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cutting off their nose

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 27, 2025 19:16 UTC (Mon) by corbet (editor, #1)
In reply to: cutting off their nose by EmptyJay
Parent article: Python Software Foundation withdraws security-related grant proposal

This comment was only let through moderation after a long internal discussion. It was allowed, despite a (probably willful) misrepresentation of what DEI is about because we do not believe in trying to suppress points of view.

But it is worth saying that "judge people by their abilities" is exactly what a good DEI program is about — ensuring that all people can bring their abilities, regardless of what they look like or how well they chose their parents.

Anyway, moderation of further discussion will be tight; if you wish to participate, please be sure that you are furthering the discussion in a useful and respectful way.


to post comments

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 27, 2025 21:19 UTC (Mon) by jhe (subscriber, #164815) [Link] (2 responses)

DEI Programs work by supporting selected, disadvantaged people. Being disadvantaged is difficult to measure directly, so the these programs have to rely on proxy measurements. Because people get disadvantaged based on their looks or heritage, looks and heritage are good proxies to measure being disadvantaged.

I'm not implying whether this is "bad" or "working as intended", but its happening.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 12:04 UTC (Tue) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> Being disadvantaged is difficult to measure directly, so the these programs have to rely on proxy measurements.

It's incomplete, not perfect either, not possible in every situation and not mutually exclusive but how about this extraordinary idea: gauging disadvantaged people by their... lack of money!? Too direct and not enough virtue signaling? Suspiciously successful in some other countries?

Note the past decades of affirmative action in college admissions have been called "affirmative action for the rich" by the NY Times which isn't exactly leaning on the right side:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/27/podcasts/the-daily/col... + many more articles on that topic.

PS: I totally understand why the PSF cannot take such a high risk.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 14:48 UTC (Tue) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link]

These are not mutually exclusive.

>DEI Programs work by supporting selected, disadvantaged people.

who have demonstrated the technical ability, but for some other reason have difficulty contributing. That's the selection: their ability. The people with the ability that aren't disadvantaged aren't in scope (obviously).

You either accept that:
* There is an intrinsic relationship between ability and being able to contribute to open-source, or
* There are people who have the ability, but can't for some reason that can be ameliorated.

If your argument is that DEI programs are spending money on people that don't actually have the technical ability, that's a different argument. I've seen no evidence of that though.

DEI programs target people who have technical ability AND are disadvantaged. Both criteria are important, you can't focus on one selection criteria and pretend the other isn't relevant.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 12:31 UTC (Tue) by AntiISO (guest, #179626) [Link] (7 responses)

But it is worth saying that "judge people by their abilities" is exactly what a good DEI program is about — ensuring that all people can bring their abilities, regardless of what they look like or how well they chose their parents.

-----

This is your good faith reading of the "book cover".

This is also what any reasonable person would expect before opening the book, and what any reasonable person would and should support.

But as it happens, your good faith expectation couldn't be more wrong about the book's content.

The person who authored the most adopted code of conduct in software projects, including the linux kernel itself, that very same person also authored a document that is literally titled "The Post-Meritocracy Manifesto". That second book's cover should give you a better idea about the previous book's content.

Not that I consider it relevant, but I happen to belong to a "sub-group" that would theoretically benefit from such "programs". But living in a "post-meritocratic" world is the last thing I want to see happen.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 14:47 UTC (Tue) by niner (guest, #26151) [Link] (3 responses)

It stands out to me that you advise not judging DEI by its "book cover" and instead going into detail, while simultaneously judging the Post-Meritocracy Manifest solely on its "cover" and refusing to engage in its actual content. If you'd do that you'd quickly come across this sentence: "It is time that we as an industry abandon the notion that merit is something that can be measured objectively, that can be pursued on equal terms by every individual, and that can ever be distributed fairly."

This alone makes it clear that this manifest is not at all arguing for completely ignoring merit. Instead it's based on the realization that merit cannot be measured objectively. This ties it back directly to DEI, because it's clear that we perceive contributions as more or less important not only on the contribution itself but also because of who contributed it. And there we do tend to value those higher that are more like us. So DEI is a way to _fix_ meritocracy, not to replace it.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 15:38 UTC (Tue) by AntiISO (guest, #179626) [Link] (2 responses)

The main point is, the grand parent's comment assumption:

> But it is worth saying that "judge people by their abilities" is exactly what a good DEI program is about

is outright rejected by that manifesto, as "abilities" (a.k.a. merit) is argued to be just

> a form of recognition, an acknowledgement that “this person is valuable insofar as they are like me.”

I have no interest in showing/arguing what I (and presumably anyone who hasn't been "hypernormalized" in certain echo chambers) humbly consider clear illogical fanatical bullshittery in that document, which I read in full the day it was made public btw. What's relevant here is that that is the set beliefs being operated on, as you yourself acknowledged, with the core one being that merit is apparently immeasurable.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 18:00 UTC (Tue) by stijn (subscriber, #570) [Link]

How much of this is people taking strong positions, engaging with worst faith interpretations of statements, focusing on the loudest and most polarising voices, and trying to win, shut down or diminish a debate rather than gain an understanding of why there is a debate, where the other person is coming from, and allowing for nuance? I have a hunch that there is common ground to be found, but when you write 'clear illogical fanatical bullshittery' what's the point of engaging? Have you read the contribution by twiens among these comments? It is observant.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:18 UTC (Wed) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

the core one being that merit is apparently immeasurable

I don't think there's an absolute “merit” scale where if you score highly everybody will be falling over themselves to roll out the red carpet for you. You can presumably be a priceless asset to project A based on your outstanding technical capabilities, vast experience, pleasant personality, and burning zeal to contribute to project A, and still be nobody in particular to project B based on exactly the same traits (possibly just because you're a crackshot Rust programmer but project B happens to be based on Java). Or your combination of traits may be just what project C is looking for while project D already has loads of other people who do what you're doing, and (while they'd be generally happy to have you chip in) would really welcome a different type of volunteer who could fill a real gap. So even if “merit” is in fact “measurable”, the same yardsticks don't seem to apply everywhere.

Props to the Python Software Foundation for standing up to its principles. Money is nice but it is more important to be welcoming and to encourage and enable people who want to contribute, regardless of their background.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 17:19 UTC (Tue) by excors (subscriber, #95769) [Link] (2 responses)

> The person who authored the most adopted code of conduct in software projects, including the linux kernel itself, that very same person also authored a document that is literally titled "The Post-Meritocracy Manifesto". That second book's cover should give you a better idea about the previous book's content.

I don't see why you're implying we should be surprised or outraged about that. It's saying we can't objectively measure "merit", because it's such a vaguely defined term that in practice it's usually twisted (intentionally or unintentionally) to mean "people like me". And even if we could measure it, we shouldn't judge people on that measurement, because open source communities are social groups of humans, and groups benefit from having a range of skills and viewpoints, and humans have value beyond their ability to write code, so we should embrace that value rather than dismissing anyone who doesn't fit our narrow objective criteria.

That seems entirely consistent with the Contributor Covenant: it says communities should be welcoming and respectful to all. It doesn't say this only applies to the objectively best C hackers. The kernel's CoC explicitly calls out "levels of experience", which will be a big part of any attempt to measure merit - inexperienced programmers will write poorer code, but the kernel says they should still be welcomed and respected. That lets them contribute to the project now, and gain experience and contribute even more later, which is pretty obviously a good thing for the group.

(Incidentally, the term "meritocracy" was coined in a satirical, dystopian novel, so it seems weird to hold it up as an ideal that cannot be criticised or improved upon. It has benefits over some other models, but it has always been an imperfect concept.)

In any case, I think Post-Meritocracy is a significantly different thing to corporate DEI and you shouldn't conflate them. Companies can't welcome everyone equally: a job opening will have dozens of applicants and they have to make binary judgments on who to accept, so there's an unavoidable exclusivity. The best they can do is refine their criteria to reflect what's actually good for the group (avoiding the simple, selfish criteria of "people like me"), and identify and minimise their biases when evaluating those criteria, and support the successful applicants to work as effectively as possible based on their individual needs, which are the processes that will be called DEI (and that the government gets upset about).

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 29, 2025 0:10 UTC (Wed) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link] (1 responses)

A crucial point is that the value of any member is relative to the needs of their organization. A good team needs people with a wide range of skills. If you focus exclusively on one skill set as the most valuable, you'll wind up with a team that can only do one kind of thing. If instead you try to get a well rounded group with a wide range of skills, you can do more kinds of things. It's not that, say, a technical writer is more "meritorious" than a programmer, but a team with only programmers might benefit more by adding someone to bring their documentation up to date than they would by adding another programmer. A rock band consisting of four lead guitar players might benefit from trading one for a drummer, even if the drummer isn't quite as good a musician.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:17 UTC (Wed) by AntiISO (guest, #179626) [Link]

This sounds like a variation of "a solution in search of a problem". Except here, it sounds like a rationalizing attempt at retrofitting a "solution" into an imaginary unsolved problem.

When the task is technical writing, a technical writer very much has more merit than a programmer who is not good at it, although technical writing still requires at least a minimal level of topic/field expertise obviously. If there is a problem finding the right people for that job description, then that's what needs to be improved, measuring the "merit" of technical writers.

But neither did humanity at large somehow had a comprehensive problem groking such banality until a decade or two ago (i.e. recognizing the importance of job descriptions and different skill sets). Nor is nuking the concept of "merit" needed, or presents an actual workable solution in any way, to solve this supposedly existing problem.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 13:55 UTC (Tue) by tekNico (subscriber, #22) [Link] (4 responses)

Jonathan, your inability to see through the DEI swindle is bad enough, the accusation of “probably willful misrepresentation” unacceptable. Having to depend on your goodwill to not suppress points of view because of your misguided opinions is unacceptable too.

I’m sure you’ll find plenty of reasons why this comment is not useful or respectful enough, so feel free to censor it. I’m afraid my multi-decade subscription is over regardless. Thank you for your service and good luck.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 14:47 UTC (Tue) by stijn (subscriber, #570) [Link]

Like any human endeavour, not all DEI programs will be flawless. I wonder if people are mutually antagonising by the presence of loud voices in the 'other camp'. It seems fairly self-evident to me that self-selection in in-groups is pervasive throughout society, and trying to change that is to the benefit of everyone. For decades now I've been bemused by the stance that software engineering or free software is purely a meritocracy. It comes with a culture all of its own. I suggest to walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 14:48 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> Having to depend on your goodwill to not suppress points of view because of your misguided opinions is unacceptable too.

I refer you to xkcd #1357.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 29, 2025 0:11 UTC (Wed) by intelfx (subscriber, #130118) [Link]

>> Having to depend on your goodwill to not suppress points of view because of your misguided opinions is unacceptable too.
> I refer you to xkcd #1357.

Nobody demanded "free speech" here. As I see it, GP fully acknowledges the right of the platform owner to suppress whatever they deem fit. To acknowledge someone's right to do something is not the same as to agree with them or to choose to support them in this.

I don't think your reference is relevant in any way (other than to shut down someone who you don't agree with).

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 29, 2025 11:23 UTC (Wed) by nirbheek (subscriber, #54111) [Link]

> I’m afraid my multi-decade subscription is over regardless.

I wish fewer people would engage in this kind of knee-jerk reaction to someone expressing an opinion based on their experience that they disagree with.

We used to all be united by FOSS regardless of petty differences of opinion. It is sad to see that change.

What makes a successful program

Posted Oct 28, 2025 13:55 UTC (Tue) by jengelh (subscriber, #33263) [Link]

But it so happens that we live in a world driven by economics, not (just) abilities.
Imagine LWN had writers who unavoidably shut down the server repeatedly because of an unmitigatable disadvantage tied to their writing prowess.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:18 UTC (Wed) by Phantom_Hoover (subscriber, #167627) [Link] (2 responses)

I mean you're right that the parent comment was a bad-faith strawman of the opposing position, but you're verging on the same thing yourself characterising DEI as just a common-sense procedure to judge people on their abilities rather than their looks. DEI as constituted in early 2020s discourse is a specific political programme riddled with completely legitimate controversies. The ideology is embedded into the name of the concept, in the use of the word "equity" over "equality", a choice which advocates made very clear was all about focusing on equality of outcome as a preferred ideal rather than equality of opportunity. If you're not going to believe some random commenter that this is a real point of contention, take it from a professor of political philosophy: https://josephheath.substack.com/p/why-philosophers-hate-...

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 29, 2025 17:59 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> DEI as constituted in early 2020s discourse is a specific political programme riddled with completely legitimate controversies

I think you meant to say: "Decades-old DEI practices were rebranded by a specific political party in the early 2020s so it could be used as wedge issue"

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 29, 2025 18:01 UTC (Wed) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link]

As with several others - I modded this through, but let's really end the thread here. There's little chance that anybody is going to change their minds about this topic as a result of comments here. Let's try to stick to things that will be useful.

Obligatory: This is not strictly aimed at pizza, I am simply placing the comment here in hopes it will be seen.


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