What puts women off FOSS? [LWN.net]

What puts women off FOSS?

Posted Sep 29, 2007 16:35 UTC (Sat) by tuxchick (guest, #42009)
In reply to: What puts women off FOSS? by endecotp
Parent article: To Sir, with Love: How To Get More Women Involved in Open Source (O'ReillyNet)

I'm familiar with some of the incidents Clytie is referring to, and yes, the people involved are taking it seriously. They're getting law enforcement involved and making abuse reports to ISPs and so forth. For whatever good it does, but it beats just taking it.

The bigger point, I think, that Clytie is making is that women receive special evil attention simply for being women, and all the people who claim there are no problems are lying or delusional. And that the FOSS world is much too tolerant of evil and hostile behaviors. Me, I don't expect men to come riding in on white chargers to rescue us- I would like more people to admit that there are problems, instead of denying it or expecting us to tolerate them as the price of participating in FOSS. No one should have to tolerate hostile or rude treatment as the price of participating in FOSS. That's so obvious I feel silly having to say it, but obviously it's a debatable issue to a sizable number of people.

As always, the LWN readers are the best, and post the most thoughtful, rational comments. Thank you. This particular discussion is happening all over, and the noise ratio is always a lot higher elsewhere.

to post comments

What puts women off FOSS?

Posted Sep 29, 2007 16:46 UTC (Sat) by rknop (guest, #66) [Link] (2 responses)

the noise ratio is always a lot higher elsewhere.

This I find alarming, because in this thread the percentage of commenters who are Lubos Motl (an openly misogynistic physicist who sometimes posts on this topic in physics) is much higher than it is when the topic comes up in physics.

This reminds me of something I read that came out of the discussion of RPG geekdom. Insofar as there are community overlaps and similarities between FOSS geekdom and RPG geekdom, it might be relevant: Give Geek Social Fallacies.

It's not directly applicable, but the "Friends Accept Me As I Am" fallacy sounds related here. FOSS accepts evil behavior because of the social fallacy that we're supposed to accept evil behavior from somebody who's got the chops to be a programmer. It's very ironic, of course, because it's very hypocritical; women find themselves very much not accepted as they are, whereas the misogynists too often are.

What puts women off FOSS?

Posted Sep 29, 2007 17:04 UTC (Sat) by tuxchick (guest, #42009) [Link] (1 responses)

Heh, maybe the noise ratio is higher than I realized at first. I still appreciate the intelligent, thoughtful comments.

I think that the "Friends Accept Me As I Am" fallacy is definitely a factor. Five Geek Social Fallacies discusses this, and I think it's right on.

Five GSFs

Posted Oct 2, 2007 12:55 UTC (Tue) by forthy (guest, #1525) [Link]

I haven't observed these fallacies. Trolls are regularly kill-filed and people reply to their baits with "don't feed the trolls". If they behave too awful, they are kicked out of BBs, where that's possible. It's difficult on usenet and mailing lists where everybody can subscribe and it's technically difficult to kick somebody out. The same thing is true for friends. This GSFs seem to come from a parallel universe. There are a lot of things to debate with geek friends, and maybe you put the priority differently. You may criticize your geek friend for using Ubuntu instead of Gentoo (or the other way round), but his pony tail+goatee hairdress is definitely not important. This sort of discussion - if at all - comes up in political discussion, like "Have you ever been harassed by the police for looking like a long-haired bearded bomb planter?" and you get actual fact based answers on that ("No, I haven't, but the guy next to me with a much better shaved beard has been twice").

We might have different standards, though, but we have standards. If you think in usual academic standards, Linus would have kicked out of usenet and OS development when it came to the famous flamewar with Tanenbaum. Linus just didn't follow the conventions, and insisted (in a rather childish manner) that he (beginner) was right, and Prof. Dr. Tanenbaum was wrong. So we can't remove this sort of "jerks". Today it's probably the other way round, Prof. Dr. Linus (ok, he hasn't got the title, but the reputation) calls some thread "idiotic", like the "large block" discussion, and a few other guys simply continue, because they don't care about reputation. That's how it ought to work, that's our standard. Reputation is nothing, show us the code.

Some people have already complained here about how we treat people who don't follow the conducts, like clueless newbies or "normal people" who just want their computer to be fixed, and no discussion. Hey, it's hard if there are rules and you chose not to follow them or not even to know them!

Do women actually receive special evil attention simply for being women ?

Posted Sep 29, 2007 20:05 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

It looks mightily strange to me. How many women who never participated in "let's bring women in ...." campaigns (but are involved in FOSS) got such "evil attention" ? To me it looks like the campaign and participants got evil attention, not just women in FOSS. And I certainly can understand why: to declare "sexism in FOSS" big problem and then to organize sexually segregated group to solve said problem looks just hypocrisy to me, but to misogynists in FOSS it certainly looks like conspiracy a-la SCO. So actual surprise is not that some women got death threats but that they expected they will avoid them!

And yes, that's actual problem with FOSS: since there are so few women misogynists can thrive here. It's kind of catch 22 problem: while women treatment does not affect FOSS misogynists will be tolerated - and women treatment will not affect FOSS till women will not become active participants! Tough problem to solve.

What puts women off FOSS?

Posted Sep 29, 2007 21:16 UTC (Sat) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link] (3 responses)

I would like more people to admit that there are problems, instead of denying it or expecting us to tolerate them as the price of participating in FOSS.

I admit that there are problems like sick people who send death threats to Darl McBride or to females as general, and I think these people should be dealt by the police or mental institues (so I don´t tolerate them) - but what does it have to do with the community in general? Is there anyone in the FOSS community who tolerates these people?

Bye,NAR

Unfortunatelly yes...

Posted Sep 29, 2007 21:26 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (2 responses)

How can you know if someone from LKML or even LWN threatened Darl or someone from Debian-Women group ? You'll probably never know. And since there are so few women in "normal" mailing lists it's hard to catch such guys...

So yes, they are tolerated - not because anyone likes them but because
1. People don't know.
2. People don't care - sometimes actively don't care (we care here only about technical superiority - don't ring any bells?).
If someone if antisocial in general and hates linuxchix in particular but does good technical work - will he be tolerated ? Sadly quite often the answer is "yes" - and it affects not just women.

Unfortunatelly yes...

Posted Sep 30, 2007 13:05 UTC (Sun) by niner (guest, #26151) [Link] (1 responses)

1. How on earth can one tolerate someone, if one doesn't even know him or what he does? Without an object this action cannot be carried out, so a statement like "they are tolerated because people don't know" ha no meaning at all.

2. That someone is antisocial in general or hates linuxchix in particular does not mean that one has to shut him out and ignore his technical contributions. That's his personal views and he is entitled to that, even if I'd personally think he's a dork. Now if he actively offends someone else (e.g. a woman), not even to mention death threats, that's a whole different issue. That's exactly where toleration has to end.

Unfortunatelly yes...

Posted Sep 30, 2007 13:41 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

I think khim meant that the specific people who made the death threats or
whatever are tolerated in the community because nobody knows that those
specific people made the threats, and that if it was widely known, those
people would (one hopes) be ostracised or in some other way receive
negative social reinforcement. (Being nasty to people who send death
threats seems fine to me. Such people have shown themselves to not be
shrinking violets already.)

What puts women off FOSS?

Posted Sep 30, 2007 0:03 UTC (Sun) by endecotp (guest, #36428) [Link] (1 responses)

> the FOSS world is much too tolerant of evil and hostile behaviors

"the FOSS world" is composed of many smallish enclaves. There are plenty of them where people are much too rude for my sensitivities. But there are enough others where I get along fine, so I ignore the rude places.

> women receive special evil attention simply for being women, and
> all the people who claim there are no problems are lying or delusional.

That's a bit strong; please also consider the possibility of ignorance. I have never seen any of the abuse that you're describing; I'm not lying and I don't think I'm deluded.

What puts women off FOSS?

Posted Oct 1, 2007 11:40 UTC (Mon) by alankila (guest, #47141) [Link]

People like you do wonders to get me off my edge with this whole "women in OSS" issue. It is because you seem to oppose what I interprete to be much more radical forms of feminism.

For instance, to cast this "women receive special evil attention just for being woman" in such black-and-white terms as tuxchick is doing doesn't really leave any room for discussion. You either agree with her instantly, or are cast as delusional?

(Well, sure, some women at least sometimes receive some "evil attention" which wouldn't come their way if they weren't women. I can agree to that much, but I feel it's already watered down version of the problem and thus I'm "delusional", no doubt.)

Just how is looking at issues this way supposed to promote any kind of understanding or lead to positive actions to fix the problem. It's obvious that only a few people can be doing this. And they may be nothing more than internet trolls. The rule one of dealing with internet trolls is that you don't talk back to the internet trolls.

It seems to me that we are yet to agree on what the problem specifically is and what should be done to repair it. (And that means getting to level of practical actions, not handwaving about how women are entitled not to feel oppressed, we can agree to that.)

What puts women off FOSS?

Posted Oct 1, 2007 13:52 UTC (Mon) by peace (guest, #10016) [Link]

Could you please explain how you know that the threats originated from a contributer to FLOSS? You painting the community with a very large brush given that the Internet is open to anyone and nothing is preventing crazy people from latching on anywhere they choose.

Let me suggest this: There really is nothing wrong with the FLOSS community. The problems that women are finding are do to the larger acceptance of FLOSS in the world and the flocking of all sorts of disturbed individuals to areas where they can easily get attention or strike out in pitiful attempts at having any power at all in the world.

I really have no idea how an actual FLOSS _contributor_ could find the time or inclination to send out death threats to anyone. What would be the point? Don't you think it is more likely we are dealing with your run of the mill jackass here and that it is not likely to be a central problem with all the blood thirsty sociopathic FLOSS developers so prevalent in society?

Kind Regards