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Determining applicability is hard

Determining applicability is hard

Posted Apr 30, 2008 11:00 UTC (Wed) by dvdeug (subscriber, #10998)
In reply to: Determining applicability is hard by jreiser
Parent article: Ksplice: kernel patches without reboots

Why? That's not what "semantic changes to data structures" means; it means that you can't
change the meaning or layout of data structures. What implies that it can't use stores to

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Determining applicability is hard

Posted Apr 30, 2008 14:54 UTC (Wed) by jreiser (subscriber, #11027) [Link]

If any of the past outputs are "in view" (are stored in memory, or were used as inputs to
compute data that is stored in memory at the time of the patch), then changing an algorithm
such that its output changes, is a semantic change to the past outputs.  Running the patched
algorithm on the original inputs won't give the same outputs as the original algorithm, and
many things rely on getting the same output.

Determining applicability is hard

Posted May 1, 2008 0:59 UTC (Thu) by jzbiciak (subscriber, #5246) [Link]

I'm not sure I follow. Let's look at a patch, shall we?

--- a/mm/memory.c
+++ b/mm/memory.c
@@ -983,6 +983,8 @@ int get_user_pages(struct task_struct *tsk, struct mm_struct *mm,
        int i;
        unsigned int vm_flags;
+       if (len <= 0)
+               return 0;
         * Require read or write permissions.
         * If 'force' is set, we only require the "MAY" flags.

(If our dear editor is reading, he might get a chuckle out of my selection.)

I would argue that "get_user_pages" has plenty of side effects in memory on nearly all interesting execution paths. And yet, I imagine this splicing trick works just fine with this patch.

We've changed the algorithm for "get_user_pages" so it doesn't do strange and mysterious things (occasionally leading to local-root exploits) when the length is negative. Since we didn't free all other user pages ahead of time, previous outputs are "in view."

What I *will* buy is if someone exploited this hole on a running kernel, patching the bug after the fact won't cause the bogus allocation to disappear. But, in that case, you're b0rked anyway.

Your argument applies only when valid inputs give materially different outputs. Note that I say materially different. If I change Initial Sequence Number generation in my TCP/IP stack (a noticeable change!), I don't have to close all other TCP connections that are in the process of being established. I just get better behavior going forward.

Determining applicability is hard

Posted May 9, 2008 6:40 UTC (Fri) by xamal (guest, #51976) [Link]

Read my comments above where I post references to how and why this is done. Some systems do
not have the luxury of someone physically going to install new software and flicking a switch.

When applying a HOT-PATCH you do want to ensure that the patched area is not cached or some
intensive application is going on. The ideal way is to send the computer to some idle state
(some sort of idle loop), do the patch and transition from the idle mode.

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