Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like? [LWN.net]

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 13, 2007 16:16 UTC (Tue) by wagadog (guest, #36995) [Link] (3 responses)

Polls like Dell's are IMHO Stupid. Enough Government agencies in the US and abroad have announced plans to shift to Linux that they should be able to get that one big customer whose choice would justify making a decision to support that. It'll pry be Ubuntu or RedHat.

By soliciting community comment, on the other hand, it appears that they may be just trying to "Stir the pot" in order to justify their prior claims that "the community doesn't know what it wants, so we can't possibly commit to one distro over another."

I just can't believe Michael Dell can't weigh the options (based on current install base, the requirements of a couple BIG prospective customers, and which distros have the best drivers for their current hardware) and MAKE AN EXECUTIVE DECISION. Isn't he an executive? Hasn't he made decisions before?

By creating a poll like this, it looks more like he's looking for reasons to stick with his decision to make no decision on pre-installed Linux (but continue to pre-install, oh, um....MS Windows XP and Vista?) so he can continue to talk the Linux talk but fail to walk the Linux walk.

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 13, 2007 16:38 UTC (Tue) by pbardet (guest, #22762) [Link] (2 responses)

When Dell removed the previous pool where Linux was the first choice, everyone cried foul. In fact, Dell actually moved on the result and wants to know more. To me, it's a big step, even if they end up ditching Linux because there is too much variability with what people want after this pool. But I will let them do their job, and we'll see what they decide.

Personnally, even if Dell offered Linux pre-installed, I don't know if I would buy it since I prefer to assemble my own computer.

I'm not sure why it's such an issue to oblige a private company to do something. Why the Linux community doesn't create such a business ? Oh wait, it's easier to tell someone to do something than doing it myself.

People (linux community) have been talking for years about getting Linux pre-installed on Dell. If the same amount of energy had been spent on creating a new company that would sell pre-installed Linux, we may not need Dell anymore, as long as it's actually good for business to sell Linux pre-installed computers.

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 14, 2007 12:25 UTC (Wed) by Cato (guest, #7643) [Link] (1 responses)

There are plenty of smaller companies that sell Linux pre-installed on PCs, but are you seriously suggesting starting a new one that will grow to the size of Dell? Somehow I think it's a tiny bit more practical to get Dell to support Linux better than to try to replace the whole company...

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 15, 2007 14:52 UTC (Thu) by pbardet (guest, #22762) [Link]

Why not ?
It's called competition. If those small new Linux companies were to actually grow as big as Dell (I don't care if we have to start a new one or if an existing one can do the job), you would see Dell selling Linux-based computer, for sure !!!

If they (small Linux companies) don't/didn't grow, it may mean there is no market (or too small) for that kind of system, and I can't blame a big manufacturer if they don't want to look into it. But so far, they (Dell) seem to show interest to try, and I can only give them kudos for it. Don't forget I replied to someone who said "this survey is stupid". I don't know who's stupid.

But you confirm my main point: it's easier (more practical in your terms) to ask someone else to do something than DIY.

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 13, 2007 16:28 UTC (Tue) by tkeitt (guest, #34685) [Link] (12 responses)

I found their last question telling:

Which distribution (paraphrasing)?

Suse and RedHat are listed as "commercial" and the others as "community supported". That is a common mistake in the business world and something eg Ubuntu needs to address directly. Ubuntu is just as "commercial" as RedHat and Suse. You can buy support for Ubuntu just like you can buy support for RedHat and Suse. (And you can freely download RedHat and Suse as well.) Its amazing that the commercial world STILL cannot grok the idea of value through sharing and accessory support. They seem to think if you did not buy the shrink-wrapped widget, it is not something that can be part of the business world. *Sigh*

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 13, 2007 17:22 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (8 responses)

Sorta.

I don't think that Cononical realy has the resources to scale to something like Dell's userbase.

Both Redhat and Novell have thousands of employees and dedicated service centers all over the world. They (and especially Novell) have existing contracts and a long history with a large number of government, educational, and business orginizations.

In my eyes the logical choice for Dell would be to go with Novell Suse and OpenSuse, personally. And if they feel that they have the resources then Ubuntu.

The thing is is that Linux currently is only realy very usefull (in terms of lay people) for business desktops were you have a controlled environment with existing support infrastructure.

The only Linux company realy qualified, IMO, to support business desktops at the same level as what you get from Microsoft is going to be Novell. Ubuntu is too small, Redhat has very little clue on the desktop and has mostly abandoned.

I don't know how similar OpenSuse is to Enterprise Suse, but if your going to want to have the support vs not support option for customers then having both versions as close as possible in temperment and compatability is going to be a very good thing.

For instance Dell will probably need to supply extra drivers (not nessicarially propriatory. Being able to reliably offer the same software packages for both versions is going to be a very good thing.

Now if your aiming for the home market then I'd pick something different.

My first choice would be Linspire for the commercial, and Ubuntu for the non-commercial.. But only after the Click'n'run interface is aviable on Ubuntu.

Then I would strongly pressure other distributions, especially Suse/OpenSuse, to work wtih Linspire to adopt compatability with that also.

Linspire, IMO, is the only company Linux commercialy oriented enough to dumb down Linux to the point were it's usefull for normal people. There is a strong need to make things just very simple. Fisher price simple so that you don't confuse and frighten normal home desktop users.

I mean seriously. Using Linux on your own, for a average person, will actually literally scare most people because they will get confused and not know what to do. But like I said I don't think that Linux distros are ready for home adoption.

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 13, 2007 17:36 UTC (Tue) by ewan (guest, #5533) [Link] (2 responses)

I mean seriously. Using Linux on your own, for a average person, will actually literally scare most people because they will get confused and not know what to do. But like I said I don't think that Linux distros are ready for home adoption.

For a large subset of home users that's just not true. There's a lot of people who want something that does a handful of core jobs (email/web/office) and nothing else. They don't want to tweak, they don't want to install games, 'cool' toys from the net, or upgrade to the latest thing just because it's the latest thing. Those people are already better off with Linux because it does what they need with less hassle than Windows does, and the jump in interface from XP->KDE or Gnome is only on the same order as the XP->Vista jump, so if they're in the market for a new system they're going to have to cope with that anyway. Those users would also be fine with a Mac, and for much the same reasons, but Linux is a lot easier to get into.

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 13, 2007 23:57 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (1 responses)

I'll give you a for instance.

I had a aunt email me a couple days ago with a problem they were having.

Her friend had Microsoft Windows installed onto a laptop and she had a Microsoft Movie maker that she had bought.

Her friend wanted to a photo collage video of her son for a graduation party, which is next week or so and they needed to get it done this next weekend so that they had time to prepare for the rest of the party.

The laptop didn't connect to a TV since it had no TV out and that was their first idea. I think they probably have seen people do that for power point presentations and such.

So they figured they could use Movie Maker to make a video, but they didn't know how to burn it to a DVD or how to get the pictures into Movie maker. They had to scan in photos also, but they knew how to do that.

So I have no experiance with this either, and I am not a Windows user so it took me a bit to figure out what to do for them.

I ended up with 2 things that looked like they'd probably work. The first one was to put their photos into Microsoft Photo Story 3 and buy a little 20 dollar add-on that would burn the photos to a dvd movie.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/digitalphotograp...

The second option was to take Movie maker to make a photo slide show, make a high quality WMV file then run down to tucows and use one of the dozens of shareware applications to burn the WMV into a DVD movie.

I found a tutorial somewere on Microsoft's site for how to make wmv slide shows or something like that.

I got a email back the next day thanking me and it worked great. These people have no prior experiance with this sort of thing and are not that computer literate.

This is pretty normal stuff for people to do. Photos, movies, and laudy-da. Burn movies, mp3 players. Just all sorts of stuff.

Now what if she emailed me and said that she has a friend who is running OpenSuse 10 (that maybe her cousin gave her or something weird) and she wanted to do the same thing.

What would I tell her?
Email her this:
http://dvd-slideshow.sourceforge.net/wiki/Simple_Example
?

I am sure that is nice and it probably isn't that difficult and probably has very good results (not knocking them at all), but it's quite a bit more.. intimidating.

Now if I was there, helping them out. Then that is entirely different.

If a computer illiterate person has a Linux person were they can ask questions of do the occasional update or figure this or that brain-dead-ness or bug with this or that program (which is common activity in Linux desktops), then Linux is VERY easy to use.

Once you get a person setup and going, then it's very simple. The UI generally makes sense, browsing is easy, email is easy (thunderbird kicks the crap out of Outlook any day of the week in terms of usability). All it takes is just a little help very occasionally.

But most people aren't going to have the linux person aviable to fall back on. So they may have firefox crash and have a stale lock file (which is not unusual). What is a normal person going to do figure out what to do when they never ever heard of lock files before in their entire life?

Aunts and computers

Posted Mar 15, 2007 7:09 UTC (Thu) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Is your aunt's name "Tilly"? I think I have heard that one... ;)

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 14, 2007 0:28 UTC (Wed) by TxtEdMacs (guest, #5983) [Link] (4 responses)

drag - you got it nailed SuSE, why didn't I think of that? It so obvious! And MS will not sue you, either. Such a winning combination, a company that has made all the right moves. Brilliant. Like CNN a company you can Trust.

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 14, 2007 1:22 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (3 responses)

Novell f-d up with the Microsoft deal doesn't realy change what would be the best choice for Dell to use.

Dell doesn't care.

If I was running my own company I'd use Debian because Ubuntu is going to start shipping propriatory drivers soon (probably the release after next) and I dislike that quite a bit.

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 14, 2007 16:13 UTC (Wed) by TxtEdMacs (guest, #5983) [Link] (2 responses)

OK, a serious reply:

I think you are mistaken by taking the present situation and projecting it as holding. For instance, Novell (remember the name?) is still big installation oriented. As for proprietary add ons, what makes you certain they will not follow the same path, because of Open SuSE? Remember too their desktop is aimed at the enterprise (whatever that clichéd word means). So SuSE? Maybe.

[Admission, I did not respond to the Dell survey nor will I, because I assemble my own machines (and I will do the same when laptop components become available). Moreover, I think relying upon a top tier OEM is a mistake for Linux.]

Ubuntu has a core that could bulk up to provide support on contract quickly and it is more attuned to the individual user. Regarding an unencumbered free version, that is the Ubuntu base installation. Afterward the user is allowed to decide what they want to add. In Dell's case, should they pursue a Linux box product line, they can contract for the version they think works and sells. Like Linspire they may pay for a set of drivers, etc.

Finally, however, I doubt Dell's sincerity pertaining to the survey. Furthermore, I doubt Dell sticking their toe, oh so gingerly, into the Linux market is to the longer term good. Whatever distribution might be chosen and offered for sale to those lacking the time, desire, or whatever is required to have a working Linux computer. I think it is too likely that Dell will conclude that the Linux market it too small to support only to exit promptly and noisily. Such a scenario will confirm deep seated beliefs and be to the determent of a worthy goal.

I would much rather see a more organic, bottom up growing of Linux box assemblers offering support via a consortium of Linux Distributions(and other interested parties). The latter should also be part of a validating group of the O.E.M.s and provide sales leads to the latter.

Who knows, it might be the top tier that then fades away or there is a reordering ... I have more ideas on this topic, but I plan to write this up later so I will bore you no further.

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 14, 2007 19:04 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

*shrug*

I donno.

I am just looking at the requirements that people have for the average business desktop system and the distribution that would be the logical choice for fuffilling those requirements given existing realities and limitations.

For myself I'd buy a laptop if it had good Free software driver support since I will install my own distribution fairly quickly. As long as it's open and well supported properly by the actual Linux kernel then ultimately the distribution is pretty irrelevent unless your looking for official support.

Right now System76 is the most likely candidate for my $$.

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 16, 2007 22:40 UTC (Fri) by vonbrand (guest, #4458) [Link]

Dell is currently offering systems with Red Hat Enterprise Linux preinstalled. Granted, the large servers, but still.

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 14, 2007 1:10 UTC (Wed) by wagadog (guest, #36995) [Link] (2 responses)

Oh, great advice coming from someone who's never been "in the business world" much less ever owned and run a business.

Not to name names, Tim, but I observed one nontenured college teacher try to convert a dozen machines in his computational biology lab to three different distros in three years, only to repeatedly break all of his own systems and simulation software ( and matlab and maple and ESRI licenses) each time, then have to bring in a Linux support person to get things running again -- while assigning development projects to college students. He then tried to blame the staff member for what the students failed to get done -- when the grant ran dry. But, having over twenty-five years of programming experience, the prior ten doing Linux development and systems support in this "cannot grok the idea" commercial world, the staff member knew from politics and of course documented every support request, project assignment and real progress in response -- in writing. She simply showed it to the administration when push came to shove...in addition to copies of the letters and Wiki entries (which he'd tried to delete on her) where he formally assigned the development projects to male undergraduates, and not her.

So this short, balding nebbish college teacher--having made an absolute ass of himself to the administration, and quite possibly having committed a n EEOC violation--then tries accusing the staff member (behind her back) of being "obsessed" with him. This laughable bullying narcissism, when it got back to her, prompted the staff member to simply go back to doing Linux software development in "the business world. *Sigh*" She certainly does make a lot more money than Professor Narcissus -- as has always has her (much taller, much smarter, much blonder, much better-looking and AFAICT much, much more interesting) husband -- a veteran of starting, running and selling several successful internationally-based software development business ventures, and currently a very highly compensated consultant.

The two commercial software R & D projects the ex-support staffer has done, in fewer than 300 days back in the real world are on RedHat, because they're sold to an industrial customer base which has been standardized on RedHat for over a decade (before that was Solaris). RedHat , so the stuff her customers' businesses depend on will continue to just work. Compare that with the "brillance" of Professor Narcissus at Cow College breaking all his own lab software by switching distros three times in three years on more than a dozen machines.

We're not sure why he does it -- maybe so he can pretend to be some kind of Linux expert. But if he's so smart, ya gotta wonder: why ain't he rich?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 14, 2007 13:18 UTC (Wed) by tkeitt (guest, #34685) [Link]

Hi Cheryl! :-)

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 14, 2007 20:37 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Smart people are generally rich?!

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 13, 2007 17:41 UTC (Tue) by emkey (guest, #144) [Link] (16 responses)

Is impossible. The best compromise though might be two choices. One "pure" choice like Debian or Fedora and another that includes all the drivers needed to fully utilize the hardware.

Of course there would no doubt be exclamations of anger and negativity from certain circles if Dell shipped a product that businesses and people like me want. But as I've already said, you can't please everyone.

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 13, 2007 18:58 UTC (Tue) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link]

But as I've already said, you can't please everyone.

That's the rest of the world. Over here, it's "you can't please anyone." :-|

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 14, 2007 0:03 UTC (Wed) by ewan (guest, #5533) [Link] (14 responses)

I think you're rather missing the point that Dell are a hardware
supplier. If they want to supply their hardware with Free software they
can make sure their hardware works with Free software.

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 14, 2007 0:16 UTC (Wed) by emkey (guest, #144) [Link] (13 responses)

Thats a nice ideal, but not realistic. I want the latest video cards for instance and I expect them to be fully functional. If I can't get that I'll just buy the same laptop with Windows. I'm far from alone in this opinion.

Dell is a business. They need to satisfy the needs of their customers. The hard core "OSS or die!" camp is a very small minority of the world. I have no objection to Dell providing for people who fit in that camp but if they are smart they'll also provide for the majority of potential customers.

As I've noted here before, what I care about is realistic alternatives to windows. For many applications a crippled Linux distribution is not a realistic alternative to Windows.

I wish the "OSS or die!" camp would spend more time working to eliminate software patents and DRM and less time telling me what I should believe and how I should live my life.

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 14, 2007 1:06 UTC (Wed) by ewan (guest, #5533) [Link] (6 responses)

I don't see anyone here telling you how to run your life - if you're
happy running a proprietary system that's fine, run one. Some of us want
the technical and other advantages that come through having a system
that's Free, and it only seems good sense to let a potential supplier
know that.

In my experience what cripples a Linux system isn't having Free drivers
integrated into the standard system - it's having things break when 3rd
party binary ones get out of sync.

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 14, 2007 1:15 UTC (Wed) by emkey (guest, #144) [Link] (5 responses)

So you are perfectly fine with Dell supporting a Linux distro that includes non OSS components?

As for the binary driver issue, I find a fair amount of the trouble is caused by the portion of the community that is openly hostile to them and work in various ways against binary only code. Frankly I'm amazed things work as well as they do all things considered.

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 14, 2007 1:47 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (4 responses)

Well there is a good reason why Kernel developers avoid supporting binary-only drivers.

Also there is a very good reason why companies like Redhat won't support machines running binary drivers also.

If Dell was to ask my opinion I'd tell them to steer clear of any and all binary drivers if humanly possible. No ndswrapper hacks, no binary blob'd wireless, no fake-raid drivers, no propriatory 3d video drivers.

The only exception would probably be Nvidia for graphical workstations, and that's only because you have absolutely no choice if you want high performance 3d graphics.

This is because it will just raise support costs and especially Dell would not be able to assist end users if you have bugs in those drivers or devices.

For example you can get good-enough 3d performance out of a onboard Intel 945g chipset. Full Sata support, even with NCQ. Gigabit network, surround sound speakers. And for laptops you should be able to get very good wireless support and very good sleep support with good battery life.

If at any time there is bugs in your hardware or your having stability issues with a paticular driver it's not a big thing to work with kernel developers, X.org developers, and Intel to get the situation quickly resolved so that you can supply replacement drivers easily for any buggy ones that the distribution may ship with by default.

(for desktops, TV out (even HD), DVI, and even Dual DVI can be taken care of through a ADD2 card. If you have trouble getting something to work, then X.org developers and Intel treat that seriously)

With ATI or Nvidia or anybody else any problems you have with Linux and chipsets will be put on the back burner and will never get the same level of support or treatment from them as if it was a Windows issue and it probably can take upwards to months to get a issue resolved.

So if it's your job to have thousands of machines, some with some unique uses and configurations, to support then Open Source would be the best way to go when it comes to Linux.

That's what I figure, at least.

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 14, 2007 1:56 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Oh and if anybody is curious about the dual DVI for Intel 9xx onboard...
This one:
http://www.wintecind.com/pegasus.htm

There are 2 versions, a low profile that uses a Y splitter to provide dual DVI out and then a full-height model that has 2 regular DVI out.

I don't know how well they work or what you have to do to tell the Intel driver there is two monitors or anything like that. (I would like to know, personally)

Here is a wiki page on the subject.
http://wiki.x.org/wiki/SDVOADD2Cards

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 14, 2007 2:08 UTC (Wed) by emkey (guest, #144) [Link] (2 responses)

<quote>
This is because it will just raise support costs and especially Dell
would not be able to assist end users if you have bugs in those drivers
or devices.
</quote>

Dell already lives in the world of binary only drivers. They know it well and seem to do just fine. In fact they are large enough that I suspect in many cases they have NDA with vendors and access to source code. At the very least they have a lot of leverage. Meaning they probably could in fact get those bugs fixed.

Look, I don't like binary only drivers either. They are not going away any time soon however and they are an evil I'll live with given the alternative.

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 14, 2007 3:18 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (1 responses)

The only binary driver you have to put with on modern hardware nowadays is Nvidia driver if you want high performance 3d graphics.

For everything else there is perfectly good hardware with perfectly good Free software drivers.

If your building a PC to run Linux there is now _zero_ need for any sort of binary only driver, with the one exception I stated above.

As far as I am concerned the need to support binary drivers is almost obsolete. The _only_ reason you need them is if you have users that are previous Windows users and you want to try to get them to migrate them away from Windows and onto Linux. (which is a pretty decent excuse)

This is obviously not a concern for Dell since they will be picking the hardware specificly for Linux compatability.

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 14, 2007 3:28 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

PS. I am talking about PC hardware, btw, not nessicarially all hardware in general for all purposes.

I understand there may be a lot of specialized hardware devices to which their are no alternatives for that can be very problematic for the whole 'lets purge binary-only drivers from our life' concept.

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 14, 2007 2:29 UTC (Wed) by Zack (guest, #37335) [Link] (5 responses)

>I wish the "OSS or die!" camp would spend more time working to eliminate software patents and DRM and less time telling me what I should believe and how I should live my life.

And I wish some people would use less inflammatory language and forgo setting up strawmen. Looks like we both can't always have what we want.

Dell asks (potential) customers what they would like in a potential GNU/Linux machine in a survey. They are able to selectively pick hardware that run with free drivers if there is enough demand. It's a good opportunity to lobby for that, especially since they make laptops, and one can't just replace the parts for that afterwards.

How giving a business that asks for it your opinion boils down to "telling me what I should believe and how I should live my life" I fail to see.

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 14, 2007 3:02 UTC (Wed) by emkey (guest, #144) [Link] (4 responses)

Sorry, but I'm very tired of the "OSS only/binary drivers are evil" camp. And it isn't because I'm unsympathetic to the basic premise. Get rid of software patents and DRM and binary drivers will be far easier to get rid of. For now, attacking binary drivers is focusing a lot of counter productive effort in the wrong place.

Asking DELL to design and market an OSS only laptop is a potentially significant added expense for a product that will almost certainly be inferior from a technical perspective.

Lets get them to ship and support some version(s) of Linux. There is a huge potential for positive movement on a lot of fronts if they do.

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 14, 2007 10:45 UTC (Wed) by ewan (guest, #5533) [Link] (3 responses)

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that there's a lot of
important hardware around that is only supported by binary drivers. There
isn't. As others have noted about the only serious sticking point remains
the nVidia driver, and that's not relevant for a lot of systems.

While there are wireless cards, RAID cards, and even the occasional
ethernet card that require binary drivers, there are perfectly good
alternatives that don't. All everyone's suggesting is that Dell pick
those alternatives.

This isn't all about idealism either; there's some of that, I'm sure, but
there's also the simple practical problem that you can't get commercial
support from (e.g.) RedHat for a system loaded with binary drivers. For
anyone that wants to run a system with such support Free drivers are an
absolute necessity and Dell will lose those users' business if they don't
come up with the goods.

As for laptops, I've got a shiny new ThinkPad, and everything (with the
possible exception of the modem, but I can't say I know or care) is
supported by Free drivers. It's not difficult, much less impossible.

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 14, 2007 14:36 UTC (Wed) by emkey (guest, #144) [Link] (2 responses)

As I've already said, DELL can and does support binary drivers on Windows, so I don't see support of such drivers in Linux as a problem. And frankly RedHat is big enough that they could support them as well if they so chose.

It is my impression that full support of modern 3D hardware does not exist in free drivers. IE, ATI & NVidia. I haven't looked closely at this in awhile and could be wrong. With the continued growth of DRM related laws and standards don't assume this will ever change or that the tide won't turn back in favor of binary drivers. I'd REALLY hate to see that happen personally which is why I don't think obsessing about binary drivers at the OS end of things is correct. Removing the motivators/requirements for them up stream is where the vast majority of the effort should be focused.

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 14, 2007 14:43 UTC (Wed) by emkey (guest, #144) [Link] (1 responses)

Two other points, I don't have any objections to people pushing vendors for free drivers or specifications. What annoys and frustrates me is people vilifying vendors who provide only binary drivers. Support for Linux in any form is the first step. Encouraging vendors to go the full way to an OSS driver is great but there are very real and growing reasons why that course of action is non trivial.

Second, victory will come through binary drivers being a zero issue. IE, none being needed regardless of the hardware in question. Victory will not come by trying to eliminate the choice of binary drivers at the kernel end.

Pleasing everyone...

Posted Mar 14, 2007 18:43 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Of course, running 99% free software is better than running 0%.

But a significant part of the advantages of free software are lost (wholesale) when running binary drivers. Ease of distribution without licensing worries, ease of support, vendor independence, accountability, stability, and the ability to reproduce your system are important points that are partially lost with that simple 1% -- even worse if that 1% is in the kernel.

Do you think people will recognize that the remaining proprietary software is responsible for their troubles, or just blame and disregard free software altogether? I fear that "Linux" (i.e. Ubuntu Linux, RHEL or whatever) will be the scapegoats.

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 13, 2007 17:51 UTC (Tue) by captrb (guest, #2291) [Link]

At this point, the only Dell system I'd like would be an HP or IBM. Compared to other large vendors, I haven't been particularly impressed with their gear and I'm certainly unimpressed with the public handwringing over OSS support, especially when I see so many data centers crammed with Dell servers already running Linux and OSS. Maybe they don't deserve the business, eh?

No Debian ?

Posted Mar 13, 2007 18:11 UTC (Tue) by mikov (guest, #33179) [Link] (6 responses)

I find it interesting that Debian wasn't in the available distribution choices. I wonder whether Dell thinks that it would be more difficult for them to support Debian rather than Fedora, or that almost nobody uses Debian, or finally that Ubunty is the same as Debian ?

No Debian ?

Posted Mar 14, 2007 3:29 UTC (Wed) by mdomsch (subscriber, #5920) [Link] (5 responses)

We could have listed every Linux distribution out there in the survey. We specifically asked about the ones that seemed to garner the most attention in the DellIdeaStorm.com web site over the last few weeks, while leaving open an "Other" option which will get counted too. The list wasn't meant to slight any distribution, but when the first draft had like 30 different ones on the list, at that point, any one we left out *would* feel slighted. And several of those I hadn't heard of either. :-)
-Matt

No Debian ?

Posted Mar 14, 2007 10:08 UTC (Wed) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link]

Yeah. But PLEASE take note of the overwhelming mainidea in the comments to the BLOG, 75% of the hundreds of people who have commented there say precisely the same thing (in different words):

Which particular distro you choose is completely secondary. Availability of linux-drivers (preferably free ones) is the important thing. Once that is taken care of, any and all Linux-distros will work anyway, and we are (those of us who care anyway) capable of reinstalling anyway.

I'd buy a perfectly naked Dell-laptop with a small sticker on the package that says: "Hardware has GPL-drivers", I need nothing more.

In a pinch, I'd even take it *without* the drivers, if the programming-info needed to *write* the drivers is openly available. We'll even take care of that part ourselves, if we're just allowed to.

No Debian ?

Posted Mar 14, 2007 18:50 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (1 responses)

I have a second-hand Dell Latitude running Debian like a charm; with its 128 MB of RAM even Ubuntu was out of bounds (iceWM rocks). But it took me a few days to configure the thing and recompile the kernel with APM support, since ACPI is not working properly.

Fully-configured Debian would be a godsend, but just fully-working whatever-libre-distro would be great.

No Debian ?

Posted Mar 14, 2007 21:05 UTC (Wed) by pfavr (guest, #38205) [Link]

I'm running Debian on all my systems.

I agree with the things said about open driver support being the most important.

Furthermore it would be nice if Dell provided a "recommended" kernel .config for each and every system.

Or just a way for us customers to share the working configs with each other (e.g. it took me some time initially to get XFree working with my 24" Dell TFT in 1920x1200).

Dell: please use and support the community, we already buy your systems and configure them anyway.

BTW: I have successfully remote updated (through Internet) the bios in >40 Dell systems all running Debian. Really nice that Dell has provided kernel support for doing this.

No Debian ?

Posted Mar 14, 2007 19:20 UTC (Wed) by mikov (guest, #33179) [Link] (1 responses)

Well, I personally agree with what seems to majority opinion here - I don't need a pre-installed distribution, as long as the hardware is certified to work with Linux, say with a certain "vanilla" kernel version.

I think it would be a mistake to offer pre-installed community distributions. It is just silly. People who use them prefer to install and configure the OS themselves. (Alhough I jave to admit that emotionally I would love a pre-installed Debian :-).

So, that really leaves only Ubuntu and SUSE, I think (unless RedHat shows some interest in the desktop).

On the subject of GPL drivers I tend to think that small steps are better than none at all. It would be a giant win to have pre-installed Dell PC with any Linux, even with some binary drivers.

No Debian ?

Posted Mar 15, 2007 14:57 UTC (Thu) by pbardet (guest, #22762) [Link]

There could be Linspire. It's not part of their choices, but some people may suggest it. I never tried it myself (so don't shoot me), but it seems to be popular among new users switching from windows.

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Posted Mar 15, 2007 16:17 UTC (Thu) by terminator (guest, #2292) [Link]

No specific distribution is needed. What I want is that all devices in the Dell box must have native Linux device drivers.

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

How Dell can help you with driver support.

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Aunts and computers

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

Pleasing everyone...

Pleasing everyone...

Pleasing everyone...

Pleasing everyone...

Pleasing everyone...

Pleasing everyone...

Pleasing everyone...

Pleasing everyone...

Pleasing everyone...

Pleasing everyone...

Pleasing everyone...

Pleasing everyone...

Pleasing everyone...

Pleasing everyone...

Pleasing everyone...

Pleasing everyone...

Pleasing everyone...

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?

No Debian ?

No Debian ?

No Debian ?

No Debian ?

No Debian ?

No Debian ?

No Debian ?

Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?