpretive approach.

The technique employed is an interesting one. A ruling today should reflect the statue from
which the case was ruled on. If a court starts redefining law (as you see in ECJ law all the
bloody time - ECJ decisions are not bound by precedent) it over steps its constitutional role
as the judicial body, becoming part legislative - this is interfering with the Government.

Now I say all that, but that's not what really happens. Instead we have indirect effects in
British case law, that are purely beneficial. If a court can distinguish a case, it can choose
not to follow the precedent. Quite often, unpopular law will be limited to it's own facts by
subsequent decisions. Sometimes, and this is a rare event, decisions will be overruled - but
such things only happen in the House of Lords. When a court does make a decision that appears
different to either the common law position or statue, it will justify this position. A Judge
or Lord's dicta will introduce the legal abstraction, and then break it down, into smaller
component attributes that make up a legal test or framework. These principals are almost
normally backwardly compatible (who said law and computers don't mix!) with prior decisions.
Hence the effect of creating primary law, from case law.

Modern methods of interpreting law have expanded past the wide and narrow distinctions into
purely interpretive methods. Take Tort law for example (a civil claim against another) - some
of the laws enacted hundreds of years ago have no relevance today, and thus, they are not
applied when they reach significantly high courts. This often happens with a constitutional
consensus - but alas, I'm not on a bench so I can't rightly comment on the inner workings of
the trickier aspects of the law.

The British common law system is undergoing a major revamp at the moment, since the signings
of the Treaty of the European Union, and royal consent give to the Human Rights Act, and
recently the Constitutional Reform Act. Much of what I said will give way to a more
interpretative approach, akin to EC law, since it is now enshrined into UK law. Unfortunately
EC law requires a different approach to development and application. There is already
significant tension between the law Lords and the Government on this principal.

Matt

The GPL wins in Germany - again

Posted May 9, 2008 8:54 UTC (Fri) by etienne_lorrain@yahoo.fr (guest, #38022) [Link] (1 responses)

> "anything less than full GPL compliance"

 So where is the source code?

 Please, someone who has legally acquired Skype product, put their source
code on some anonymous FTP server - and keep up to date.
 Then, any GPL software used can have a look at the bugfixes applied;
and we will get source code of the drivers linked to the GPL block (derived
work). Do they have any interesting drivers, like stuff from other
company - that said other company refuses to publish source?

 Unless we will need another round in the court to get the previous
court decision applied, SCO way...

The GPL wins in Germany - again

Posted May 9, 2008 10:13 UTC (Fri) by Los__D (guest, #15263) [Link]

For now, this is "only" a preliminary injuction, meaning they are not allowed to sell the
device until the case has been decided, AFAIK.


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