Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 7:41 UTC (Wed) by brunowolff (guest, #71160)
In reply to: Same as before by marcH
Parent article: Python Software Foundation withdraws security-related grant proposal

>> If you treat elections as multi-round games instead of one shot games

> The problem with multiple rounds is: you may choose someone more consensual but you're still electing a single person. That's OK for one president because there's only one slot to fill anyway. but you can do a much more representative job when you need to pick 600 people. It's not theoretical, many countries do a much better job already.

That comment was narrowly directed why voting for candidates expected to finish 3rd or lower makes sense under the current winner take all system.

I think having some sort of proportional voting system for assemblies would be an improvement. But I think you also want local representation as well as party representation, so it's going to be messy. (Things would probably work better if there weren't parties, but that isn't happening.)

Even without that change, I'd like to see approval voting combined with eliminating primaries. I think it would be hard to get that change as I have discussed this with smart friends on mine in different groups and they thought that that was crazy. Most of them knew about ranked voting systems, but didn't seem to be aware that there were significantly different versions of them and that all of them have issues where some property you'd normally like for a voting sysem to have are missing.

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Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:17 UTC (Wed) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (2 responses)

> I think having some sort of proportional voting system for assemblies would be an improvement. But I think you also want local representation as well as party representation, so it's going to be messy. (Things would probably work better if there weren't parties, but that isn't happening.)

Actually, I think for countries using FPTP (like the US/UK) there is an easy step: do Multi-Member Representation at city level. So instead of dividing a city like New York into districts that each elect one person, combine them all into one multi-member district with the same number of members for the whole city, but within the city it's proportional. Since city boundaries are already defined elsewhere you solve the gerrymandering problem entirely. Similarly, rural counties can be combined with similar surrounding counties.

There's no requirement that all regions have the same size.

The effect on the politics would be dramatic though. Adding just a few seats for smaller parties can significantly affect the balance of power. The whole current setup in the US is dependent on division and exclusion, and that becomes quite different if minor parties have a chance.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 19:52 UTC (Wed) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link] (1 responses)

To make this work in the USA, you would need to do it at the state level rather than city, because representatives are assigned at the state level. You would also need to do it for all states simultaneously rather than letting each state do it if they wanted to, because having some states with proportional representation and others with (potentially gerrymandered) districts would make a mess of Congress.

Same as before

Posted Oct 30, 2025 13:32 UTC (Thu) by taladar (subscriber, #68407) [Link]

Isn't e.g. the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Inter... already based on the ability to use different systems per state for the federal election systems?

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:17 UTC (Wed) by taladar (subscriber, #68407) [Link]

> But I think you also want local representation as well as party representation

I am not so sure about that. What makes geographic proximity to a candidate a good proxy for quality as a representative? Sure, a small subset of political issues are related to local concerns. However, many of those are very much topics where the local interests are split into several groups too, e.g. the rich factory owner who wants to pollute and the local residents who want a clean coastline.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:18 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (5 responses)

> But I think you also want local representation as well as party representation, so it's going to be messy.

In the likes of the Scottish Parliament elections, you have 2 ballots. One where you have a list of candidates for the local constituency, and a second "party" list of regional candidates. The local constituency vote is first-past-the-post, the regional/party list is D'Hondt.

To be honest I think it's tedious and over-complex, and somewhat the product of the UK's sentimental love for FPTP. I think the Irish system of just having 2 to 5 candidates per constituency (changes according to population distribution) and just having one ballot for them voting by PR-STV is much simpler and better.

I also like the fact Ireland's count is entirely manual pencil and paper, conducted in sports halls (school, GAA, whatever) all across the country, where anyone can go watch and with independent "tally men" watching over the tables and keeping their own scores as the count goes on - which is generally done in half a day.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 13:46 UTC (Wed) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link] (4 responses)

Obligatory "this is not aimed at any specific person" editorial comment. This has strayed well far away from the topic at hand at this point. In the interest of keeping the comment stream related to LWN topics, let's stop here with discussions on currency, electoral systems, etc.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 14:44 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (1 responses)

So let's get back to DEI and the US culture wars?

/me ducks ;)

(Direction otherwise taken FWIW - just couldn't resist this joke).

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 14:50 UTC (Wed) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link]

That's not quite what I meant...

We all, or at least most of us, no doubt have opinions about those things. But they're certainly not going to be solved here, and it's exceedingly unlikely that any minds will be changed one way or the other.

I am happy to have those conversations over beers at any conferences that I attend, though. And, should that person or persons be at our "maniacal supporter" level, I'll even buy the first beer (or beverage of their choice).

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 16:42 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (1 responses)

> let's stop here with discussions on currency, electoral systems, etc.

Just for the record: comparing electoral systems is off-topic and I tried to avoid getting into the weeds. But the current, "winner takes all" voting system does play a major role in the current DEI and culture wars. "Win, win, win!" Discarding votes is an essential element in the culture of not listening to each other, rejecting compromise, living in echo chambers, etc. If that was ever needed, the recent, "extreme Gerrymandering" efforts clearly demonstrate that connection. Who cares what you think? The next election will let us ignore you anyway! Let's tweak the voting system and make it even more broken to make sure.

Beyond voting systems, ignoring or cherry-picking numbers and data in general is also a major element of every DEI debate and culture war. It is required to have an alternate reality. More on one side but not just one side.

Maybe I'm getting senile and nostalgic, but I feel like: people never found data fun, but there used to be some respect for science and some vague desire to share a common reality. Not anymore, at least not on the most popular mob media. The engineers around here should at least take notice.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 16:47 UTC (Wed) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link]

Understood, thanks for the explanation. At any rate, we can wind it up here and move on to more relevant ~~arguments~~ topics.