Ian Murdock on the Debian Core Consortium and Ubuntu Foundation (ZDNet) [LWN.net]

ZDNet talks with Ian Murdock about the Debian Core Consortium and Ubuntu. "Debian is increasingly just another upstream source for [Ubuntu]. Personally, I think this is a huge mistake on their part-sure, they have lots of momentum, but that's largely because Debian seemed to be faltering for a little while. But now that sarge is out there, the real momentum is behind Debian again, though Ubuntu still has momentum on the desktop side. If I were them, I'd continue focusing on that. I certainly wouldn't be so eager to unhook from the Debian train just yet."

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getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum

Posted Jul 13, 2005 21:36 UTC (Wed) by louie (guest, #3285) [Link] (17 responses)

Ian, 'we managed to make a release' != 'we now have all the momentum.' I really do want Debian to succeed, and I do agree that it would be healthiest for all involved for Ubuntu to be a very, very minimal changeset from Debian, but Ian... don't get full of yourself just because you managed to get a release out, and because maybe you might have for a short time convinced Mandriva to get on board. The big boys- the ones you want to compete against- do releases all the time. Talk to me when Debian has done another release, and done it in, say, 18 months, and maybe defaults to a kernel released within the past two years, and then maybe we can talk about momentum.

getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum

Posted Jul 13, 2005 21:48 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

especially with the goals of the next release to remove all the non-free documentation etc from the base repository and splitting the arch's between first class and second class support (and see how much help you continue to get from people after telling them that you consider them second class)

I too hope that debian is back on track and can suceed, but they are recovering from a train wreck and are placeing significant obstacles ahead of themselves makeing it harder to get back up to speed.

getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum

Posted Jul 13, 2005 22:51 UTC (Wed) by ikm (guest, #493) [Link] (10 responses)

> don't get full of yourself just because you managed to get a release out,

As I understand it, it is not about 'managing to get a release out', but rather about not feeling encumbered by the upcoming release anymore. Since sarge is out, nothing holds Debian people from switching to gcc 4.0 (which they are doing right now), switching to xorg instead of xfree43, and generally doing all other sorts of exciting things.

getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum

Posted Jul 13, 2005 23:18 UTC (Wed) by louie (guest, #3285) [Link] (9 responses)

But the distros he is comparing himself to don't have to wait 3-4 years to upgrade X and the kernel and gcc. That's the kicker, really- upgrading X shouldn't qualify as 'exciting', or as momentum- it should be something dull and mostly unnoticed that happens quickly and reliably every time there is an X release. For the distro Ian wants to be, infrastructure is boring and features are exciting. Things like a graphical installer, or great laptop support- those are exciting and indicate momentum.

It is, IMHO, crucially important to Free Software that the community can create GNU/Linux distros that the community legitimately owns and controls, and have high ideals that push the rest of us along. If we're dependent on RH/Novell to have a working operating system, we're in trouble. So I hope Debian catches up- but Ian's comments, to me, make it seem like he doesn't even understand how far behind Debian is, which isn't hopeful.

getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum

Posted Jul 14, 2005 2:57 UTC (Thu) by rqosa (subscriber, #24136) [Link] (2 responses)

> Things like a graphical installer [...] are exciting and indicate momentum.

Why is it so important that the installer be graphical?

I'll admit that Debian's previous installer ("boot-floppies") was inferior to others at the time Woody was released, but that was mostly because 1) it didn't autodetect hardware, and 2) it just didn't do many configuration tasks, leaving them to be done by the user after rebooting. The new installer ("debian-installer"), however, is probably the best one in any of the major distros (IMO).

Wildly Misquoting others (tsk tsk)! (getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum)

Posted Jul 14, 2005 18:46 UTC (Thu) by carpus (guest, #30991) [Link] (1 responses)

> > Things like a graphical installer [...] are exciting and indicate
momentum.

Wow! How did "graphical installer" get put in there, buddy? A little
hot on that topic? Nobody mentioned it before you!

But since we're there, I'll bite. There's nothing wrong with the debian
installer. It's quite functional. GUIs leave a better flavor on the
palate of the vast majority of people. Power: text, Grace: GUI

But you might not want to misquote people so heinously. It tends to piss
them off.

Wildly Misquoting others (tsk tsk)! (getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum)

Posted Jul 14, 2005 19:00 UTC (Thu) by rqosa (subscriber, #24136) [Link]

I didn't misquote. Look at the last sentence of the first paragraph in the parent post; it says:

> Things like a graphical installer, or great laptop support- those are exciting and indicate momentum.

getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum

Posted Jul 14, 2005 9:19 UTC (Thu) by ikm (guest, #493) [Link]

> But the distros he is comparing himself to don't have to wait 3-4 years to upgrade X and the kernel and gcc.

Yep -- and refining the release cycle, so that there would be no need to wait 3-4 years anymore, is another exciting thing for the Debian project to do :)

> It is, IMHO, crucially important to Free Software that the community can create GNU/Linux distros that the community legitimately owns and controls, and have high ideals that push the rest of us along. If we're dependent on RH/Novell to have a working operating system, we're in trouble.

I wholeheartedly agree.

getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum

Posted Jul 14, 2005 14:18 UTC (Thu) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link]

> Things like a graphical installer, or great laptop support- those are exciting and indicate momentum.

No, please, lets not have a graphical installer. At least not as the default.

The new installer is a vast improvement over the old boot-floppies installer, and is functionally on par with most graphical installers.

getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum

Posted Jul 14, 2005 18:15 UTC (Thu) by jstAusr (guest, #27224) [Link] (3 responses)

The goals of the Debian project have more to do with quality than releasing often. Ubuntu has a goal to release often that seems to be something that is important to you, but it is not always desirable. Ian seems to be concerned with the compatibility of the projects and that is an important consideration. Compatibility is something that Mark should and probably is concerned about as well. The best outcome for both projects is if they can work together.

You, on the other hand, seem to be rubbing two stick together, in an attempt to make a fire. That won't help either project. Is that your intention? The Debian project is being developed by people and businesses that contribute their time and resources freely. Ubuntu is being developed partly because Mark wants to help people. Both projects are interested in providing tools that can make life better for their users.

I've needed the installer once for each computer I have setup. That generally takes around 30 minutes, I really see no difference if it is graphical or not. The new X is better than the old X, but the old X still works great. Now the newer kernels are interesting, but installing a new one is trivial. Laptop support can be a problem at times, but the user can help there by purchasing compatible hardware and letting the hardware companies know that they want to be able to use quality software.

As a user I feel that I need to take some of the responsibility, instead of just complaining about every little thing. Don't you? Debian could release more often if you help. If you don't want to help you have no reason to complain.

getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum

Posted Jul 15, 2005 13:56 UTC (Fri) by rehdon (guest, #29998) [Link] (2 responses)

"If you don't want to help you have no reason to complain."

Of course this concept that you have no right to speak, complain or request (not *demand*) unless you're a developer, automatically makes all Linux *users* second class members of the open source community. I could also add that this arrogant elitism doesn't inspire me to help much cool and l33t debianists, but that's beyond the point.

The point is that Debian hasn't still find an equilibrium in its release policy, while Ubuntu indeed has momentum and has shown what can be done using the Debian framework. Mr. Murdock's remarks sound like a "sour grapes" whining, it was a sad read.

getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum

Posted Jul 16, 2005 1:40 UTC (Sat) by jstAusr (guest, #27224) [Link] (1 responses)

Cool! I'm just a user too and we can help even if we aren't developers. Its lots of fun. So, have you decided what you are going to work on?

getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum

Posted Jul 16, 2005 11:03 UTC (Sat) by rehdon (guest, #29998) [Link]

FYI, and assuming this is not a childish retort, I'm already a Linux contributor, although not a Debian one.

getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum

Posted Jul 13, 2005 22:52 UTC (Wed) by huffd (guest, #10382) [Link] (2 responses)

The way Ubuntu is going with it's foundation, before the next Debian "release" telling them to get on board might be like waving the dog to move the tail.

getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum

Posted Jul 14, 2005 1:26 UTC (Thu) by Junior_Samples (guest, #26737) [Link] (1 responses)

It may be that Debian has already peaked. Ubantu is coming on strong. And that is as it should be. Linux has continuously evolved, and will keep on evolving.

Think back to some of the early distributions of Linux -- Yggdrasil, Bogus Linux, and SLS. Each brought something new to the table and provided a stepping stone to something better. Eventually Slackware came along and shone brightly for several years, and yet it too receded as others came along to "kick it up a notch".

Debian has had its shot, and gave it its best, so perhaps now is time for Debian to pass the torch to the next generation of distributions. New ideas, new blood, new energy--it's a good thing.

getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum

Posted Jul 14, 2005 9:28 UTC (Thu) by error27 (guest, #8346) [Link]

I completely support Ubuntu but Debian is still a zillion times more important than Ubuntu.

You're right, of course, that everything needs to change with the times but "peaked" is a bad word. Debian has had trouble scaling recently because it is growing. There are so many packages, and so many maintainers and so many different architectures. So it's not surprising that Sarge took a long time, but growing is the opposite of "peaked."

The challenge now is to grow even larger but to have faster releases and to work more closely with Debian Based Distros since that is the important trend.

getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum

Posted Jul 14, 2005 21:59 UTC (Thu) by gomadtroll (guest, #11239) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't know Ian Murdocks current status, if any with the Debian project, I do know he is a key player with Progeny. Progeny , is one, Debian based distro that maintains complete compatability with Debian. Progeny depends on Debian releases,and contributes as a community member, but afaikt, is not responsible for Debian Sarge's release.

Ubuntu is in an interesting position, it hires Debian developers, some of the same ones (or all?) that work on Debian, used Debian packages. The speed Ubuntu is moving though, they will have to be the ones supplying the new versions and new software packages in the .deb package, or retain compatability with Debian.

Greg

getting a release out is not the same as getting momentum

Posted Jul 16, 2005 21:28 UTC (Sat) by piman (guest, #8957) [Link]

> Progeny, is one, Debian based distro that maintains complete compatability with Debian.

This is patently bullshit. For "complete compatability[sic]' they would have to ship exactly what Debian does, no additions, changes, or removals. But of course they don't do that. Matthew Garrett points out[0], for example, that Progeny has diverged incompatibly and fundamentally from Debian since their start.

> Progeny depends on Debian releases,and contributes as a community member, but afaikt, is not responsible for Debian Sarge's release.

The exact same can be said of Ubuntu.

> [Ubuntu] hires Debian developers, some of the same ones (or all?) that work on Debian, used Debian packages.

The exact same can be said of Progeny.

Really, a lot of what Ian is saying just seems like hot air. Sarge's release certainly was cathartic, but Debian and Ubuntu are not going to die because some packages require a rebuild. I'd like to repeat that, to make it clear: many packages that have "diverged" only require a rebuild. The actual source diff is unchanged, since the dependencies are generated at build time.

Both Progeny and Ubuntu contribute a lot back to Debian, both depend on Debian (and will, until they decide to hire enough staff to produce a whole distribution) and it's odd to see Ian engaging in FUD against Ubuntu since they're not really competitors.

> The speed Ubuntu is moving though, they will have to be the ones supplying the new versions and new software packages in the .deb package...

Ubuntu has done this since its inception. It defaulted to Python 2.4 rather than 2.3, for example, and GNOME 2.8/2.10.

[0] http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/45175.html

Ian Murdock on the Debian Core Consortium and Ubuntu Foundation (ZDNet)

Posted Jul 14, 2005 1:18 UTC (Thu) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] (3 responses)

The Debian project needs to urgently work with the FSF to stop the coming train wreck, or their next distribution will have almost no documentation.

I think that the best that can be achieved in the short term is to punt on the issue of invariant sections (since RMS is unlikely to budge), and focus on the other problems (the DRM problems and the business of transparent and opaque copies). If Debian and the FSF could work out solutions to those issues (which arguably are just drafting errors; I don't believe the FSF intended to forbid "chmod 400"), then the Gnome documentation (for example) would be sufficiently free for Debian to use, even if the GNU toolchain documentation (with its invariant sections) would not be. That would make a huge difference to end users.

We could then have a new GFDL which Debian could consider free iff there are no invariant sections, front cover texts, back cover texts, etc.

Ian Murdock on the Debian Core Consortium and Ubuntu Foundation (ZDNet)

Posted Jul 14, 2005 2:48 UTC (Thu) by rqosa (subscriber, #24136) [Link]

> The Debian project needs to urgently work with the FSF to stop the coming train wreck, or their next distribution will have almost no documentation.

Except that GFDL documentation can be in non-free.

Maybe they should create a new section (called "docs" or something like that) with its own set of rules for what may be included (DFDG?) which allows the GFDL.

FSF will update the GFDL

Posted Jul 14, 2005 14:14 UTC (Thu) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] (1 responses)

FSF plan to update the GFDL, and AFAIK the requirement to retain Invariant Sections will be removed. I don't know what other changes are in store.

The GPLv3 is the priority now though.

FSF will update the GFDL

Posted Jul 15, 2005 18:17 UTC (Fri) by dthurston (guest, #4603) [Link]

I'm very interested to hear more about the FSF's plans to remove invariant sections; what's the source for this?

Would that really be so bad?

Posted Jul 14, 2005 15:27 UTC (Thu) by pyellman (guest, #4997) [Link] (1 responses)

Would it really be so bad if Debian were to evolve into a key (say, most important) upstream provider for a growing number of Linux distro heavyweights? If Debian continued to produce a usable disribution that appealed to those particularly concerned with software freedom, but also served as the touchstone for a group of distributions with much broader appeal? One of the major concerns coming out of the Debian developers and advocate seems to be over the growing "incompatibility" of these other distros with Debian. I have to wonder if the outside influence (pressure?) that these other distros might exert on Debian, in terms of input into Debian's technical decision process, would necessarily be a bad thing either. Perhaps the onus is on Debian to establish a better process for incorporating beneficial (popular?) enhancements from these other distros. And finally, it seems that this scenario would allow Debian to become more focused and avoid expending energy on the debates that have resulted from the tension between strict commitment to software freedom and broad appeal.

Maybe Debian wouldn't be the only fish in the pond then, but it seems to me it would still be the biggest fish in a much bigger pond.

PS -- I've used Debian pretty much exclusively (when using Linux) for over 4 years.

Peter Yellman

I don't think it'd be so bad at all

Posted Jul 16, 2005 9:01 UTC (Sat) by robla (guest, #424) [Link]

Some people seem to be all freaked out that Ubuntu is currently outpacing Debian in many areas. However, I just don't see how its a huge problem. The GPL is a pretty solid check on any sort of abuse, and in the worst case, Debian dwindles in relative market share. In the very worst case, it becomes a Linux vs. Hurd type situation, which means there may be some ruffled feathers, but the vast majority of free software users are happy to have a working system, regardless of what its called. If Ubuntu or whoever starts abusing their position, their work could be absorbed right back into Debian pretty easily. If not, a Debian-like group could easily fork.

So, there's a number of inconvenient and maybe mildly disappointing outcomes, but nothing to get in too much of a fuss about.

Rob

Ian Murdock on the Debian Core Consortium and Ubuntu Foundation (ZDNet)

Posted Jul 23, 2005 23:07 UTC (Sat) by masinick (guest, #2653) [Link] (1 responses)

The Debian project contains an excellent packaging system, and it contains mutiple repositories, which lead to incredible flexibility not found in any other project.

The Debian project has been very weak when it comes to releasing what it considers final and stable releases, yet at the very same time, it continues to produce and maintain many other useful packages, released or not.

Debian seems to be in the process of looking at various ways to maintain all of the positive things that the Debian project does and get rid of or at least minimize some of the glaring weaknesses that the project has faced.

Getting into arguing matches about how one company helps or doesn't help, in my opinion, is counterproductive. I know that both Ubuntu and Progeny have many Debian employees, for example, and I believe that other companies, such as Xandros, Linspire, and others, have also produced software and/or bug fixes that they have then contributed back to the Debian project. So getting into arguments about who does what is fruitless.

There is always room for improvement, and one recent proposal that I really liked was a fresh look at what "Debian Core" might look like. Ghe Rivero is an active participant in UserLinux and one who promotes a really basic Debian Core. I like his ideas. Here is one of his proposals, which you can read on LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/ghe/10660.html

I like his ideas. What do you think of them?

Ian Murdock on the Debian Core Consortium and Ubuntu Foundation (ZDNet)

Posted Jul 23, 2005 23:10 UTC (Sat) by masinick (guest, #2653) [Link]

You can contact me with your comments and ideas by editing my Email address and sending me Email:

Brian Masinick, masinick At\ yahoo Dot\ com