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Thunderbird to find new home as Mozilla Foundation focuses on Firefox (MozillaZine)

MozillaZine reports that management of the Mozilla Thunderbird mail client will be separated from the Mozilla Firefox browser. "On her weblog, Mozilla Corporation CEO Mitchell Baker has announced that Mozilla Thunderbird is to move to a "new, separate organizational setting" as the Mozilla Foundation continues to focus ever more closely on Mozilla Firefox. While the Mozilla Foundation supports a number of projects, its taxable subsidiary the Mozilla Corporation is responsible for only Firefox and Thunderbird. However, it has become increasingly clear that Firefox is the priority."

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Thunderbird to find new home as Mozilla Foundation focuses on Firefox (MozillaZine)

Posted Jul 26, 2007 23:47 UTC (Thu) by bluegecko (guest, #42312) [Link] (19 responses)

Is it such a good idea (financially) to "put all the eggs in one basket" ?

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Jul 27, 2007 0:18 UTC (Fri) by pr1268 (guest, #24648) [Link] (17 responses)

Well, at least they're not going the other direction and acquiring a whole bunch of other software programs (either related to their core business or not). That would be soooo Microsoft.... ;-)

A generalization based on my perceptions: A lot of users (myself included) have abandoned the use of a standalone e-mail client in favor of a Web-based mail service accessed through a Web browser. I discovered how convenient Web mail was about 10 years ago with a Yahoo! mail account, and how inconvenient it is having unsynchronized mail folders. Just maybe this explains why MozillaCorp is making Thunderbird fly away (it certainly helps to explain why Mozilla was split into Firefox and Thunderbird several years back).

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Jul 27, 2007 1:05 UTC (Fri) by xanni (subscriber, #361) [Link] (16 responses)

Having synchronised mail folders doesn't require using webmail. That's what IMAP is for.

Regards,
Andrew

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Jul 27, 2007 5:12 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (8 responses)

If you'll compare WebMail and IMAP-mail you'll find out that IMAP has big plus: it's usable in offline mode (not in all mailers, though), but WebMail has big plus too: it's usable via Internet kiosks or via any other computer with Web-browser. IMAP-mail must be installed and tuned.

While I'm pretty sure offline support can be added to WebMail (I think it's Google Gears goal, in fact) I'm not sure how can you introduce this "run anywhere without installation" thing to IMAP-mail...

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Jul 27, 2007 5:45 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (3 responses)

simple, you provide a webmail package that uses IMAP for the message store. that way you can access it via any IMAP client, or from a browser.

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Jul 27, 2007 5:46 UTC (Fri) by xanni (subscriber, #361) [Link]

Exactly. That's what I've done for years.

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Jul 27, 2007 6:04 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

The problem with this solution is that I don't need "any IMAP client" but "any single client". Sure - I can use some IMAP client which looks more-or-less like my WebMail client but then what's the point: it's easier to just always use WebMail client...

Webmail

Posted Jul 27, 2007 7:56 UTC (Fri) by tony (guest, #3654) [Link]

I can't stand webmail. It was slow years ago, and it's not a whole lot faster now. Plus, I have very little control over it; I'm stuck with whatever the webmail designer thought was a good idea.

I have yet to see a decent webmail package, one that's fast, easy to use, flexible, and collects all my email accounts into a single interface.

That's why I like Thunderbird (or any similar IMAP-based email client).

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Jul 27, 2007 8:47 UTC (Fri) by zzxtty (guest, #45175) [Link] (1 responses)

"WebMail has big plus too: it's usable via Internet kiosks or via any other computer with Web-browser"

Would you seriously trust a 3rd party computer in this day and age? I have a complete aversion to entering usernames and passwords into computer I do not own. You have absolutly no idea what's installed on the machine, software or hardware (I dont buy the personal bootable CD as a serious privicy option given you have no control over the hardware). It always amazes me when I go on holiday to remote places, when you get to a town people run into the nearest internet cafe to check their hotmail, I bet most of these machines are running hacked versions of windows, with no security, and probably full of spyware...

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Jul 27, 2007 12:05 UTC (Fri) by cate (subscriber, #1359) [Link]

Surely, but there is a partial workaround: one-time password (but it don't work for real-time trojans). OTOH it is simpler to install and configure own IMAP client for everyday usage than using a OTP

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Jul 27, 2007 12:05 UTC (Fri) by callegar (guest, #16148) [Link] (1 responses)

You are forgetting the biggest plus of IMAP (that is also the biggest problem of webmail). IMAP is _interoperable_, webmail is _closed_.

Example 1:
you have an email service. You dislike the quality of the service and you want to move to a new one. How do you bulk transfer your messages from one service to the other one via webmail? You don't.

Example 2:
you receive email on 2 different email addresses on different services. Say you have an office email and a private email. Now your colleagues know both and by mistake often send you private emails on your office address or the other way round. How do you organize your email (e.g. moving private messages in the right place) via webmail? You don't.

Example 3:
You do not trust your provider and you want to back up your email periodically on your local system. Or you do not get "infinite" space from your provider, so you need to clean up things periodically, but you also want to store somewhere your old email. How you bulk transfer messages from the server to local storage via webmail? You don't.

Example 4:
You have 5 different email addresses from different providers because you have many affiliations. How do you keep them under control all from within one window with webmail? You don't. How do you avoid having to learn to use 5 different interfaces with webmail? You don't.

So the conclusion is that webmail is typically easier to deploy (and thus a nice solution to have), but it can offer you only an extremely limited subset of what IMAP offers.

[By the way, this is why it is truly sad that some email providers such as gmail do not give you an IMAP access but only webmail or pop.]

Unfortunately when there is a possibility to chose between two options, one with severe limits and the other one without, most people not only will happily choose the first (that is legitimate), but will also implicitly pretend that having two options is useless complication.

The result is that rather than defending the freedom of choice (in this case suggesting that an IMAP client should be always installed/installable alongside a browser wherever needed), the best that is done is often to invoke hacks on the limited solution to overcome some of the limits. The problem is that often the limited solution is _by design_ hardly adaptable to new behaviours. And furthermore, by removing some of the limits often it becomes as complicated as the original unlimited one.

As a final remark, note that it is in fact quite easy to have anything running anywhere without installation. For instance think of vmplayer virtual appliances.

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Aug 2, 2007 7:14 UTC (Thu) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link]

You are confused, or atleast your argument is.

Webmail is not a competitor to IMAP. IMAP is a "message access protocol", it is not a email-user-interface.

Thunderbird supports using IMAP for accessing the actual messages.

Many webmail-programs do too.

webmail+imap is not in any way less interoperable than thunderbird+imap.

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Jul 27, 2007 5:58 UTC (Fri) by muwlgr (guest, #35359) [Link] (6 responses)

It's a shame that people tend to forget long-established protocols
like IMAP, SMTP, and NNTP (what itch people had to scratch that they invented these RSS/ATOM/etc ?)

I, for one, use SeaMonkey now (and before that, Mozilla 0.x..1.x,
Netscape Communicator v4, and Netscape Navigator v3), and for me,
its mail/news component is just as important as browser one.

After all, HTTP, even 1.1, is not a perfect solution for some problems.
It's not a silver bullet, and it is a hammer only for those who view every problem as nail. Its deficiencies are too well known, and strange, more and more stuff tends to be done "over http". What's the reason ? Firewall/proxy piercing ? False and unfounded sense of security ? We have the whole IPv4, why limit ourselves to mere http ? If so, why not disable in further standards (ipv8?) use of TCP for other things than HTTP ? :>

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Jul 27, 2007 6:22 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (5 responses)

It's not a silver bullet, and it is a hammer only for those who view every problem as nail. Its deficiencies are too well known, and strange, more and more stuff tends to be done "over http".

Nope. More and more stuff is done "in browser", not "over http". Sure, sometimes http is used as replacement for ftp - but there are no problems: it works well for that. In most other cases the goal is not to do something "via http", it's to do something "in browser".

What's the reason ? Firewall/proxy piercing ? False and unfounded sense of security ?

Nope. Usability. When you have something "in browser" (your mail, your news, your documents and so on) you can always access them. If you try to use something else (SMTP, IMAP, NNTP, etc) - you need client. And quite often you just can not install that client (corporate policy) or you just have not done it due to laziness.

We have the whole IPv4, why limit ourselves to mere http ?

Because it's easier. It's logical next step: very few are installing OS today (that's Windows is king and Linux is lagging), the next step is that few people want to install anything unless they absolutely need to. If web-based solution works - it's preferable to client-based solution. Netscape creator were right in a sense when they said that in the future web-browser will be the king and OS will be significantly less relevant - they just said it 15-20 years too early...

The fact is: people are scared by client solutions. They know that installation of something on Windows can easily screw your system and on Linux you can only easily install something if it's in your distribution repository. Cleanup (if you don't like something) is often incomplete (both in Windows and Linux). But with Web - it's easy: visit web-site, try the thing, if it does not work adequately - forget about it.

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Jul 27, 2007 6:45 UTC (Fri) by xanni (subscriber, #361) [Link] (4 responses)

The fact is: people are scared by client solutions. They know that installation of something on Windows can easily screw your system and on Linux you can only easily install something if it's in your distribution repository. Cleanup (if you don't like something) is often incomplete (both in Windows and Linux). But with Web - it's easy: visit web-site, try the thing, if it does not work adequately - forget about it.

Except that many of the "Web 2.0" applications actually require client-side browser plugins like Java, Flash, Quicktime, etc. and they are not always available, secure or easy to clean up.

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Jul 27, 2007 9:33 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (3 responses)

Flash is pretty much part of browser today. Or so people believe: when Opera DS was released the first question was not "does it include flash-support" but "how well flesh is supported". And when they got the answer "flash is not supported" the reaction was "how can you call it browser then ?". Java and QuickTime are significantly less popular. And anyway: if you'll compare number of required plugins (half-dozen or so) and number of available web-sites (hundreds if not thousands) it's still a win.

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Jul 27, 2007 12:31 UTC (Fri) by xanni (subscriber, #361) [Link]

Flash is pretty much part of browser today.

Not for my wife, running PowerPC Linux on a Mac Mini. She has to run MacOS X Firefox under MacOnLinux to use Flash sites like YouTube.

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Jul 27, 2007 13:45 UTC (Fri) by marduk (guest, #3831) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't agree with this at all. Flash is still effectively only usable by those running 32-bit x86 browsers and/or those willing to run non-free software.

All the eggs in one basket

Posted Jul 27, 2007 16:17 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

I don't agree with this at all. Flash is still effectively only usable by those running 32-bit x86 browsers and/or those willing to run non-free software.

Translation from English to English: while 90% of users see Flash as part of browser I know it's not true. I know this too, but does it really change anything ? 1% of users who stubbornly use 64-bit browsers and/or use only free software can't change the trend.

Thunderbird to find new home as Mozilla Foundation focuses on Firefox (MozillaZine)

Posted Jul 27, 2007 3:06 UTC (Fri) by pjdc (guest, #6906) [Link]

Considering their sole source of revenue is the Google search kickback, I'd say their financial eggs are already in one basket.

Thunderbird to find new home as Mozilla Foundation focuses on Firefox (MozillaZine)

Posted Jul 27, 2007 18:27 UTC (Fri) by alogghe (subscriber, #6661) [Link]

Wow,

Not sure when the sole goal of the Mozilla foundation became to have a browser war with IE....

As I understood the goals, it was to provide a vehicle for mozilla technologies to move forward and to open up space on the web for innovation.

Thunderbird is a great mail client (and a strong "product") that I use everyday. I'm not interested in gmail, though I realize all the "digerati" think that's the future (l2imap?).

Mitchell seems "sad" that Thunderbird isn't a raving success like Firefox...big surprise. Especially given that they've made little effort to bundle it or give it as an option in the installer for Firefox.

I think this current board is too caught up in Firefox's success and their really not all that clever leveraging of the toolbar to loot hits from google.

Several from the current board should resign and they should get some new blood. This decision seems disconnected with the original goals of the Mozilla foundation and it doesn't bode well for the future.


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