"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 16, 2026 8:35 UTC (Fri) by taladar (subscriber, #68407)
In reply to: "SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services) by dskoll
Parent article: A note for MXroute users

> If you know someone's email address, you can communicate with them with no prior arrangement.

The real questions is why we would want this in a world that is so clearly full of scams, spam, people using your address because they think it is their own,...

90+% of email use today is mails from some system where you have an account anyway, those don't really need this property.

Of the rest is having to send some sort of separate type of message as your first message like the friends invite in most modern systems really such a big deal?

to post comments

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 16, 2026 12:19 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (20 responses)

> The real questions is why we would want this in a world that is so clearly full of scams, spam, people using your address because they think it is their own,...

I guess some (most?) folks don't actually value freedom.

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 16, 2026 13:08 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (19 responses)

Freedom is over-rated.

Don't forget "you can pick two. any two". Reality offers us a choice of three. America is so fixated on Freedom, that it forgets the other two, which are Society, and Security/Wealth.

(Society is basically where people look after each other, and Security is where you have enough money or whatever to live comfortably)

I can't remember the details back from when I came across it originally, but is the classic dilemma that choosing one stops you having the other. It's extremely easy to come to the - rational! - conclusion that Freedom isn't worth it, especially when you compare America to other civilised nations and decide that having the majority struggling on the breadline where it's every man for himself just is not where you want to be.

I'm not saying I like that choice, I want all three. But nature says NO!

Cheers,
Wol

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 18, 2026 6:35 UTC (Sun) by elimranianass (subscriber, #164758) [Link] (16 responses)

A majority of people are struggling to survive in America? I visit even the most rural corners there, frequently, since I'm Canadian and in general, people are wealthier and have better services than we do here. So I guess Canada is even worse? Compared to what? Surely not Europe, because just a look at youth unemployment would make that statement rather ironic. I'm not trying to start an argument, it's just that I'm wondering if you have been to America before because your comment is puzzling. The US has tons of problems, but that's just not one of them

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 18, 2026 7:23 UTC (Sun) by nivedita76 (subscriber, #121790) [Link] (1 responses)

I live in America, and every city I’ve lived in has homeless people and beggars, so, yes, there certainly are a number of people struggling to survive.

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 18, 2026 7:26 UTC (Sun) by nivedita76 (subscriber, #121790) [Link]

I probably wouldn’t characterize it as the “majority”, that is true, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s larger than Europe. My understanding, which may be wrong, is that in Europe, being unemployed doesn’t automatically mean you struggle to survive. In the US the unemployed youth without support from parents is probably living on the street and eating at soup kitchens.

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 18, 2026 12:17 UTC (Sun) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (13 responses)

> A majority of people are struggling to survive in America?

Yes. Grocery bills have roughly doubled in the past five or so years. Medical care costs (+insurance premiums) continue to skyrocket. Real estate (==rent) prices are being driven further up by private equity that totally isn't (wink wink) engaging in price fixing. Government assistance programs are being slashed. What jobs there are available are menial and don't pay enough to cover the bills.

source: my own eyes living in a very rural community that gets in excess of two thirds of its revenue from federal funding. we're about to lose our only hospital; local farmers lost their primary export markets; the cost of pretty much everything has gone way up and effective incomes are going down. Naturally this is all the fault of folks with non-white skin. (No, I am not making that last bit up)

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 18, 2026 14:48 UTC (Sun) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link] (12 responses)

> Grocery bills have roughly doubled in the past five or so years.

It's a 24% increase. Salaries grown faster than inflation so people's buying power has increased. This has allowed various immoral pundits to trick to the gullible by omitting to mention that when people get richer they shop more at Whole Foods, Gelson's and such.

> Naturally this is all the fault of folks with non-white skin. (No, I am not making that last bit up)

This is the only real motivation, the germans have a saying "Schadenfreude ist die richtige Freude". Current president is doing exactly what he said he would do.

The polls were clear that the actually struggling went for Harris. There just weren't that many of them. Especially since Biden's policies gave the most growth in buying power to the lowest paid...

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 18, 2026 16:02 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (2 responses)

> The polls were clear that the actually struggling went for Harris. There just weren't that many of them. Especially since Biden's policies gave the most growth in buying power to the lowest paid...

Are you sure? Of course I don't know America, but a lot of the programs here - *aimed* at changing the tax system to help the lowest paid - (a) forget that the poorest paid don't pay tax, and (b) actually had a much bigger impact for higher rate tax payers.

Your typical younger person over here, if they're on the average salary, is claiming top-up benefits. THAT'S APPALLING. Bear in mind Mr Average earns a lot less than the average salary, so that's potentially about 70% of the population. I didn't include older people (although many of them are in financial difficulty) because a lot of them own their own house outright, so money that the young are spending on rent is for them discretionary income.

And this isn't a party political dig - one of the biggest problems is politicians dancing to the scandal-seeking imagination of incompetent journalists.

Cheers,
Wol

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 18, 2026 17:06 UTC (Sun) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link] (1 responses)

> Of course I don't know America, but a lot of the programs here

The countries are very different. The US has grown. The UK has stagnated(not helped by leaving the EU). Biden in particular got some very good policies through, probably because the republicans realized that they can just *say* they are horrible instead of blocking them. And then they get the benefit of a better economy and can continue to make people believe it is bad.

Hmm. I realize that I sound like a madman giving an objective analysis of US politics. Better not talk about them threatening to invade an island because they want to put a radar there, except they've already had multiple radars and military bases there for approx 70 years.

Off-topic

Posted Jan 18, 2026 17:11 UTC (Sun) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

Folks (all of you!), this has gone way off topic for LWN. Please let's end it here.

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 18, 2026 22:07 UTC (Sun) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (8 responses)

> It's a 24% increase. Salaries grown faster than inflation so people's buying power has increased.

Inflation over the past five years is officially 24%. However median wages have only gone up by 21% during that same period. Meanwhile, housing costs have gone up by nearly 50%, and other essentials (eg food, medical, energy) have also gone up faster than the official inflation rate.

Essential costs going up faster than wages yields a *decrease* in buying power.

More tangibly, I spend more today to feed just two people than I did to feed four in 2020 -- and I have the receipts to prove it.

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 18, 2026 23:59 UTC (Sun) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link] (7 responses)

I expect we will get yelled again for being off-topic, so to keep it short. This is the graph of median wages adjusted for inflation:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q

The big spike in 2020 is an artifact of the lowest paid workers being fired during the pandemic while the highest paid where kept on the payroll.

Cherry-pickers who want to mislead are having a field day with exploiting this. But in reality the median US worker is better off now than ever before.

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 19, 2026 9:33 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (6 responses)

Just to point out you've failed to address pizza's point.

Absolute wages is irrelevant if you fail to address essential costs. What's happened to *disposable* income after food, housing etc? I'm lucky - I haven't really felt this, but many UK homes are now in "negative budget", as pay rises and inflation are roughly equal, but rent and food costs have been rising at double that. Pizza's figures say the US is in the same mess as the UK.

Cheers,
Wol

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 19, 2026 11:29 UTC (Mon) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link] (5 responses)

> Just to point out you've failed to address pizza's point.

No, his point is fully addressed. The graph is adjusted for inflation and represents real buying power.
> Pizza's figures say the US is in the same mess as the UK.

It's not. It's likely that the last US election was even stupider than brexit, but the effects haven't really shown up yet except for some communities that e.g. depended on trade with Canada.

In fact we haven't really seen the effects of brexit itself yet.

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 19, 2026 12:42 UTC (Mon) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (4 responses)

> No, his point is fully addressed. The graph is adjusted for inflation and represents real buying power.

The reason "grocery prices" haven't gone up in those official stats is that the yardsticks have changed -- You can't just compare prices, oyu have to compare what you *get* for those prices. A salient (and widely reported) example is how the ingredients to prepare a Thanksgiving meal (from walmart) was trumpeted as being "25% cheaper" this year than the last, and could supposedly even feed 10 instead of 8. Except this year's selection included considerably less (in both variety *and* quantity) than last year's, with a higher portion of lower-quality store brands than before. I can provide numerous examples in my pantry right now where the packaging has shrunk while being sold for the "same" price. (Directly in front of me is a juice container that has shrunk from 64oz pre-COVID to 59oz...to now 57. And the "price" has _still_ gone up after adjusted for the official inflation rate. And that's for something produced a few hours' drive from here)

So who do I believe, you or my own lying eyes (and actual receiepts)?

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 19, 2026 13:10 UTC (Mon) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link] (3 responses)

> The reason "grocery prices" haven't gone up in those official stats is that the yardsticks have change

The official stats are designed to adjust for those effects. The whole point of producing them is to give an objective measure.

> So who do I believe, you or my own lying eyes

You seem a bit confused.

1) I'm not the person producing these stats.
2) You are conflating your own experience with the US as a whole. Even in the best of economies it's normal to have a number of people or whole communities that are struggling.

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 19, 2026 13:45 UTC (Mon) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (2 responses)

> The official stats are designed to adjust for those effects. The whole point of producing them is to give an objective measure.

I agree, they are "supposed to"

But in practice, it's not so perfect. And that's before the current administration fired the head of the bureau of labor statistics for not producing "good" numbers.

> You are conflating your own experience with the US as a whole. Even in the best of economies it's normal to have a number of people or whole communities that are struggling.

I understand all about statistics and [non-uniform] sample distribution. But when I'm in the top 5 percentile for income, living in one of the lower-cost areas of the country, and spending more to feed fewer people (after official inflation rates are factored in) it's hard to see how everyone to the left of my spot on the curve (ie lower income and/or higher relative expenses, ie "worse off") is instead somehow doing better than I am.

(This reminds me of the "sure, we're losing money on every item we sell, but we'll make up for it in volume!" quip)

This thread has outlived its usefulness

Posted Jan 19, 2026 13:47 UTC (Mon) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link]

Let's, everybody, please wind this up here and any other threads discussing the economy, etc. Thank you.

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 19, 2026 14:09 UTC (Mon) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link]

Lots of people insist that there's something wrong with official statistics and produce their own, including billionaires who spend plenty of money. Yet all of these have so far been obviously wrong if you poke at it a little. They make the rounds on Twitter a while and are them forgotten.

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 18, 2026 7:29 UTC (Sun) by nivedita76 (subscriber, #121790) [Link] (1 responses)

Why is this a dilemma? Europe doesn’t seem particularly “unfree” to me, and whatever “think of the children” regulations might be proposed or passed seem to have more to do with politics and winning elections than being necessary for social cohesion or wealth or security.

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 18, 2026 12:20 UTC (Sun) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> and whatever “think of the children” regulations might be proposed or passed seem to have more to do with politics and winning elections than being necessary for social cohesion or wealth or security.

They may not be "necessary" but they are still the law of the land and as such are enforced.

"SMTP has outlived its usefulness" (was: Forwarding services)

Posted Jan 16, 2026 13:24 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

>>If you know someone's email address, you can communicate with them with no prior arrangement.

> The real questions is why we would want this in a world that is so clearly full of scams, spam, people using your address because they think it is their own,...

Anti-spam software nowadays is pretty good; I rarely get a spam that makes it into my INBOX. So I think most email providers have figured out how to keep it manageable. As to why we want that, there are all kinds of reasons. If I want to send a quick enquiry to an online store, email is the most convenient way. If I want to let people contact me with questions about my open-source software projects, email is the most convenient way.

The phone system and regular mail work the same way. If you know someone's phone number, you can just call them up. You don't need to perform any setup work to be able to do this, and it's very convenient.