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Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 8, 2026 16:23 UTC (Thu) by paulj (subscriber, #341)
Parent article: SFC v. VIZIO: who can enforce the GPL?

Question I have whether the contract that is created is part of or arises in the wake of the contract of sale between the maker and buyer for the device; or whether the contract arises out of the "any 3rd party" condition of the GPL for source offers (i.e., where source was not provided as part of the original distribution)?


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Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 8, 2026 16:33 UTC (Thu) by daroc (editor, #160859) [Link] (23 responses)

My current understanding (with the caveat that although I've researched this and read through the legal filings, I'm not a lawyer) is that:

If a company does indeed make a source offer, and someone accepts, that probably suffices to create an enforceable contract under California law and probably under other US jurisdictions too. This contract doesn't directly depend on the GPL — it's formed in the normal way of any contract, by having someone make an offer and someone accept a deal wherein each party receives a consideration.

Anything beyond that, such as whether just redistributing modified GPL-licensed software is enough to implicitly create a source offer, or whether buying a product changes things, or how this extends to other less explicit cases is not decided yet. Some of that might be decided during the trial, and some of it might have to be settled by other lawsuits.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 8, 2026 20:41 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (10 responses)

> This contract doesn't directly depend on the GPL — it's formed in the normal way of any contract, by having someone make an offer and someone accept a deal wherein each party receives a consideration.

Bear in mind, I believe there has been a US court case which has explicitly stated that consideration is not necessarily money/goods, a promise can be consideration. So an acceptance of the GPL / promise to abide by its terms could be the necessary consideration to create a contract. Which would clearly make the SFC a 3rd-party beneficiary of a contract.

Cheers,
Wol

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 8, 2026 21:21 UTC (Thu) by daroc (editor, #160859) [Link]

Sure! I do think it's very possible that the judge will say that such a contract exists. But we don't know that will happen for _certain_ because she has not yet ruled on that question.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 25, 2026 21:00 UTC (Sun) by jjs (guest, #10315) [Link]

From my one course on Business Law over 30 years ago (so my memory may not be right), "Consideration" and acceptance of an offer doesn't have to be goods. Example given, as I recall: "If you get an A on your XYZ test, I'll buy you ice cream." That's the offer. Acceptance can be demonstrated by getting an "A" on XYZ test. Consideration is, on one side, the fact that the other person got the A (on the other side, they get ice cream). From my perspective, the receiver abiding by the GPL could be considered acceptance, which binds the giver to the terms of the GPL for providing source code.

IANAL, though, having only had that one course. For legal advice, consult an attorney.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 26, 2026 12:28 UTC (Mon) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (7 responses)

From the point of EU/Dutch law, a copyright license is not a contract, not even an implicit one, because there is no offer, negotiation or acceptance. So the issue of consideration doesn't even enter into the picture. A copyright license can only limit things limited by copyright law, nothing else. And if you violate the terms it's a copyright violation, not a contract breach.

This was incidentally one of the issues with the GPLv2 which talks about "accepting the license" which is meaningless in an EU/Dutch legal sense.

Open‑source licenses are the closest thing to a "pure" software copyright license in EU/Dutch law: they grant permission for copyright‑restricted acts and impose conditions only on those acts, no contract acceptance required. In contrast, most commercial software ships under a contract (e.g. EULA) because they add extra terms (usage limits, audits, warranties, SLAs, payment, etc.) not related to copyright which require contractual consent and are enforceable as contracts.

And apparently in the EU/Dutch model you can sue as a recipient because you were "harmed" by someone else's copyright violation. But the only remedy you can get is compliance, only the author has additional possibilities.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 26, 2026 15:39 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (3 responses)

> In contrast, most commercial software ships under a contract (e.g. EULA) because they add extra terms (usage limits, audits, warranties, SLAs, payment, etc.) not related to copyright which require contractual consent and are enforceable as contracts.

Most commercial software ships as part of a commercial transaction, eg the customer buys it, but "adding extra terms" post-hoc is probably illegal certainly under EU consumer protection law. I'm not aware of any court cases over this, though. Under UK law I would have thought a customer saying "I've paid for this but can't agree to the extra terms" would instantly trigger "not fit for purpose" and a mandatory refund. Tough on the customer if they actually wanted the software, though.

> From the point of EU/Dutch law, a copyright license is not a contract, not even an implicit one, because there is no offer, negotiation or acceptance.

What do you mean - "no offer"? The licence IS the offer, just like the price tag on the shelf of a supermarket. In UK terms, an "offer to treat".
"No negotiation"? The price tag is "take it or leave it", just like the licence.
And acceptance? "Fine, I accept those terms and I'll pay the price". Supermarket or licence.

A licence isn't a contract, yes, but the licence is the terms - the agreement - behind a contract. If you accept the terms of the licence, you are bringing a contract into being.

Hmmm - this is the nub of the problem - you can admit to copyright violation (which in these circumstances would actually be a criminal offence in the UK), or you can admit to breach of contract. Which is better? Admit to a civil offence, or a criminal one? Unfortunately, given the choice, it's probably better for a company to admit the criminal one :-(

Cheers,
Wol

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 26, 2026 17:30 UTC (Mon) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (2 responses)

>What do you mean - "no offer"? The licence IS the offer, just like the price tag on the shelf of a supermarket. In UK terms, an "offer to treat".
> "No negotiation"? The price tag is "take it or leave it", just like the licence.
> And acceptance? "Fine, I accept those terms and I'll pay the price". Supermarket or licence.

Please do not assume the rest of the world works like it does in the UK/US. Yes, if you pay for software there is a contract which grants you a licence, but the contract is not the licence. If you are not paying, e.g. GPL software, then there is no contract, just the licence that grants unilateral terms. If you violate the terms of an EULA it can be both contract violation and copyright infringement, because you can violate both the contract and the licence separately.

In Common Law systems, the distinction between a contract and a license is fuzzy, which makes discussion harder due to overlapping legal terminology. Here they are two strictly separated categories. You cannot "accept" a GPL licence in Dutch law, it just doesn't mean anything. Which is why the GPLv3 got rid of that language. The author granted you rights, you have them, you don't have to "accept" them first.

AIUI Common Law systems never developed a robust framework of "unilateral granting of permissions", but try to convert everything into some form of "contract", which falls apart once you start dealing with intangibles like software.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 26, 2026 17:37 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

> Please do not assume the rest of the world works like it does in the UK/US.

Worth also bearing in mind the rest of the EU doesn't per se work like NL. There is at least 1 (or 2?) EU member state that derives from English common law* - Ireland (and Malta?).

Though, it may be the GPL does not lead to a contract in common law jurisdictions either. Not clear to me - nor are the implications clear. There was an article on LWN in '03 from Pamela Jones: https://lwn.net/Articles/61292/

* Note, English common law - not "UK common law". Scotland has a distinct system.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 26, 2026 18:24 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> In Common Law systems, the distinction between a contract and a license is fuzzy, which makes discussion harder due to overlapping legal terminology. Here they are two strictly separated categories.

Given that a contract (under our legal system, at least) is assumed to be a meeting of minds, I would agree that a licence is not a contract.

But a licence is *the terms of the contract*.

Just like, if you have a copy of the GPL3, that copy is not a licence. But when you copy (or other restricted actions) some GPL software, that *copy* of the GPL is the terms and conditions that let you copy it.

So the question is - "does a contract exist, the agreed terms being the GPL"? And if you're going to say the licence and the contract are two separate things, I'd agree with you. I'd just argue that you cannot take advantage of the GPL without bringing a contract into existence. Which was my point about does the offender admit to (criminal) copyright violations, or breach of contract.

Cheers,
Wol

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 27, 2026 5:20 UTC (Tue) by donald.buczek (subscriber, #112892) [Link] (2 responses)

> From the point of EU/Dutch law, a copyright license is not a contract, not even an implicit one, because there is no offer, negotiation or acceptance.

I am fairly certain that this is not generally correct and that a license is always a contract, at least in German law.

With FOSS, the accompanying license file is usually a public offer and the contract is accepted “impliedly,” i.e., through conclusive action.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 27, 2026 9:29 UTC (Tue) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (1 responses)

In English law, there's a nuance that only lawyers really need to care about: most licences are technically offers to contract, and you're not bound by them if you can show that you did not accept the terms (but that requires you showing that your behaviour was lawful in the absence of an accepted contract).

The details of what that means is a fun bit of minutiae for a lawyer (and was a fun chat to have with one), but for all useful purposes, you might as well treat a FOSS licence as a contract - the interesting edge cases all crop up where the licence restricts something that is lawful in the absence of the licence as a whole (e.g. if it purports to place restrictions on reverse engineering).

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 27, 2026 10:11 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> the interesting edge cases all crop up where the licence restricts something that is lawful in the absence of the licence as a whole (e.g. if it purports to place restrictions on reverse engineering).

Especially in a EULA, if the customer has already paid for the software before they agree to the licence! As I have a habit of saying, that's fraud. With a small "f", not necessarily in law, but a pretty clear case of "obtaining money/whatever by deception".

Cheers,
Wol

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 8, 2026 23:59 UTC (Thu) by milesrout (subscriber, #126894) [Link] (11 responses)

What consideration does the offeror receive in this scenario? As I understand it you're talking about this situation:

1. A offers to the world to provide the source code for product X.
2. B "accepts" the offer by doing what? Buying product X manufactured by A but not directly from A?

The problem is: what consideration has A received from X?

The classic case in English law on unilateral contracts, and I suspect but have not checked that the same general principles apply in the US, is Carlill v Carbolic Smoke Ball Company where the Smoke Ball company offered its product for sale and advertised that it could cure certain ailments. It also offered to pay a reward to anyone whose ailments weren't cured. Carlill bought the product and sued for the reward, not having been cured.

But the difference here is that B has just downloaded X. B hasn't actually bought anything from A, hasn't given any consideration. There's no contract. Now it might be different if B had bought a TV directly from the manufacturer but if B has bought the TV from their local retailer then I don't see how there is good consideration from B to A for there to be a contract.

(This post is not legal advice etc.)

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 9, 2026 8:28 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (2 responses)

You could well be right but this doesn't sit well with me. This smells (like Carbolic :-) of early consumer protection.

Smoke Ball took the customer's money and provided a guarantee, which had nothing to do with the customer and everything to do with the product. So this case has a strong whiff of "fraud" to me - either it didn't work and Smoke Ball took money under false pretences, or it did work and the customer was trying it on.

The GPL and software licences feel very different to me. "If you do X, we will let you do Y". (And this is where lawyers earn their money because consciously intending not to do X also stinks of fraud ...).

So I think the question in the Carbolic case is did Smoke Ball make an offer they had no intention of honouring, or did they make an offer they didn't expect to be taken up.

In the Vizio case, the question is did Vizio (or someone in their supply chain) make an offer they had no intention of honouring.

And to whoever mentioned buying a house for them and their child, I don't think courts are extending contracts to "third party beneficiaries", I suspect they're just taking the attitude "a contract is a contract is a contract". Again, consumer protection comes in, because you have the gifter/giftee scenario. If I buy something and gift it to my children, they have no rights because it was a gift. If it wasn't a gift and they'd given me something they would have had rights against me. In the house example the contract said the vendor agreed to hand over the house, so the contractual recipient should be able to enforce it.

I think the question boils down to "is there a clear contractual path to someone who has reneged on their agreement?", and imho as soon as you step beyond unconditional gifts / licenses, that brings an agreement - a contract - into play. Is the licence the whole agreement, or is the licence merely the terms of a contract? Imho if the licence places conditions on the recipient, then it has to be the terms of a mutual contract. It just doesn't make legal sense to me otherwise.

Cheers,
Wol

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 9, 2026 11:15 UTC (Fri) by milesrout (subscriber, #126894) [Link] (1 responses)

The case had nothing to do with consumer protection or fraud. It related to whether there was a contract. It may have entered the judicial mind that the plaintiff was a poor elderly old woman and the defendant was a company but that wasn't the reason for the decision. The reason I brought it up was to contrast it to this case where there it is not clear to me how you could argue that there's an independent contract between me and you just because you publicly make a source code offer and I "accept" it. In order for there to be a contract, there needs to be an exchange of consideration. I'm asking: what does the person to whom I was replying think the consideration is here?

I don't know why you're speculating about the reasons for the Carlill decision because they're not relevant to the point and there's no need to speculate: anyone can go and read it. It isn't about whether the company intended to honour their promise but whether the promise was legally binding as an offer to the world (or whether, as they unsuccessfully argued, offers have to made to specific persons). Subjective intention is not relevant to the law of contract.

>And to whoever mentioned buying a house for them and their child, I don't think courts are extending contracts to "third party beneficiaries", I suspect they're just taking the attitude "a contract is a contract is a contract".

When I briefly explained the principle of privity of contract, its strict implications for intended third party beneficiaries, and that it has commonly been statutorily reformed across multiple jurisdictions, I actually wasn't starting a debate or asking you to come up with ideas about what reasons you might have or have had for coming to similar decisions. I know that sounds rude, but I don't mean it that way. I just don't actually see any value in speculations about things that aren't speculative. This isn't a topic that's up for debate, it's what the legal history is.

There is no legal principle that "a contract is a contract is a contract". There is, however, a principle that only the parties to a contract can enforce it and intended third party beneficiaries are not parties to contracts and so cannot enforce it. And a long history of that principle being applied. And a recognition in society that that created unjust outcomes. And a resulting effort to reform the law to enable claims by intended third party beneficiaries of contracts.

This has nothing to do with consumer protection in the scenario I outlined. The example was not a consumer issue. And it has nothing to do with gifts. My example was an agreement where A pays B in exchange for B transferring property to A and to C. C is not a party to that contract: C has given no consideration, didn't offer anything, didn't accept anything, and does not need to have any knowledge of the contract or manifest any intention to enter into legal relations.

Of course in that scenario the vendor should not be allowed to get away with not transferring the property to C just because A doesn't want to enforce the contract, and C should have a legal right and a claim. That's why this rule has been changed in so many places. But I'm saying I'm not sure how it has changed specifically in California, so it might not be as simple as it is in some places for a third party beneficiary to make a claim.

>I think the question boils down to "is there a clear contractual path to someone who has reneged on their agreement?", and imho as soon as you step beyond unconditional gifts / licenses, that brings an agreement - a contract - into play. Is the licence the whole agreement, or is the licence merely the terms of a contract? Imho if the licence places conditions on the recipient, then it has to be the terms of a mutual contract. It just doesn't make legal sense to me otherwise.

Sometimes the law doesn't make sense to laymen. That's unfortunate but it's fine because it has to operate according to rules and those rules sometimes have consequences that are unintuitive. The question here is whether there is a contract between Vizio and the SFC or whether SFC could make a claim as a third party beneficiary of the contract. They're too quite separate questions. For the former to be the case, there needs to be consideration (which I don't see and nobody has given a satisfactory suggestion for what that consideration might be). The latter claim seems much more likely to me, both from the basic facts as outlined in the article and from the express reference to a claim as a third party in the article.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 9, 2026 13:21 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> The question here is whether there is a contract between Vizio and the SFC [... ] there needs to be consideration [...]

Given that the SFC purchased a Vizio TV, there's clearly _some_ sort of consideration changing hands here.

(Ok, ok, sure, the SFC didn't purchase it directly from Vizio, so there are probably a couple of middlemen involved. But in numerous contexts, the law allows [if not requires!] these layers of indirection to be short-circuited directly back to the manufacturer. Meanwhile, if you turned the TV on and there's a click-through "contract" with Vizio's name on it, then there's clearly a direct relationship too...)

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 9, 2026 10:50 UTC (Fri) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

Your example is confusing because it imagines a product X and then asks where X provided consideration. Products don't accept contracts and so needn't provide consideration, people do that, and so I suggest that you mean to ask what consideration A has received from B ?

English Law has a *long* history of finding some consideration where a lay person can't immediately see anything, so I don't expect that to be an obstacle here. Go read about Peppercorn rents for an example of this. Today it's even not legal to demand payment of the peppercorn because the whole point is that it's a legal fiction, you don't get an actual peppercorn. Lawyers were apparently not uncomfortable with the idea of "consideration" which doesn't exist and will never in reality be received by the other party.

So in this scenario my guess is that if obliged to find one lawyers will say something like B might improve this source code, and A can benefit from that, so that's a consideration. Did they improve it? Nobody cares, in principle they could. Did A benefit? Nobody cares, in principle they could.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 9, 2026 12:27 UTC (Fri) by nivedita76 (subscriber, #121790) [Link] (5 responses)

You shouldn’t need a direct purchase, otherwise how would manufacturer warranties work?

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 9, 2026 13:07 UTC (Fri) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

Manufacturer warranties are not always enforceable, depending on jurisdiction. And when they are enforceable, they're not always contract terms.

In places where they're not enforceable, they are legally good-will gestures from the manufacturer to the consumer; the manufacturer chooses to do something because they believe that the cost of fixing faults is outweighed by the reputational benefit of having consumers believe that the manufacturer will fix any faults they find.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 9, 2026 16:06 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (3 responses)

Many warranties only apply to the original purchaser, and require proof-of-purchase.

Many warranties are also now worthless, as being a subset of consumer protection rights (other than consumer convenience of being to able to say "this is a warranty issue", as I've had cause to do occasionally).

Cheers,
Wol

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 10, 2026 10:06 UTC (Sat) by nivedita76 (subscriber, #121790) [Link] (2 responses)

Well, yes, but as the “original purchaser” of, say, a Sony TV, your proof of purchase shows a payment to Best Buy or amazon or some other retailer, not Sony.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 10, 2026 12:56 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

Yes.

But the legal obligations placed on Best Buy or Amazon usually trump the self-imposed guarantee from Sony. I can get my TV fixed by either. Shops will normally (I have an instance where they didn't) replace a faulty new TV on the spot. I'll never buy that brand of TV again, because apparently it was their terms with the shop that made the shop refuse to just swap :-(

If the shop doesn't replace it on the spot (after a few months, that's unlikely) they can send it back to the manufacturer, or I can, and it's a toss-up whether I take it back to the shop or send it back to the manufacturer, but it's my choice. From my PoV, I'd usually prefer the shop to take the hassle.

And on the one occasion I did have real trouble, I simply said to the shop assistant (John Lewis, of all places !!!) "You're in effect charging me for a warranty repair - you need to go and speak to a manager!" (My phone had broken, and the only offer he would make was refund the sale price and expect me to buy a new one full price. The law says repair/refund/replace whatever is acceptable to ME. And having to pay for a replacement was NOT acceptable. :-)

And if I give the TV as a present the manufacturer guarantee is worthless to the recipient. The shop guarantee MAY transfer to the giftee.

Cheers,
Wol

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 11, 2026 2:04 UTC (Sun) by milesrout (subscriber, #126894) [Link]

This is a separate issue. The reason we have consumer law is that the common law didn't cover these scenarios. So if you bought something from a retailer, you only had rights in contract with the retailer, and generally most of the rights you might expect to have could be contracted out of. If you wanted to make a claim against the manufacturer it would need to be something like a claim in negligence, which was much harder to establish.

In New Zealand, consumer warranties can always be pursued against both retailer and manufacturer, except for a few specific warranties which are only available against the retailer. And it covers gifts as well. They're not contractual rights but statutory rights and it's covered specifically in the Act. But this is just a matter of statute - it has really nothing to do with contract law.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 9, 2026 14:14 UTC (Fri) by daroc (editor, #160859) [Link]

I'm not fully certain what the consideration in question is, actually. The judge's tentative ruling doesn't spell that out, but it does say:

Therefore, Plaintiff adequately stated a basis for its contract argument in its FAC and discovery responses.

... so I'm not sure, but the judge seems to think that a contract could exist here, presumably for reasons that are obvious to a member of California bar but that are not obvious to me.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 9, 2026 0:06 UTC (Fri) by milesrout (subscriber, #126894) [Link] (1 responses)

My reading of this article (but without knowing anything about US law, and without having read any of the pleadings) is that it's a claim for third-party rights under the contract between the copyright holder and Vizio, not a claim that there is a contract between Vizio and the SFC.

Traditionally, contracts are purely private affairs and a non-party does not have the right to make a claim under the contract just because they're identified in it as a beneficiary. So if I had a contract with you where I gave you $1,000,000 and you gave me a house and also agreed to give my child a house, the orthodox position is that I can sue you for your failure to comply but by child cannot. But in many (most?) places this rule has been partially or wholly abrogated if the intention to benefit a non-party is made clear in the contract. But it really depends on the wording of the statute. In New Zealand, it has to be "a person, designated by name, description, or reference to a class, who is not a party to the deed or contract."

(This is not legal advice etc.)

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 9, 2026 14:09 UTC (Fri) by daroc (editor, #160859) [Link]

Perhaps I should have made this clearer in the article, but as is commonly the case with lawsuits, the SFC is making multiple arguments. It's arguing that it is a third-party beneficiary of the GPL agreement between the copyright holders and VIZIO, _and_ that a specific contract exists because they accepted a source offer that VIZIO made.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 12, 2026 2:14 UTC (Mon) by SLi (subscriber, #53131) [Link] (5 responses)

My understanding is that in most US states, you first look at if the text of the agreement is sufficiently ambiguous. If it doesn't facially allow v both sides' readings, the issue is basically over.

California, I believe, is one of the few states that allow evidence on the intent of the parties even when the text has an unambiguous reading.

This applies to your question in one way, and the full case in another way.

I believe that in most states the judge would ask where the GPL mentions third parties can sue, contrary to the default that they cannot. If you want an agreement enforceable by a third party, you almost always need to say so. In those states, it would be really hard to get a judge to read such a right into the agreement. In California, you can still argue that that was the intent of the parties (which is a funny concept when you apply a text written in 1991 to concepts like installing code on a television). I think this judge has still expressed skepticism, but she doesn't sound decided (and that's for the trial).

In California, I seem to remember it used to be much easier for a third party beneficiary to sue, but there was some recent-ish (90s?) case that restricted it to cases where the intent of the agreement was to benefit the third party (probably defined something like, one party needs to have intended the contract clearly to benefit a third party, and the other side must have understood this). This is to distinguish from cases where the third party benefits from the agreement *incidentally*, but the parties acted in self-interest.

I think this is one reason why the SFC designed this carefully to be a state case in California.

The other application is the construction of the GPL. I personally do not think SFC's construction of the text, requiring a practical ability to modify the software in the TV, is feasible. GPL was written in 1991. It doesn't even mention devices. It's clear it contemplates the software to be something like a binary, and at that time, installing from source would have meant running `make install`. I think it's much more plausible to read the text as requiring Makefiles than signing keys.

Here, too, I think SFC can attempt to have more read into the language with evidence from, say, FSF. Not that I would think it is easy when the FSF itself held for ages religiously the view that it's not an agreement (while here if it's not an agreement, SFC has no case; but, frankly, it's my impression that FSF's "it's not an agreement" was intended probably to avoid some pitfalls around disclaiming warranties, and I think no court ever accepted the argument that they are not agreements).

Now, I do tend to read the December 23 ruling as deciding that getting keys argument against SFC—and, contra SFC, I don't think the judge was misled or rejected something SFC didn't claim, but solidly rejected the argument that (L)GPLv2 can reasonably be read to require cryptographic keys necessary to run modified code on the device. SFC makes a lot of noise about "we never said it must not break something", but I really think the judge ruled that no, installation scripts just cannot be read to encompass things that would allow you to run *any code* on that specific device.

This is not to say that the case has been disaster for SFC. In fact, I think it's been a success. It's already very significant that the judge has decided there was a binding and accepted offer to provide the sources to SFC.

I think the trial is going to be mostly about what triggers that—do you need to go through the rituals of requesting the source, have them ignore and stall for years and then you probably won't sue because that's expensive—or whether anyone who receives the software, and regardless of whether Vizio made the offer (it might be breach of license to not provide, but it doesn't follow anyone can sue to enforce it) has enforceable rights, which likely would make something like class actions on their behalf much more possible.

And that will turn in intent. FSF has said some conflicting things over years, and I believe deciphering that will be one part. And I'm not sure if it's been decided yet how that is to be applied to this case, where it's about the intent of the *parties*. The SFC will obviously argue that there's no other consideration; the code *is* the consideration, and it's obviously for the benefit of everyone. But I don't think it's hard to find FSF quotes saying "only the copyright owners can sue" from the relevant times, and that's quite relevant for the intent of the parties when conducting the transaction.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 12, 2026 13:20 UTC (Mon) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (4 responses)

> [...] GPL was written in 1991. It doesn't even mention devices [...]

Most legal texts have been extended to cover stuff far beyond what existed when they were first written. Classic example being the US Constitution's bill of rights.

> But I don't think it's hard to find FSF quotes saying "only the copyright owners can sue" from the relevant times, and that's quite relevant for the intent of the parties when conducting the transaction.

Except the FSF isn't a party to this agreement either. :) If you're going to get into their _intent_ then it's going to be more broadly encompassing than what the _actual_ GPLv2 text allows. Hence the v3 "bugfixes".

Meanwhile, as you mentioned earlier, case law (if not actual statue) develops over subsequent years, and can easily result in outcomes that differ from the intent of any of the [un] involved parties.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 12, 2026 14:43 UTC (Mon) by SLi (subscriber, #53131) [Link] (3 responses)

[I realized after writing my original message here that most of the stuff I wrote about had been further elaborated by excellent LWN articles since then. I should strive to lag less in my news reading. :-)]

> Most legal texts have been extended to cover stuff far beyond what existed when they were first written. Classic example being the US Constitution's bill of rights.

I don't know if "most" is fair, but sure, this happens. Still, a court probably is going to have some doubts reading a legal text in a way that would have been incomprehensible when it was written (except for the Constitution, but I think that is a an example of a nation deciding that something written by humans is holy scripture and then scrambling to fix the damage by creative reading).

> > But I don't think it's hard to find FSF quotes saying "only the copyright owners can sue" from the relevant times, and that's quite relevant for the intent of the parties when conducting the transaction.

> Except the FSF isn't a party to this agreement either. :) If you're going to get into their _intent_ then it's going to be more broadly encompassing than what the _actual_ GPLv2 text allows. Hence the v3 "bugfixes".

Right, but, that makes it far from irrelevant. It cannot be denied that FSF has been a significant force in *how the document was understood* even in the subsequent years. And that *is* relevant when we look at what the kernel devs would have understood it to mean and what Vizio would have understood it to mean.

From a court's point of view, if the drafter of the license, which was one the most pro-free-software entities in existence and certainly a major influence in how it was understood, said in public that only the copyright owner can sue to redress GPL noncompliance, it genuinely does make it less plausible to argue that those who adopted the license likely understood it to give wider enforcement rights.

Now, in the Vizio case, the trial is happening at least in part precisely *because* of a question over FSF's intent. Here's some text from a tentative ruling from December 4:

---

>> Plaintiff alleges the plain language of the GPLs provides that Plaintiff and other purchase of Defendant’s smart TVs are intended third-party beneficiaries of the GPLs. [...] In [26 March 2024 minute] order, the Court found Defendant had presented evidence that FSF “did not intend for third parties [including Plaintiff] to enforce the rights under the license agreement,” creating a triable issue as to the parties’ intent.

[... the court goes to reject Plaintiff's request for summary adjudication for procedural reasons, but offers this alternative grounds:]

>> Plaintiff has not demonstrated that the new evidence disposes of the factual disputes which caused the Court to deny its prior motion. Even if the Court considers the new evidence, including declarations of Ms. Kooyman and Mr. Kuhn, the new evidence does not negate the triable issues created by conflicting prior statements by the FSF which the Court previously found were sufficient to demonstrate a triable issue.

---

> Meanwhile, as you mentioned earlier, case law (if not actual statue) develops over subsequent years, and can easily result in outcomes that differ from the intent of any of the [un] involved parties.

Yes, but here we have to separate two different things: The agreement's intent and the law that constrains things like what you can actually enforce. The courts will look for the intent. The mechanisms they allow themselves differ a bit by jurisdiction, but no court will read a contract from 1950 saying "The Vendor shall retain exclusive rights to all kernels produced by the operation", to apply to OS kernels in 2026. Courts that rely on plain meaning rely on plain meaning at the time of the writing.

So I believe courts would separate the question into two parts:

1. What was the intent of the parties? Depending on jurisdiction, you only look at the text and only if it's ambiguous consider other evidence; or, I think in California, you allow external evidence even for the proposition that "ok, this is what it facially means, but I can show that it's not how the parties meant it". But the courts will try to get as close as they can to how it would have been read at the time.
2. Now, treat that agreement as an abstract blob of intent, separated from the text. Apply the law to an agreement with that intent. Applying 2026 law may give a different result from applying 1950 law.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 12, 2026 15:27 UTC (Mon) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (2 responses)

> said in public that only the copyright owner can sue to redress GPL noncompliance

This seems to be a question of *law*, not the FSF's opinion of what they think the law should be. But regardless of their opinions, the legal landscape has changed considerably since the GPLv2 was written -- most prominent change being legally-enforced DRM that renders quite a bit of the GPL's "intent" effectively worthless.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 12, 2026 15:36 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> most prominent change being legally-enforced DRM that renders quite a bit of the GPL's "intent" effectively worthless.

Or does it render much DRM unlawful as applied to GPL-licenced code?

Cheers,
Wol

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 12, 2026 18:39 UTC (Mon) by SLi (subscriber, #53131) [Link]

> > said in public that only the copyright owner can sue to redress GPL noncompliance
> This seems to be a question of *law*, not the FSF's opinion of what they think the law should be. But regardless of their opinions, the legal landscape has changed considerably since the GPLv2 was written -- most prominent change being legally-enforced DRM that renders quite a bit of the GPL's "intent" effectively worthless.

It's not, really. A contract *can* usually deliberately create a right for a third party beneficiary to sue. Thus, the question here is whether GPL does, which goes to the intent of the parties. Intent of the parties can be a question of the law if the text is clear enough, but California allows evidence even against what seems like a clear meaning of a text.

I think you need to look at the intent in a more limited sense. It's not about "what we want to ultimately accomplish". The intent as relevant here, is much more mechanical: Did the parties intend to agree to grant third party beneficiaries the right to sue for specific performance. The "what we want to accomplish" part is relevant to answering that question, but the court ultimately wants to answer how the parties at the time would have answered that very specific question.

Now, there is, or rather was, an argument to be made that, in this specific case, this is something that could not be agreed at all. Vizio tried it and lost.

The SFC carefully styled the claim as a state contract law claim, not a Copyright Law claim. Copyright is exclusively federal; states cannot really add to it or remove from it. Vizio removed the case to a Federal Court, arguing that the claims are fully preempted by the Copyright Act. Essentially, "what is demanded here is sufficiently copyright-like that the states are preempted from doing that".

And that was a good try. The federal judge looked at the case and said that this demand for producing source code is different enough from the normal exclusive rights of the copyright owner that it can properly be analyzed under contract law. Remanded to state court.

Had Vizio won that claim—and I think it plausibly could have—the case would have been over. It would have been moved to the federal court. Then the judge would ask SFC "are you the copyright owner?". "No" -> Ok, you have no standing to sue; only the copyright owner has standing to sue under the Copyright Act.

Is the contract restricted to the buyers, or to the "any 3rd party" of the GPL?

Posted Jan 28, 2026 1:42 UTC (Wed) by developer122 (guest, #152928) [Link] (2 responses)

You're conflating two different things.

There is the contract describing the sale of the TV ("I give you money and you give me a TV") and the completely different *potential* contract talked about here: "I offer to give you the source code; I accept your offer of source code." The latter is the one the judge is considering, on the basis that there was a written offer for source code buried in the TV's menu.

One of the possibilities discussed in the article is that if it turns out an offer needs to be made before ordinary people can form the latter kind contract (and be able to sue over it), we end up right back where we started. Companies might willfully withhold source *and* not make a written offer, and only authors could sue them for it because ordinary people would need an offer to accept in order to later be able to sue for the code.

Not making a source code offer

Posted Jan 28, 2026 12:10 UTC (Wed) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (1 responses)

The risk of not making a source code offer, when it's common practice and clearly required by the license, is that you'll find yourself deemed to be a "wilful infringer", with associated higher penalties and lower burden of proof on the copyright holder (since the copyright holder now just has to prove infringement, not damages).

It would be quite hard for a company to argue that it did not know that the GPL required source code or an offer thereof nowadays, or to argue that it did not know that Linux was under the GPL, and not free to redistribute as a binary without source. But it's easy for a company to argue that it wasn't wilful infringement if it tried to comply, but turned out unable to do so when called on it.

Not making a source code offer

Posted Jan 28, 2026 13:00 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

And while copyright infringement is (aiui) a civil infringement in the US, under English law I think it's treated like trespass. As such, if you don't know you're infringing or have good grounds to believe "everything will be all right", it's a civil matter. If you "knew or should have known" permission would be refused, it becomes a criminal matter.

"everything will be alright" - things like postie doesn't ask permission to walk on your driveway because he assumes you want to get your post. You don't ask your friends for permission before you go round their house because you assume they'll say "come in!".

Whereas the signs "Trespassers will be prosecuted" are stating quite clearly that things *won't* be "all right", and placing you on notice that trespass will be treated as a criminal matter.

Cheers,
Wol


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