CAAST and FLOSS - Acronym Wars [LWN.net]

CAAST and FLOSS - Acronym Wars

Posted Dec 19, 2002 19:04 UTC (Thu) by ericbr (guest, #5904)
Parent article: CAAST and FLOSS - Acronym Wars

I was rather amused by your letter. Of the two photo management software packages you mention, one links to a 404 page (flphoto), and the other links to a package that expects the developer to fetch the package from CVS, then compile & build.

If this is the best that open source developers can do, commercial software is in no serious risk.

Mr. Brooks then compares Freshmeat software to commercial software. Freshmeat software is much closer to Win32 shareware in terms of ease of use, documentation, and packaging than even the most piddling commercial package.

Finally - I wish that Mr. Brooks would stop talking down products and services that he clearly does not understand. Most software users neither know nor care how the software gets the job done - it is a tool; a means to an end, nothing more.

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CAAST and FLOSS - Acronym Wars

Posted Dec 20, 2002 11:38 UTC (Fri) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]

> Of the two photo management software packages you mention, one links to
> a 404 page (flphoto), and the other links to a package that expects the
> developer to fetch the package from CVS, then compile & build.

Try GPhoto.

As for the quality of Freshmeat software, Freshmeat was another bad choice.
Most people get their Free Software on a CD from organisations like Debian and Mandrake. Debian GNU/Linux ships with two production quality desktop suites, three office suites (including OpenOffice), the GNU development tool chain, Apache webserver, Sendmail and exim mailservers, and a long list of enjoyable games.

...and all available for the VAT inclusive price of $0 (or 0 euro, 0 yen etc.)

> Most software users neither know nor care how the software gets the
> job done - it is a tool; a means to an end, nothing more.

Ah, the quality lie of proprietary software vendors. The motivation for writing non-Free software is generally to make money. Thus a game begins: How much money can we squeeze out of the user without losing them? How arkward can we make it for the user if they don't upgrade?

On the Free Software side, there is no point in making a program any less usable. The whole point is to make it as enjoyable and functional as possible so that more people can live in a freer society. The person recieving a piece of software is a user, part of the community, not a customer/source-of-money.

You say software is just a tool, Free Software makes useful, Free tools

Ciaran O'Riordan

CAAST and FLOSS - Acronym Wars

Posted Dec 20, 2002 18:20 UTC (Fri) by cdmiller (guest, #2813) [Link]

" Mr. Brooks then compares Freshmeat software to commercial software. Freshmeat software is much closer to Win32 shareware in terms of ease of use, documentation, and packaging than even the most piddling commercial package. "

Hmm,

Freshmeat software happens to include Apache, MySQL, Samba, and OpenOffice.org to select a few high profile names. These and many other FLOSS programs listed on Freshmeat easily outclass all competing commercial packages. Freshmeat appears to be a great place to look for quality software in easy to install formats, and to get a preview of what to expect next. The author of the above comment clearly needs to FLOSS more often.

CAAST and FLOSS - Acronym Wars

Posted Dec 20, 2002 18:41 UTC (Fri) by chohman (guest, #5519) [Link] (5 responses)

I was rather amused by ericbr's post.

The link to flphoto worked fine when I tried it - what can I say. The other project, given that it hasn't been updated since 2000, is probably dormant and is thus arguably not a good example.

By my reading, Leon is observing that with some 80,000 pre-written software packages listed there's a good chance that the user doesn't have to write anything. Check out the listing of packages included with, say, RedHat, before glibly offering that "there's no software available for Linux". If you think that proprietary software is bug free and well supported, I respectfully suggest that you live on a different planet than I do.

I suspect ericbr has not actually tried a current distribution, or if he has, spent his time lamenting how it didn't work/look/feel like Windows, as if this is some ultimate Holy Grail of computer use.

> "First, a large percentage of free, open source software out there
> is Linux-based; it's not products such as a photo management
> software suites," Famulak says.
Is it just me, or this a non-sequiter?

Over my many years of using proprietary, mass-market software I have yet to find one that offers 24/7 support. Hit a web search with an OSS software problem and find solutions. Try the same with Windows, and get 30 people posting how they have that problem, too. YMMV.

CAAST and FLOSS - Acronym Wars

Posted Dec 20, 2002 22:42 UTC (Fri) by ericbr (guest, #5904) [Link] (4 responses)

I am always amused at Linux users who psychoanalyze people they haven't met. For the record, I use Suse Linux 8.0 at home; I have 8.1, but I haven't had the time that it takes to update.

What I lament about Linux is not that it isn't Windows - it is that it is pointlessly inconsistent. I don't mind that it doesn't work like Windows; what I mind is that program A doesn't work like program B. (Simple examples: why do the scrollbars for xman and xinfo *work differently*?)

And since I do run Suse Linux, I can safely say that most of the packages have the worst documentation I have ever seen, and have user interfaces that only a programmer can love. There is rarely a tutorial to be seen. Further, I have had no trouble whatsoever getting programs to crash on SuSE linux, particularly X.

And if Freshmeat software is easy to install, why are there so many articles on 'RPM hell'?

And as for the supposed 24x7 support, it's *at best* email-only. More than half the time, the vaunted web searches point you to fixes for distributions that you don't have, to edit files that don't exist in the location described, or that worked on version 2.0 of the kernel, and haven't been updated since.

I have yet to find *any* product, free or otherwise, that offers real 24x7 support for free. Email is *not* 24x7. Playing 'guess my keywords' on a web search is *not* 24x7.

(Incidentally, I tried the flphoto link, and it appears to be back up. All I have to say is that I am *significantly* unimpressed - it looks like any number of shareware photo-editors on Win32, with a complete lack of features, and no integration with anything more powerful.)

CAAST and FLOSS - Acronym Wars

Posted Dec 21, 2002 1:23 UTC (Sat) by cdmiller (guest, #2813) [Link] (3 responses)

> "it is that it is pointlessly inconsistent. ... program A doesn't work like program B"

One can choose to only use products which fit a particular desktop style, and then you will get consistancy in your programs.

I for one, like different interfaces for different programs. Why should a file manager have the same interface as a word processor or an image manipulator or a text editor for instance?

>" I can safely say that most of the packages have the worst documentation I have ever seen, ... There is rarely a tutorial to be seen"

Try http://www.tldp.org/docs.html Further, for a business or a programmer the source code is documentation like no other. The source code contains more complete documentation and freedom than any proprietary software.

>"if Freshmeat software is easy to install, why are there so many articles on 'RPM hell'?"

Fair enough, you can get dependency problems with RPM's, just like old windows DLL version collisions. There are distro's who specialize in solving package dependency problems however. Try one on for size.

> I am *significantly* unimpressed - it looks like any number of shareware photo-editors on Win32

Haven't looked at flphoto link, if you want it to be better, make some feature requests and bug reports to the developer(s). Or since you are complaining about it, if it really bothers you, fix it yourself. You do have the source code... You have looked up the meaning of free software, right?

It is tempting to psychoanalyze someone who appears to want something for nothing. Unfortunately it looks like the "something" turns out to be the knowledge to better use a Linux system. The learning curve will always exist for folks wanting to go beyond a certain point with a Linux or Windows desktop. I still have a bumper sticker that reads, "Linux, for IQ's over 98".

CAAST and FLOSS - Acronym Wars

Posted Dec 31, 2002 23:35 UTC (Tue) by ericbr (guest, #5904) [Link] (2 responses)

Wow. What an amazing set of non-answers. How typical of a Linux fan - when the questions get too hard to answer, change the subject. (And, by the way, thanks for the psychoanalysis - again, so typical of a Linux fan. <sarcasm>Your genius is overwhelming. </sarcasm>)

Again, why do various linux programs not even manage to make the SCROLLBARS work consistently? These are the basic DOCUMENTATION BROWSERS, for crying out loud. If Microsoft shipped programs that were this inconsistent, you would be up in arms about it - and rightly so.

Also - perhaps you haven't noticed this, but SOURCE CODE is NOT documentation. If I want to figure out how to open a file, I'm sure as hell not going to start a text editor to browse through a couple megabytes of OpenOffice source code. And I'm a programmer - source code isn't going to help non-programmers.

As for RPMs - can you name some of these distributions that solve the dependency problem? Do they work with third-party RPMs (e.g., from oh, say, FreshMeat, since that's where this whole discussion started in the first place)?

As for flphoto, my point was that 1) it was described as a photo-management suite, and 2) as a photo-management suite, it left a lot to be desired. Win32 programs like (say) ThumbsPlus, which I wouldn't really describe as a sophisticated photo-management program, are far more sophisticated than flphoto appears to be. Therefore, I'm not terribly interested in *using* flphoto, much less *improving* it.

Linux - for people without a life.

CAAST and FLOSS - Acronym Wars

Posted Jan 2, 2003 18:48 UTC (Thu) by cdmiller (guest, #2813) [Link] (1 responses)

Hmm, lets keep this simple...

> Your genius is overwhelming.

Thanks.

> why do various linux programs not even manage to make the SCROLLBARS work consistently?

Freedom of choice. Choose consistency if you wish.

> SOURCE CODE is NOT documentation

Much documentation exists. Source code is the ultimate documentation providing complete ownership and control of a product.

> can you name some of these distributions that solve the dependency problem

Try Connectiva. Try using the SRPM files from Freshmeat.
For more rigorous dependency checking try Debian.

> I'm not terribly interested in *using* flphoto, much less *improving* it.

Then you are stuck with your "ThumbsPlus" under WINE forever, enjoy.

> Linux - for people without a life.

Windows - for sheep without brains.

CAAST and FLOSS - Acronym Wars

Posted Jan 2, 2003 20:39 UTC (Thu) by ericbr (guest, #5904) [Link]

This link from Robert Bruce Thompson expresses my final opinion much better (and with fewer insults) than I seem to have been able to. Perhaps this will get my point across.