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I can't help but feeling like if we're just going to be talking about copyright, we've jumped the shark.

I can't help but feeling like if we're just going to be talking about copyright, we've jumped the shark.

Posted Mar 27, 2026 20:06 UTC (Fri) by wahern (subscriber, #37304)
In reply to: I can't help but feeling like if we're just going to be talking about copyright, we've jumped the shark. by Wol
Parent article: Vibe-coded ext4 for OpenBSD

> What if I do a Mozart, go to a concert, and write out the score from memory?

As an aside, that reminds me of an interesting bit of history in the famous Sony Betamax US Supreme Court case. In Justice Stevens first draft opinion, he wrote, "It would plainly be unconstitutional to prohibit a person from singing a copyrighted song in the shower or jotting down a copyrighted poem he hears on the radio". That second scenario, transcribing a poem, gets black letter copyright law dead wrong, at least in the sense he meant--his original opinion argued the Copyright Act didn't apply at all to such private, personal use. IIRC, the other justices had to correct him that that is the very definition of copyright infringement, and the definition of infringement per se never distinguished private from commercial. Fair Use would protect a person from liability (and the First Amendment would likely demand it), but it's nonetheless infringement, per se; Fair Use is a *defense* to infringement.

> What if I do what a lot of musicians do, and extemporise a piece where I have no idea where the inspiration came from?

In the US, at least, you generally prove infringement by showing 1) substantial similarity (to copyrighted material) and 2) access to the copyrighted work. It doesn't matter your intentions or whether you even knowingly copied or made a derivative. Access can be proven by showing that, e.g., a work is effectively universally encountered, e.g. Beatles' songs.

As regards AI or anything else, substantial similarity and access are really all you need to show infringement. Showing access in the case of AI is basically a slam dunk for any published work, given large models have been trained on effectively everything that has been digitized. Copyright cases usually turn on the degree of similarity, or other issues, like whether a work was actually protected by copyright, whether copied material was copyrightable, establishing the rights holder, application of Fair Use, etc. But the question whether infringement could occur is the simplest aspect to copyright law, at least in countries where copyright law derives from common law copyright. Your hypotheticals don't actually pose any sort of challenge to the basic logic of infringement in this regard. The keystone to copyright law is the concept of originality, and answering the question of originality is fundamentally just 1) substantial similarity and 2) access.


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I can't help but feeling like if we're just going to be talking about copyright, we've jumped the shark.

Posted Mar 30, 2026 10:05 UTC (Mon) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (1 responses)

> But the question whether infringement could occur is the simplest aspect to copyright law, at least in countries where copyright law derives from common law copyright.

In contrast, in Civil Law countries "fair use" is not a defense: copyright law defines an enumerated set of exceptions to the exclusive right of reproduction (e.g. Directive 2001/29/EC (Infosec directive)). They are permissions rather than defenses. So singing in the shower is no infringement. Different folks, different strokes.

And rather than open-ended definitions like "derivative work" it grants author the exclusive right to authorize adaptations of their work (e.g., translations, transformations). So it has to be a transformation of the work, not merely "it looks similar".

There is however case law on this: GEMA v. OpenAI (Munich Regional Court, 2024) [1]. In this case: when the users asked OpenAI for the lyrics of a song, it reproduces them (almost) exactly and this was considered copyright infringement.

> According to the Munich Regional Court, reproducing the song lyrics in question in the models does not constitute text and data mining. Text and data mining aims to generate information. However, in the opinion of the Munich Regional Court, the memorization of the lyrics exceeds this generation of information and is therefore not merely text and data mining. The song lyrics, used as training data, were fully integrated into the model’s parameters, which interferes with the authors’ exploitation interests.

So you can legally scrape all the data you want off the internet and train with it. But that doesn't give a blanket free-pass on the output.

Which is why the discussion of the patch should revolve around: how much does it look like memorisation and how much is constrained by the fact that is has to be interoperable (an exception).

[1] https://www.medialaws.eu/gema-v-openai-decision-of-the-mu...

I can't help but feeling like if we're just going to be talking about copyright, we've jumped the shark.

Posted Apr 3, 2026 22:33 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> > But the question whether infringement could occur is the simplest aspect to copyright law, at least in countries where copyright law derives from common law copyright.

> In contrast, in Civil Law countries "fair use" is not a defense: copyright law defines an enumerated set of exceptions to the exclusive right of reproduction (e.g. Directive 2001/29/EC (Infosec directive)). They are permissions rather than defenses. So singing in the shower is no infringement. Different folks, different strokes.

What is "common law copyright"? As has been pointed out in assorted comments here and on Groklaw, copyright apparently came into existence as a means of censorship - a "letters patent on printing". So no common law involvement afaik.

And "fair use" is not a defence in "Common Law countries" either - to the best of my knowledge. It's an American invention, and only exists in America. It also only applies afaik to Civil Law, not Criminal Law. In the UK at least, copyright violations can be criminal offences, and an appeal to fair use would be laughed out of court.

Cheers,
Wol


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