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Patent Fights Are a Legacy of MP3's Tangled Origins (NYTimes)

The New York Times has an article on MP3 patents. "Microsoft says it was doing the right thing: paying a German rights holder $16 million to license the MP3 audio format, the foundation of the digital music boom. Then an American jury ruled that Microsoft had failed to pay another MP3 patent holder, and slapped it with a $1.52 billion judgment. But the MP3 toll gates do not end there." (Thanks to petelink)

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Patent Fights Are a Legacy of MP3's Tangled Origins (NYTimes)

Posted Mar 6, 2007 18:41 UTC (Tue) by JoeBuck (guest, #2330) [Link] (4 responses)

Microsoft thought it had the necessary licenses for MP3, and the courts found otherwise. Is Fluendo in the same boat?

Patent Fights Are a Legacy of MP3's Tangled Origins (NYTimes)

Posted Mar 6, 2007 20:56 UTC (Tue) by gravious (guest, #7662) [Link] (3 responses)

Not knowing a clue about what Fluendo have licensed I will nevertheless confidently go on the record as saying "yes" giving the legal ownership minefield that article surveys. Let us hope Gstreamer .10 is not blown up in the process. I would welcome any knowledgeable rebuttals so as they don't call my intelligence in general into question.

Patent Fights Are a Legacy of MP3's Tangled Origins (NYTimes)

Posted Mar 6, 2007 23:31 UTC (Tue) by JoeBuck (guest, #2330) [Link] (2 responses)

Their MP3 codec is a separate product; if it is found legally risky then this has no impact on the rest of gstreamer (which doesn't do MP3).

Patent Fights Are a Legacy of MP3's Tangled Origins (NYTimes)

Posted Mar 7, 2007 2:26 UTC (Wed) by louie (guest, #3285) [Link] (1 responses)

It also depends on where the patents are registered and whether or not they are valid in Spain, as Fluendo is not a US company and (AFAIK) has no US assets.

Patent Fights Are a Legacy of MP3's Tangled Origins (NYTimes)

Posted Mar 8, 2007 0:31 UTC (Thu) by JoeBuck (guest, #2330) [Link]

What you're missing is that Fluendo has a product specifically designed to be sold to people in the US, that claims to be a licensed MP3 codec. So they are affected.

How many ten-digit dollar fines does is take ...

Posted Mar 6, 2007 20:53 UTC (Tue) by proski (guest, #104) [Link] (6 responses)

... until Microsoft starts opposing software patents?

How many ten-digit dollar fines does is take ...

Posted Mar 6, 2007 22:44 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (5 responses)

They are already arguing in the supreme court on this paticular mp3-ness.

The Freedom Software Law center (chaired by Eblen Moglen) filed a motion with the supreme court siding with Microsoft on this issue.

http://www.softwarefreedom.org/news/20061215a.html
""In the case Microsoft v. AT&T, the Supreme Court will decide whether U.S. patents can apply to software that is copied and distributed overseas. The Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, a specialized patent court known for allowing patents on software and business methods, originally decided in favor of AT&T, expanding the international reach of U.S. software patents. Microsoft appealed, and the Supreme Court agreed to hear the case.""

How many ten-digit dollar fines does is take ...

Posted Mar 6, 2007 22:47 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

oops.. Eben not Eblen

How many ten-digit dollar fines does is take ...

Posted Mar 7, 2007 19:32 UTC (Wed) by proski (guest, #104) [Link] (3 responses)

Mind you, there is a huge difference between "we did nothing wrong in this case" and "software patents should be abolished".

How many ten-digit dollar fines does is take ...

Posted Mar 7, 2007 22:20 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (2 responses)

Doesn't matter to me.

Software patents are wrong, therefore trying to get out of paying for them isn't wrong. Getting caught and having to pay fines is the price you have to pay for that sort of attitude, unfortunately.

The only thing that Microsoft does wrong here is be two-faced about it. If they came out and gave a strong anti- software patent stance then that would be one thing, but they like software patents when they apply to competitors and not to themselves. So that is wrong.

Personally I hope Microsoft wins this one.

How many ten-digit dollar fines does is take ...

Posted Mar 8, 2007 4:54 UTC (Thu) by proski (guest, #104) [Link]

Either you misread my comment or you are contradicting yourself. First you say that the difference between protecting oneself in court and trying to change the law and protect everybody doesn't matter to you. And then you are saying that it's "the only thing that Microsoft does wrong here", thus showing that it probably matters for you enough to comment on it.

Best of Both Worlds

Posted Mar 8, 2007 7:01 UTC (Thu) by jd (guest, #26381) [Link]

(Please imagine all IANAL and other standard disclaimers to exist above this line)

Ideally, the courts will rule that patenting software (regardless of whether it is national or international) is an unacceptable practice and abolish them, but rule that the abolition is not retroactive and that Microsoft still has to pay the fine.

This is a company that illegally foistered its music solutions on the world - according to EU antitrust laws - and which has used every trick in the book to comply with the letter of the law whilst continuing its anti-competitive action. It is also a company that has been found guilty of copyright violations and other forms of code theft in the past.

In all probability, had the illegal tying not occurred, it is less clear Microsoft would have lost and even if they had, the fine would likely have been a fraction of the amount awarded. Likewise, had Microsoft not been a convicted serial violator when it came to respecting other people's code, the courts would likely have been far more believing of Microsoft's defense.

Microsoft may or may not have done something wrong from a strict patent perspective, but that's not the point. Software patents are blatantly unacceptable, but that's also not the point. Microsoft has, by its own hand, convinced too many people that it should not be given the benefit of the doubt, by abusing that trust and by manipulating the system for all it is worth.

Based on past behavior - which the judiciary is entitled to consider - Microsoft may well have honestly believed this to be a far more serious violation than mere technicality and was relying on that fact to gain an unfair advantage. The judiciary is also entitled to weigh the fact that Microsoft is not any ordinary company but has been ruled a monopoly. This seriously changes the rules of the game. It is unclear to me if either of these played any significant (or indeed any) role in the case, but it would not shock me. The penalty is simply too great to be just a random amount imposed on a rich but "normal" corporation.

Can the judges rule, though, that software patents should be abolished but NOT touch the fine? Sure, if the appeals court rules that the fine is to do with it being a technical violation by a convicted monopolist. It's then still a technical violation, no matter what the future status of software patents is, so I don't see how it would matter if the court also struck down such patents. I think it would also matter if Microsoft were seen to be purposefully violating the law with the intent of gaining an unfair advantage, because again that advantage would persist whether software patents continued or not.

(A marginally better outcome would be all of the above, with Congress then ordering a systematic, comprehensive review of all live patents to expunge all that are blatantly stupid, illegal or invalid and should never have been granted by anyone with enough brain cells to remain upright.)

Elephant in the room

Posted Mar 7, 2007 7:15 UTC (Wed) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link] (1 responses)

This issue of many patent-holders on mp3 has been studiously ignored by pretty much all players in the industry for around a decade. Unfortunately in the patent world, wishing and looking the other way isn't good enough, and the problem has only become entrenched.

Any organization with deep pockets who got involved with mp3 anyway either does not listen well enough to their own lawyers, or needs better lawyers. Indivuduals who plugged their ears and said "mp3 is out there, it can never be taken away" only entrenched the problem.

Media rights matter; content control and openness matter. Avoid formats with landmines embedded. This applies to Micorsoft as much as it does to you. Yeah software patents are terrible, but with this level of willful ignorance, you don't need software patents to land everyone in this much trouble.

Elephant in the room

Posted Mar 11, 2007 20:54 UTC (Sun) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link]

Except, as an individual -- that is correct.

Mp3 is out there. And it really cannot realistically be "taken away".

I can convert mp3s to wavs on my Linux-machine today, and I'll be able to do the same in 1 year, 5 year or 50 years. Worst come to worst, it's a fairly simple exersize to write a decoder myself, did it twice in two different programing-languages, once as schoolwork, once for fun.

Law is efficient against the few and large with deep pockets. Using law to stop millions of individuals, each of which has small resources ain't very effective. Witness the less-than-stellar success of copyrigth-law at stopping individuals from copying, or the prohibition on alcohol and its sucess (or lack thereof!) in stopping people from brewing up a bit of wine or beer.

I wonder how long all these patents have left to run

Posted Mar 7, 2007 7:42 UTC (Wed) by dwalters (guest, #4207) [Link] (2 responses)

The article points out that a lot of the research into developing the technologies that went into MP3 was done in the 70's and 80's. One would think that if that's the case, many of the patents in question would be quite old now, and possibly nearing their 20 year lifespan.

In any case, the positive thing that could come out of this negative MP3 publicity is that more people and companies take notice of unencumbered formats and codecs (Ogg, Theora, Dirac, etc.).

I wonder how long all these patents have left to run

Posted Mar 7, 2007 16:37 UTC (Wed) by hannada (guest, #4633) [Link] (1 responses)

One would hope that these patents to not lay claim to some of the fundamental concepts used by Ogg Vorbis, but that is difficult for the layperson to determine. It would be a wonder if these particular patents have even been studied in that regard, since they seem to have popped up from nowhere. Given the existence of work from the 70's and 80's, and the recent issue dates of some of these patents, this is surely a prime case for USPTO review.

I wonder how long all these patents have left to run

Posted Mar 7, 2007 22:25 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

If you do not know weither or not a paticular peice of software violates patents, then it's safe to assume that it does.

Especially when it comes to multimedia stuff.

Patent Fights Are a Legacy of MP3's Tangled Origins (NYTimes)

Posted Mar 8, 2007 15:02 UTC (Thu) by ssharkey (guest, #4451) [Link] (3 responses)

It is issues like this that point out exactly why no technology should be allowed to become an "official" standard (ISO, RFC, et al) if it is or can be encumbered by patents. This ought to be a basic rule of thumb: "if you want it to become standardized, you must relinquish all claims of patentability or exclusiveness".

Patent Fights Are a Legacy of MP3's Tangled Origins (NYTimes)

Posted Mar 8, 2007 23:30 UTC (Thu) by smurf (subscriber, #17840) [Link]

The whole tangle is a prime example of how software patents ultimately stifle innovation. But readers here know that already.

The article in question, however, doesn't even want to admit that there really is a problem, much less that there are people who actually try to do something about it instead of, as the last three paragraphs tell, quietly resigning.

Patent Fights Are a Legacy of MP3's Tangled Origins (NYTimes)

Posted Mar 11, 2007 23:42 UTC (Sun) by landley (guest, #6789) [Link] (1 responses)

Except what happens if a third party has a patent on an overlapping
technology?

Arguing to abolish patents is going to take 20 years. Something we could
do in the short term to mitigate the damage is argue for shorter terms for
software patents, and that different categories of patents should have
different durations.

Patents were extended to 20 years for the drug companies, because it can
take over 10 years or more to get a drug through clinical trials and FDA
approval. But in software, that's 13 iterations of Moore's Law and means
that patents on Windows 3.1 were still in force when Vista shipped.
Patents that predate the creation of Linux are still in force today.
That's crazy long in our space, but barely long enough to them.

So I think we should argue that software patents should only last 7 years
(which was the original duration of patents when they were first made law
in the US). Avoid a head-on battle with the pharmaceutical industry and
say this change only applies to _software_, and we're not setting a
precedent for weakening the patent system just adjusting to something sane
for our domain. (And if they want to extend pharmaceuticals in future
that's nicely decoupled from OUR issues.)

I wrote about this at http://www.landley.net/writing/stuff/commodity.html

Rob

Patent Fights Are a Legacy of MP3's Tangled Origins (NYTimes)

Posted Mar 22, 2007 19:01 UTC (Thu) by pimlott (guest, #1535) [Link]

There is a contrary argument that the best thing we could do is get big pharma on our side in the patent debate. Help them realize they're headed down the same path as us, where the the basic research and production techniques are hopelessly encumbered and patent trolls lurk behind every test tube. This could be difficult, but if accomplished reform would come quickly.


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