Nokia on its relationship with the open source community [LWN.net]

Quim Gil has posted a brief note with pointers to a talk by Ari Jaaksi (in text, audio (MP3) and PDF slides forms) on how Nokia wants to work with the open source community. "We at Nokia are working hard to get it. We have to. We need to get better in communicating our strategies and plans. We need to be more open and get even more involved in various projects and communities. We must be better at articulating our views, providing information and code back, and supporting the community. We must be sure we support freedom and openness and do not try to limit anybodys work. But at the same time, we must be better at telling what is OK for us and what is not."

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Software patents and encumbered formats

Posted Mar 14, 2008 14:41 UTC (Fri) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link] (8 responses)

The best thing Nokia could do for the free software community is to stop their lobbying for software patents in Europe, and stop working against free formats like Ogg. That said, there is no reason not to work with Nokia on particular projects, just as there is no reason not to work with Microsoft or any other company in specific areas.

Software patents and encumbered formats

Posted Mar 14, 2008 21:43 UTC (Fri) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] (3 responses)

As I understand it, Nokia, and others, are worried that Ogg might not really be free. Yes, as far as we know there are no patents to be infringed, but Microsoft recently got burned for a lot of money over MP3 patents, even though it had paid up in full to the MP3 patent consortium. This is because Alcatel figured out that they had two applicable patents that weren't part of the pool, years afterward.

The fear is that someone is sitting out there waiting for a big player to get behind Ogg, and then to whip out some ancient, unnoticed patent and demand hundreds of millions. It's difficult to prove that no such patent exists.

I don't know if there is any way to address these fears. I think that the Ogg folks can assure people that nothing on the big MP3 patent list is infringed by Ogg, because it was carefully designed to be different. But the worry is that some other patent is out there lurking, perhaps a submarine patent that had already been filed when Ogg was designed.

I can't be certain if this is Nokia's real issue. If it is, perhaps there is some way to address it.

Software patents and encumbered formats

Posted Mar 14, 2008 22:07 UTC (Fri) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link]

Obviously, one way to address the problem is to get rid of software patents, or at least not
actively try to make the situation worse as Nokia has done.

Yes, it is hard to be sure there is no lurking patent that covers Ogg.  The same is true for
MP3 and any other format.  The only consolation you have with MP3 is the thought that if
somebody had a patent they probably would have asserted it by now.  But then that's surely
what Microsoft thought.

Re: Nokia and Ogg

Posted Mar 15, 2008 6:00 UTC (Sat) by ldo (guest, #40946) [Link] (1 responses)

As I understand it, Nokia, and others, are worried that Ogg might not really be free. Yes, as far as we know there are no patents to be infringed, but Microsoft recently got burned for a lot of money over MP3 patents, even though it had paid up in full to the MP3 patent consortium.

So a closed-source vendor got burned. Yes, Open Source is vulnerable, too, but so is all software, as your example indicates.

What can the Ogg folks, or other open-source folks, do about it? Nothing. The problem is with software patents in general. Get rid of those, and the problem goes away. Why should software be the only product in the world that benefits from two kinds of legal protection, both copyright and patent?

Re: Nokia and Ogg

Posted Mar 16, 2008 4:40 UTC (Sun) by omez (guest, #6904) [Link]

"copyright and patent"

and contract law.

Software patents and encumbered formats

Posted Mar 14, 2008 22:20 UTC (Fri) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (3 responses)

Ogg is a container format, not a video or audio codec. It can contain payload data encoded in
a multitude of video and audio formats, which may or may not be covered by software patents.
When you call Ogg a "free format", you are confusing this distinction and your argument
becomes invalid.

Software patents and encumbered formats

Posted Mar 15, 2008 0:23 UTC (Sat) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link] (2 responses)

Oh... I was going to say Ogg Vorbis, but I thought that Vorbis referred to a particular
program implementing the encoding and decoding, and not to the spec of the audio file itself.
What is the technically correct way to refer to the most popular Ogg audio format?

Software patents and encumbered formats

Posted Mar 15, 2008 7:39 UTC (Sat) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link]

Vorbis, not Ogg Vorbis, since Vorbis can be stored in containers other than Ogg and the name
of the audio codec is just plain Vorbis.

Supposedly unencumbered formats

Posted Mar 15, 2008 8:01 UTC (Sat) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link]

> What is the technically correct way to refer to the most popular Ogg audio format?

Ogg Vorbis.

Nokia on its relationship with the open source community

Posted Mar 14, 2008 16:07 UTC (Fri) by forthy (guest, #1525) [Link]

They should mention the word "listening" more often than "telling". This sounds like the typical top-down management style of a large company: Tell people down below what is OK and what not, what's the strategy, and what they have to do. NOT. This is not how you operate with the FOSS community. This is mistake number 1, and as long as you keep making it, progress is extremely difficult.

Nokia on its relationship with the open source community

Posted Mar 14, 2008 17:23 UTC (Fri) by Thue (guest, #14277) [Link] (4 responses)

My Nokia 5300 has an mini-USB port. The phone doesn't work with my Linux PC as an USB mass storage device, but when I complained to Nokia they said "we don't support Linux". My next phone won't be a Nokia.

Nokia on its relationship with the open source community

Posted Mar 15, 2008 0:17 UTC (Sat) by jhoger (guest, #33302) [Link]

Truly. The problem is likely that their software development arm doesn't have much of anything
to do with their tech support.

But if it did (and they generally do work together in the small companies I like to work at)
anyone running Linux that calls tech support should just get a free pass to level 3 tech
support. That means you get to talk to an actual engineer.

There are relatively few Linux users, and of those, most do not call tech support. We tend to
solve problems ourselves whenever possible, so it is the best kind of tech support: we only
call with an actual problem, so we are effectively providing free-of-charge SQA service.

-- John.

Nokia on its relationship with the open source community

Posted Mar 15, 2008 8:16 UTC (Sat) by jamesh (guest, #1159) [Link]

The phone memory can probably be accessed via OBEX-FTP over either Bluetooth or USB, if it
makes any difference.  It might not be your first choice of industry standard protocol, but it
is documented and there is Linux software support.

To tell the truth, I doubt the manufacturers of any of the phones I can buy locally would have
answered differently.

Nokia on its relationship with the open source community

Posted Mar 15, 2008 13:16 UTC (Sat) by larryn (guest, #3457) [Link]

That's really odd. My N95 8GB plugs in openSUSE and it recognizes as mass storage device right
away...

Granted Nokia raises their voice with patent which is a big deal to a lot of fans but look at
their involvement with OSS on the Internet Tablet.

The fact that they have less restriction on what you could do with your phone, unlike the
overhpyed iP, I really appreciate that.

If I'm not mistaken, you can't not discuss iPhone SDK on its list, you can't use Opera, any
programming langugage (Pyhon, Java, Perl, Ruby) to write your app. You can't use VoIP app.
Now, I'm not a developer but all of the above you could use with any Nokia phone.

Nokia on its relationship with the open source community

Posted Mar 19, 2008 2:53 UTC (Wed) by soulhunter (guest, #51117) [Link]

Hi!

I got: Nokia 5200 and Nokia 5310 , them both work as:

+ Storage Device
+ ACM Modem
+ And, off course, via bluetooth.

No problems.  The funny part: the "memory" looks like an scsi device, no 
partition (sdb , in my case), so, mount /dev/sdb /media/usbx would do the 
trick for me.  Oh, I hasn't tried to plug my phones without the minisd 
card.

I'm using Linux kernel 2.6.24.2 , Debian Sid.

I haven't tried 5300, but 5200 and 5310 are pretty much the same, and 5300 
looks like a 5200 "with steroids".

Btw, them both have a problem with mp3 codec, so, from time to time, they 
just "reset" while playing music :( .  Fortunelly, it is uncommon (about 
once every 10 hours of music or so).

I hope this helps.

Nokia on its relationship with the open source community

Posted Mar 15, 2008 2:12 UTC (Sat) by jd (guest, #26381) [Link]

Nokia could start by clarifying their software patent portfolio on multicast multimedia and
multicast file delivery. I'm thinking specifically of whether these are intended for
market-cornering purposes or whether they're going to make arrangements with the open source
community the way IBM did.