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Python Software Foundation withdraws security-related grant proposal

The Python Software Foundation, earlier this year, successfully obtained a $1.5 million grant from the US National Science Foundation "to address structural vulnerabilities in Python and PyPI". The actual grant came with some strings attached though, in the form of a requirement not to pursue diversity, equity, and inclusion programs. So the Foundation has withdrawn the proposal rather than agree to terms that run counter to its own mission.

We're disappointed to have been put in the position where we had to make this decision, because we believe our proposed project would offer invaluable advances to the Python and greater open source community, protecting millions of PyPI users from attempted supply-chain attacks. The proposed project would create new tools for automated proactive review of all packages uploaded to PyPI, rather than the current process of reactive-only review.


to post comments

Bravo

Posted Oct 27, 2025 17:07 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (33 responses)

It's very sad when granting agencies impose a completely unrelated political agenda on researchers. It's unfortunate that the PSF will lose out on $1.5M, but kudos for them to sticking to their principles.

I don't use Python myself, but I've made a donation to the PSF as a tiny offset to the loss they have incurred.

Bravo

Posted Oct 27, 2025 17:46 UTC (Mon) by 0xilly (subscriber, #172315) [Link]

100% I'm not the biggest fan of Python I'd go as far to say as I actively dislike it but I just gave them a donation as well.

Bravo

Posted Oct 27, 2025 18:39 UTC (Mon) by jhe (subscriber, #164815) [Link] (5 responses)

I dislike that you threw the "completely unrelated political agenda" stone when none of the things that the NSF now prohibits are related to language programming. Why would the PSF have a conflicting mission in the first places?

Bravo

Posted Oct 27, 2025 19:02 UTC (Mon) by jake (editor, #205) [Link]

> Why would the PSF have a conflicting mission in the first places?

It doesn't, but that does not mean that the PSF can be unconcerned about the possibility that some of its efforts unrelated to the grant may be arbitrarily determined to cross some unwritten "no DEI" rule. A small organization cannot take the risk that funds already spent are clawed back.

Meanwhile, we are keeping a close eye on comments on this item. This is not aimed at "jhe" in particular, but all of the commenters. Please pay close attention to the guidelines in the comment editor before posting.

thanks,

jake

Bravo

Posted Oct 27, 2025 19:32 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (1 responses)

Here's the thing: An organization like the PSF might have bylaws or policies that are not directly related to language programming. The NSF should not be considering those things when it decides whether or not to fund an organization, just so long as those bylaws or policies don't actually break the law.

Letting a funding agency dictate unrelated aspects of how an organization is run, especially with the threat of having funding clawed back if the agency decides it doesn't like how the organization ended up being run, is much too high a risk. It's a poison pill.

Bravo

Posted Oct 27, 2025 20:09 UTC (Mon) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> NSF should not be considering those things when it decides whether or not to fund an organization, just so long as those bylaws or policies don't actually break the law.

Quite a few organizations only officially instituted DEI (and many other "unrelated to the mission") policies because they were effectively required to do in order to receive governmental funding (including tax relief). Those were either a direct requirement of the laws that created said funding, or court decisions that produced binding case law (usually stemming from the "equal protection" clause of the 14th Amendment)

It is not an exaggeration to say that this government represents a complete reversal of literally decades of carefully constructed and *heavily* adjudicated policies. It remains to be seen what the courts will ultimately do, but I am saddened to see so many of my rural neighbors cheering the abrupt end of so many programs that their livelihood (and often, entire way of life) is utterly dependent upon.

Strings aren't always bad

Posted Oct 27, 2025 21:51 UTC (Mon) by ringerc (subscriber, #3071) [Link] (1 responses)

> I dislike that you threw the "completely unrelated political agenda" stone when none of the things that the NSF now prohibits are related to language programming.

Grants are routinely tied to requirements and objectives that are seemingly unrelated to the task the grant seeks to further. Often those seemingly side-requirements are a significant motivator for the grantor - the grant is there to encourage an organisation in a direction it might not otherwise go.

For example, grants may have terms that prohibit an organisation from working with nations and other organisations the grantor deems to be criminal, hostile or embargoed.

I don't think such terms are inherently bad, and they can IMO even be very positive. Though I happen to strongly disagree with the attitudes and beliefs this particular set of grant strings seeks to promote, and am relieved the PSF rejected the proposal.

Strings aren't always bad

Posted Oct 28, 2025 21:23 UTC (Tue) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link]

A big complaint here is that the terms PSF is objecting to were added after they submitted their proposal. They spent a lot of time and effort applying for the grant, only to discover it now had terms they found so objectionable that they decided to give up the grant rather than accept them. I could understand objecting to the bait and switch even if I supported the rules they were trying to enforce.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 27, 2025 19:15 UTC (Mon) by EmptyJay (guest, #180039) [Link] (21 responses)

They rather forgo a million and a half than agree to judge people by their abilities and not by what they look like.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 27, 2025 19:16 UTC (Mon) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (20 responses)

This comment was only let through moderation after a long internal discussion. It was allowed, despite a (probably willful) misrepresentation of what DEI is about because we do not believe in trying to suppress points of view.

But it is worth saying that "judge people by their abilities" is exactly what a good DEI program is about — ensuring that all people can bring their abilities, regardless of what they look like or how well they chose their parents.

Anyway, moderation of further discussion will be tight; if you wish to participate, please be sure that you are furthering the discussion in a useful and respectful way.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 27, 2025 21:19 UTC (Mon) by jhe (subscriber, #164815) [Link] (2 responses)

DEI Programs work by supporting selected, disadvantaged people. Being disadvantaged is difficult to measure directly, so the these programs have to rely on proxy measurements. Because people get disadvantaged based on their looks or heritage, looks and heritage are good proxies to measure being disadvantaged.

I'm not implying whether this is "bad" or "working as intended", but its happening.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 12:04 UTC (Tue) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> Being disadvantaged is difficult to measure directly, so the these programs have to rely on proxy measurements.

It's incomplete, not perfect either, not possible in every situation and not mutually exclusive but how about this extraordinary idea: gauging disadvantaged people by their... lack of money!? Too direct and not enough virtue signaling? Suspiciously successful in some other countries?

Note the past decades of affirmative action in college admissions have been called "affirmative action for the rich" by the NY Times which isn't exactly leaning on the right side:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/27/podcasts/the-daily/col... + many more articles on that topic.

PS: I totally understand why the PSF cannot take such a high risk.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 14:48 UTC (Tue) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link]

These are not mutually exclusive.

>DEI Programs work by supporting selected, disadvantaged people.

who have demonstrated the technical ability, but for some other reason have difficulty contributing. That's the selection: their ability. The people with the ability that aren't disadvantaged aren't in scope (obviously).

You either accept that:
* There is an intrinsic relationship between ability and being able to contribute to open-source, or
* There are people who have the ability, but can't for some reason that can be ameliorated.

If your argument is that DEI programs are spending money on people that don't actually have the technical ability, that's a different argument. I've seen no evidence of that though.

DEI programs target people who have technical ability AND are disadvantaged. Both criteria are important, you can't focus on one selection criteria and pretend the other isn't relevant.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 12:31 UTC (Tue) by AntiISO (guest, #179626) [Link] (7 responses)

But it is worth saying that "judge people by their abilities" is exactly what a good DEI program is about — ensuring that all people can bring their abilities, regardless of what they look like or how well they chose their parents.

-----

This is your good faith reading of the "book cover".

This is also what any reasonable person would expect before opening the book, and what any reasonable person would and should support.

But as it happens, your good faith expectation couldn't be more wrong about the book's content.

The person who authored the most adopted code of conduct in software projects, including the linux kernel itself, that very same person also authored a document that is literally titled "The Post-Meritocracy Manifesto". That second book's cover should give you a better idea about the previous book's content.

Not that I consider it relevant, but I happen to belong to a "sub-group" that would theoretically benefit from such "programs". But living in a "post-meritocratic" world is the last thing I want to see happen.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 14:47 UTC (Tue) by niner (guest, #26151) [Link] (3 responses)

It stands out to me that you advise not judging DEI by its "book cover" and instead going into detail, while simultaneously judging the Post-Meritocracy Manifest solely on its "cover" and refusing to engage in its actual content. If you'd do that you'd quickly come across this sentence: "It is time that we as an industry abandon the notion that merit is something that can be measured objectively, that can be pursued on equal terms by every individual, and that can ever be distributed fairly."

This alone makes it clear that this manifest is not at all arguing for completely ignoring merit. Instead it's based on the realization that merit cannot be measured objectively. This ties it back directly to DEI, because it's clear that we perceive contributions as more or less important not only on the contribution itself but also because of who contributed it. And there we do tend to value those higher that are more like us. So DEI is a way to _fix_ meritocracy, not to replace it.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 15:38 UTC (Tue) by AntiISO (guest, #179626) [Link] (2 responses)

The main point is, the grand parent's comment assumption:

> But it is worth saying that "judge people by their abilities" is exactly what a good DEI program is about

is outright rejected by that manifesto, as "abilities" (a.k.a. merit) is argued to be just

> a form of recognition, an acknowledgement that “this person is valuable insofar as they are like me.”

I have no interest in showing/arguing what I (and presumably anyone who hasn't been "hypernormalized" in certain echo chambers) humbly consider clear illogical fanatical bullshittery in that document, which I read in full the day it was made public btw. What's relevant here is that that is the set beliefs being operated on, as you yourself acknowledged, with the core one being that merit is apparently immeasurable.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 18:00 UTC (Tue) by stijn (subscriber, #570) [Link]

How much of this is people taking strong positions, engaging with worst faith interpretations of statements, focusing on the loudest and most polarising voices, and trying to win, shut down or diminish a debate rather than gain an understanding of why there is a debate, where the other person is coming from, and allowing for nuance? I have a hunch that there is common ground to be found, but when you write 'clear illogical fanatical bullshittery' what's the point of engaging? Have you read the contribution by twiens among these comments? It is observant.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:18 UTC (Wed) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

the core one being that merit is apparently immeasurable

I don't think there's an absolute “merit” scale where if you score highly everybody will be falling over themselves to roll out the red carpet for you. You can presumably be a priceless asset to project A based on your outstanding technical capabilities, vast experience, pleasant personality, and burning zeal to contribute to project A, and still be nobody in particular to project B based on exactly the same traits (possibly just because you're a crackshot Rust programmer but project B happens to be based on Java). Or your combination of traits may be just what project C is looking for while project D already has loads of other people who do what you're doing, and (while they'd be generally happy to have you chip in) would really welcome a different type of volunteer who could fill a real gap. So even if “merit” is in fact “measurable”, the same yardsticks don't seem to apply everywhere.

Props to the Python Software Foundation for standing up to its principles. Money is nice but it is more important to be welcoming and to encourage and enable people who want to contribute, regardless of their background.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 17:19 UTC (Tue) by excors (subscriber, #95769) [Link] (2 responses)

> The person who authored the most adopted code of conduct in software projects, including the linux kernel itself, that very same person also authored a document that is literally titled "The Post-Meritocracy Manifesto". That second book's cover should give you a better idea about the previous book's content.

I don't see why you're implying we should be surprised or outraged about that. It's saying we can't objectively measure "merit", because it's such a vaguely defined term that in practice it's usually twisted (intentionally or unintentionally) to mean "people like me". And even if we could measure it, we shouldn't judge people on that measurement, because open source communities are social groups of humans, and groups benefit from having a range of skills and viewpoints, and humans have value beyond their ability to write code, so we should embrace that value rather than dismissing anyone who doesn't fit our narrow objective criteria.

That seems entirely consistent with the Contributor Covenant: it says communities should be welcoming and respectful to all. It doesn't say this only applies to the objectively best C hackers. The kernel's CoC explicitly calls out "levels of experience", which will be a big part of any attempt to measure merit - inexperienced programmers will write poorer code, but the kernel says they should still be welcomed and respected. That lets them contribute to the project now, and gain experience and contribute even more later, which is pretty obviously a good thing for the group.

(Incidentally, the term "meritocracy" was coined in a satirical, dystopian novel, so it seems weird to hold it up as an ideal that cannot be criticised or improved upon. It has benefits over some other models, but it has always been an imperfect concept.)

In any case, I think Post-Meritocracy is a significantly different thing to corporate DEI and you shouldn't conflate them. Companies can't welcome everyone equally: a job opening will have dozens of applicants and they have to make binary judgments on who to accept, so there's an unavoidable exclusivity. The best they can do is refine their criteria to reflect what's actually good for the group (avoiding the simple, selfish criteria of "people like me"), and identify and minimise their biases when evaluating those criteria, and support the successful applicants to work as effectively as possible based on their individual needs, which are the processes that will be called DEI (and that the government gets upset about).

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 29, 2025 0:10 UTC (Wed) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link] (1 responses)

A crucial point is that the value of any member is relative to the needs of their organization. A good team needs people with a wide range of skills. If you focus exclusively on one skill set as the most valuable, you'll wind up with a team that can only do one kind of thing. If instead you try to get a well rounded group with a wide range of skills, you can do more kinds of things. It's not that, say, a technical writer is more "meritorious" than a programmer, but a team with only programmers might benefit more by adding someone to bring their documentation up to date than they would by adding another programmer. A rock band consisting of four lead guitar players might benefit from trading one for a drummer, even if the drummer isn't quite as good a musician.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:17 UTC (Wed) by AntiISO (guest, #179626) [Link]

This sounds like a variation of "a solution in search of a problem". Except here, it sounds like a rationalizing attempt at retrofitting a "solution" into an imaginary unsolved problem.

When the task is technical writing, a technical writer very much has more merit than a programmer who is not good at it, although technical writing still requires at least a minimal level of topic/field expertise obviously. If there is a problem finding the right people for that job description, then that's what needs to be improved, measuring the "merit" of technical writers.

But neither did humanity at large somehow had a comprehensive problem groking such banality until a decade or two ago (i.e. recognizing the importance of job descriptions and different skill sets). Nor is nuking the concept of "merit" needed, or presents an actual workable solution in any way, to solve this supposedly existing problem.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 13:55 UTC (Tue) by tekNico (subscriber, #22) [Link] (4 responses)

Jonathan, your inability to see through the DEI swindle is bad enough, the accusation of “probably willful misrepresentation” unacceptable. Having to depend on your goodwill to not suppress points of view because of your misguided opinions is unacceptable too.

I’m sure you’ll find plenty of reasons why this comment is not useful or respectful enough, so feel free to censor it. I’m afraid my multi-decade subscription is over regardless. Thank you for your service and good luck.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 14:47 UTC (Tue) by stijn (subscriber, #570) [Link]

Like any human endeavour, not all DEI programs will be flawless. I wonder if people are mutually antagonising by the presence of loud voices in the 'other camp'. It seems fairly self-evident to me that self-selection in in-groups is pervasive throughout society, and trying to change that is to the benefit of everyone. For decades now I've been bemused by the stance that software engineering or free software is purely a meritocracy. It comes with a culture all of its own. I suggest to walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 28, 2025 14:48 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> Having to depend on your goodwill to not suppress points of view because of your misguided opinions is unacceptable too.

I refer you to xkcd #1357.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 29, 2025 0:11 UTC (Wed) by intelfx (subscriber, #130118) [Link]

>> Having to depend on your goodwill to not suppress points of view because of your misguided opinions is unacceptable too.
> I refer you to xkcd #1357.

Nobody demanded "free speech" here. As I see it, GP fully acknowledges the right of the platform owner to suppress whatever they deem fit. To acknowledge someone's right to do something is not the same as to agree with them or to choose to support them in this.

I don't think your reference is relevant in any way (other than to shut down someone who you don't agree with).

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 29, 2025 11:23 UTC (Wed) by nirbheek (subscriber, #54111) [Link]

> I’m afraid my multi-decade subscription is over regardless.

I wish fewer people would engage in this kind of knee-jerk reaction to someone expressing an opinion based on their experience that they disagree with.

We used to all be united by FOSS regardless of petty differences of opinion. It is sad to see that change.

What makes a successful program

Posted Oct 28, 2025 13:55 UTC (Tue) by jengelh (subscriber, #33263) [Link]

But it so happens that we live in a world driven by economics, not (just) abilities.
Imagine LWN had writers who unavoidably shut down the server repeatedly because of an unmitigatable disadvantage tied to their writing prowess.

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:18 UTC (Wed) by Phantom_Hoover (subscriber, #167627) [Link] (2 responses)

I mean you're right that the parent comment was a bad-faith strawman of the opposing position, but you're verging on the same thing yourself characterising DEI as just a common-sense procedure to judge people on their abilities rather than their looks. DEI as constituted in early 2020s discourse is a specific political programme riddled with completely legitimate controversies. The ideology is embedded into the name of the concept, in the use of the word "equity" over "equality", a choice which advocates made very clear was all about focusing on equality of outcome as a preferred ideal rather than equality of opportunity. If you're not going to believe some random commenter that this is a real point of contention, take it from a professor of political philosophy: https://josephheath.substack.com/p/why-philosophers-hate-...

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 29, 2025 17:59 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> DEI as constituted in early 2020s discourse is a specific political programme riddled with completely legitimate controversies

I think you meant to say: "Decades-old DEI practices were rebranded by a specific political party in the early 2020s so it could be used as wedge issue"

cutting off their nose

Posted Oct 29, 2025 18:01 UTC (Wed) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link]

As with several others - I modded this through, but let's really end the thread here. There's little chance that anybody is going to change their minds about this topic as a result of comments here. Let's try to stick to things that will be useful.

Obligatory: This is not strictly aimed at pizza, I am simply placing the comment here in hopes it will be seen.

Bravo

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:18 UTC (Wed) by Phantom_Hoover (subscriber, #167627) [Link] (2 responses)

Granting agencies have been requiring DEI statements and policies as a condition for funding for a long time; if it's "imposing a political agenda" to make DEI policies forbidden, so too is making them mandatory.

Bravo

Posted Oct 29, 2025 16:49 UTC (Wed) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (1 responses)

What sort of DEI policies, exactly, have been required? AFAIK, governments have simply asked organizations not to discriminate on a number of bases, including sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, skin color, religion, national origin, etc.

The problem is that (for example) an organization with a policy against discrimination on the basis of gender identity or sexual orientation would run afoul of the current US administration's rules.

I also stand by my contention that if an organization has a policy that's (1) not related to the technical things it wants funding for, and (2) is legal, then the government has no business interfering.

Bravo

Posted Oct 29, 2025 16:52 UTC (Wed) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link]

Modding this one through, but we've strayed a bit off topic and are getting into an argument between folks that is unlikely to change any minds or be useful for most folks watching the comment stream.

Obligatory comment: this is not aimed specifically at dskoll, but I am placing the comment here so that it's seen. No further comments are needed here. Thanks.

Bravo

Posted Oct 29, 2025 13:48 UTC (Wed) by Flozza (subscriber, #170294) [Link]

Thanks for the suggestion. Made a donation, too.

Confused

Posted Oct 27, 2025 18:38 UTC (Mon) by clugstj (subscriber, #4020) [Link] (37 responses)

I am confused as to how "diversity, equality, and inclusion" programs would address "structural vulnerabilities in Python and PyPl"?

Confused

Posted Oct 27, 2025 18:48 UTC (Mon) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (1 responses)

Speaking only for myself, but it seems that going out of their way to ensure they are bringing in developers from the widest talent pool possible would be good for Python in all kinds of ways.

Diversity is *Good*

Posted Oct 28, 2025 12:31 UTC (Tue) by pwfxq (subscriber, #84695) [Link]

Many times in my own life someone from a different perspective than me (Gender, sexuality, experience, culture, etc) has shown me a different viewpoint to a point/topic/situation and it made me realise how valuable diversity is in opening my eyes to other possibilities. We need more diversity. Congrats to the PSF for sticking to their principles.

Confused

Posted Oct 27, 2025 18:50 UTC (Mon) by mikapfl (subscriber, #84646) [Link] (5 responses)

Nobody said that
> "diversity, equality, and inclusion" programs would address "structural vulnerabilities in Python and PyPl"

Instead, the PSF says that promoting "diversity, equality, and inclusion" are part of their mission, as well as making Python and PyPI safe. People, and organizations, can have more than one aim at the same time.

Confused

Posted Oct 27, 2025 19:32 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (4 responses)

Precisely.

Much as I hate all this "inclusivity" crap, I read far too many stories of programming involving cliques, some people actively driving others away, Public School initiation-rite-type behaviour (that's UK Public Schools, not US public schools - completely opposite meaning).

I'd much rather have what I call "positive anti-discrimination", but that's not that much different from "diversity, equality and inclusion". Probably just a different emphasis but targetting the same end (and probably with a slightly different outcome, but not much).

We NEED anti-discrimination programs, so to have grant conditions that forbid that sort of behaviour ...

Cheers,
Wol

Confused

Posted Oct 28, 2025 3:30 UTC (Tue) by ktkaffee (subscriber, #112877) [Link] (3 responses)

I don't get how you can say all that, that I agree with, but say that you hate "inclusivity crap"?

Confused

Posted Oct 28, 2025 12:06 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (2 responses)

> I don't get how you can say all that, that I agree with, but say that you hate "inclusivity crap"?

Easy. I'm not American!

Rightly or wrongly, all this comes over as the Americans dealing with a (pretty much) uniquely American problem.

And when it's exported over here, it's making matters WORSE, not better.

I believe in meritocracy. I'm all for changing recruitment so that it filters for the best candidates. Etc etc.

I've been on the wrong end of "minority entitlement" ...

But when I'm watching English Politics become more and more fascist and racist, it alienates me more and more, and makes me more and more glad I don't identify as English. The Caribbean community are wonderful and are always happy when I identify as Jamaican, despite being completely the wrong colour ... and my flag is the blue-and-while saltire, not the red cross on white.

Cheers,
Wol

Confused

Posted Oct 28, 2025 18:20 UTC (Tue) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (1 responses)

> Rightly or wrongly, all this comes over as the Americans dealing with a (pretty much) uniquely American problem.

I have cited this survey before, and I will do so again. Over 80% of Italians had a negative view of the Romani (or Roma) people in 2019,[1] and several other countries were not far behind that mark. I was also able to find numerous older reports about many different kinds of anti-Romani discrimination practiced throughout Europe, with [2] being a representative example from 2011. To be fair, things appear to be somewhat better in Western Europe, and the situation may have improved (or worsened) since 2019. But we can't just ignore half the continent, and 2019 is still quite recent in the grand scope of things. It is politically expedient to dismiss systemic racism and discrimination as "uniquely American problem[s]," but I am not convinced that this is anything other than a means of avoiding your (Europe's) own issues.

(I'm well aware that England would like to think of the UK and/or British Isles as an island chain in the Atlantic ocean, and not in any way a part of Europe. But NI is a de facto part of Europe whether England likes it or not, at least given the current Brexit deal, and England has its own problems as you describe.)

I would also like to preemptively clarify that I am not in any way accusing *you personally* of trying to avoid the issue. After all, you do say "rightly or wrongly," which can hardly be read as endorsement, and the rest of your comment makes your position clear enough. The "you" in the above comment is "you, Europeans and Brits-who-don't-call-themselves-Europeans, collectively."

[1]: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/minority-gr...
[2]: https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/eur01/005/2011/en/

Confused

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:19 UTC (Wed) by rbranco (subscriber, #129813) [Link]

> I have cited this survey before, and I will do so again. Over 80% of Italians had a negative view of the Romani (or Roma) people in 2019,[1] and several other countries were not far behind that mark. I was also able to find numerous older reports about many different kinds of anti-Romani discrimination practiced throughout Europe

The way this is exploited by both sides for cheap political points is mostly American though, and we don't want that CRT crap here.

Confused

Posted Oct 27, 2025 19:02 UTC (Mon) by excors (subscriber, #95769) [Link] (28 responses)

They wouldn't, but (from the blog post):

> This restriction would apply not only to the security work directly funded by the grant, but to any and all activity of the PSF as a whole.

The US government isn't just choosing not to directly fund "DEI" programs themselves, they're using their control over funding as a way to force companies and universities to eliminate all DEI activity.

Confused

Posted Oct 27, 2025 21:20 UTC (Mon) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link] (27 responses)

Or anything they choose to paint as such, for that matter; it's a thin excuse by which they can steer funding to organizations they consider politically aligned, or push organizations to be more politically aligned. And for every PSF that can afford to turn down 1.5M to not become subject to the whims of the administration, there are other organizations that will grit their teeth and make a show of bending the knee so they get funded.

Same as before

Posted Oct 28, 2025 12:04 UTC (Tue) by edgewood (subscriber, #1123) [Link] (25 responses)

Which is just the same as the last administration, just with different people happy or unhappy about it.

Same as before

Posted Oct 28, 2025 13:55 UTC (Tue) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link] (24 responses)

False. Bothsidesing isn't a clever or witty comeback. Bothsidesing implies both sides are equally guilty of something, rather than the current administration being heavily focused on loyalty-testing and corruption and discrimination and open bribery (among many many other things).

Same as before

Posted Oct 28, 2025 16:14 UTC (Tue) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (23 responses)

To be fair, it can be depressing to choose for the lesser of two evils when there is never more than two choices, no matter the gap between the two evils. This is due to the "winner takes all" voting system which is pervasive across all the USA[*]. Absolutely pointless to have a 3rd or 4th option when votes for them have a near 100% chance to be discarded every single time.

Unfortunately, voting systems and other too abstract topics will never make a good story / TikTok video. So we're screwed. There are actually excellent articles and videos about this. But too few clicks.

Gerrymandering has been all over the news recently because the non-mathematical aspects became too big to ignore. Gerrymandering is also 100% dependent on the "winner takes all" system; it's a necessary condition. Yet most articles about Gerrymandering do not say a single word about the voting system that it completely relies on... We're screwed.

So numbers and other abstract topics put people off. I used to think it was the only reason. Now I started to think there could be more to it. Maybe "winner takes all" is actually a good match for some cultures. Maybe it reflects what people want in general. More openly on one side, but not just on one side.

[*] there are rare exceptions; it's a very big country.

Same as before

Posted Oct 28, 2025 19:30 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (2 responses)

> Absolutely pointless to have a 3rd or 4th option when votes for them have a near 100% chance to be discarded every single time.

There is some point: if a party gains some vote threshold (5%?), they are entitled to some federal funds for their party in the next election. The Reform party met it once, but then squabbled over it and threw it away. See this series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqqaW1LrMTY

Same as before

Posted Oct 28, 2025 20:15 UTC (Tue) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (1 responses)

That's a good funding rule (whatever the voting system is) and it's not nothing.

But I doubt "We won't have any seat any time soon but vote for us so we can survive" is compelling enough to win voters compared to: either choosing the lesser of two evils that do have some chance to get some seat(s), or just staying home and watching TV.

Also, campaign billions are now protected as free speech thanks to "Citizens United vs FEC". How many orders of magnitude smaller are these federal funds? Just curious.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 3:29 UTC (Wed) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> But I doubt "We won't have any seat any time soon but vote for us so we can survive" is compelling enough to win voters compared to: either choosing the lesser of two evils that do have some chance to get some seat(s), or just staying home and watching TV.

Given the Electoral College, votes for the "other" party in a given state (for the President) are essentially "wasted" anyways, so if you're passionate about it and live in, say, Alaska, and would vote for the "D" party, why not toss a vote to a third party instead? Also in more "purple" states, many candidates are registered under multiple parties. For example, one can vote for candidate A as a Democrat or Working Families or candidate B as a Republican or Constitution.

Same as before

Posted Oct 28, 2025 22:04 UTC (Tue) by brunowolff (guest, #71160) [Link] (19 responses)

> Absolutely pointless to have a 3rd or 4th option when votes for them have a near 100% chance to be discarded every single time.

If you treat elections as multi-round games instead of one shot games, you can vote for 3rd and 4th ranked options as a way to signal to the top two options to modify their positions in order to get you vote for them in future rounds. This might end up trading short term pain for long term benefits.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 0:11 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (17 responses)

Pretty much any known alternative to the "winner takes all" system is better, which is both a blessing and a curse.

Any alternative is better because you really can't be worse than discarding votes on the first and single turn.

It's a blessing because you can't go wrong. It's a curse because there's no perfect voting system, so the few people who care start comparing the alternatives and soon enough everyone else has left the room, back to watching TikTok and other echo chamber algorithms. Back to: democracy is screwed.

Or, maybe the mere idea of voting is flawed? https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/645360/against-e...
I didn't read that book, it was a reference from somewhere else. The summary is interesting.

> If you treat elections as multi-round games instead of one shot games

The problem with multiple rounds is: you may choose someone more consensual but you're still electing a single person. That's OK for one president because there's only one slot to fill anyway. but you can do a much more representative job when you need to pick 600 people. It's not theoretical, many countries do a much better job already.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 7:41 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (5 responses)

> Or, maybe the mere idea of voting is flawed? https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/645360/against-e...
I didn't read that book, it was a reference from somewhere else. The summary is interesting.

I read it. The title is very provocative, and people often assume that it's some nonsense about restoring aristocracy. Not so. This book makes a very persuasive argument that some measure random selection ("sortition") is needed to preserve the democracy itself.

I'm not totally sold on it because I don't entirely _want_ powerful interests to be ignored in favor of immediate popular demand.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:17 UTC (Wed) by taladar (subscriber, #68407) [Link]

From the summary

> A group of people were chosen by lot, educated in the subject at hand, and then were able to decide what was best,

This seems to me a recipe to make the fight about who gets to 'educate them on the subject' instead, especially when it comes to controversial topics.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 15:18 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (3 responses)

> I read it. The title is very provocative, and people often assume that it's some nonsense about restoring aristocracy. Not so. This book makes a very persuasive argument that some measure random selection ("sortition") is needed to preserve the democracy itself.

This is why I think gutting the House of Lords is/was a disaster.

Certainly the hereditary seats were pretty much a random selection of society. The appointed seats less so, but still fairly random. And as a place with little hard power, but who took their revising role seriously, they did a good job. Unfortunately, "this ain't going to work" doesn't make waves, so they've been gutted and the quality of general legislation has gone down ...

If we introduce real voting, expect the quality of legislation to go down the pan ...

Cheers,
Wol

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 15:21 UTC (Wed) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link] (2 responses)

I modded this through as it's not impolite or objectionable or anything like that, but we've gone well off topic. National electoral systems and hereditary seats are, perhaps, interesting but far off topic.

This is, as we apparently must say, not directed solely at Wol but I'm placing the comment here in hopes of it being seen before folks hit the reply button. Let's just end the thread here. Thanks.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 16:41 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

Apologies, but I hit the reply button before seeing the "please close the topic" post. I've been off-line for a couple of days and was wading through unread posts.

Cheers,
Wol

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 16:42 UTC (Wed) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link]

Not the end of the world by any means, no apology necessary. Thanks, though.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 7:41 UTC (Wed) by brunowolff (guest, #71160) [Link] (10 responses)

>> If you treat elections as multi-round games instead of one shot games

> The problem with multiple rounds is: you may choose someone more consensual but you're still electing a single person. That's OK for one president because there's only one slot to fill anyway. but you can do a much more representative job when you need to pick 600 people. It's not theoretical, many countries do a much better job already.

That comment was narrowly directed why voting for candidates expected to finish 3rd or lower makes sense under the current winner take all system.

I think having some sort of proportional voting system for assemblies would be an improvement. But I think you also want local representation as well as party representation, so it's going to be messy. (Things would probably work better if there weren't parties, but that isn't happening.)

Even without that change, I'd like to see approval voting combined with eliminating primaries. I think it would be hard to get that change as I have discussed this with smart friends on mine in different groups and they thought that that was crazy. Most of them knew about ranked voting systems, but didn't seem to be aware that there were significantly different versions of them and that all of them have issues where some property you'd normally like for a voting sysem to have are missing.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:17 UTC (Wed) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (2 responses)

> I think having some sort of proportional voting system for assemblies would be an improvement. But I think you also want local representation as well as party representation, so it's going to be messy. (Things would probably work better if there weren't parties, but that isn't happening.)

Actually, I think for countries using FPTP (like the US/UK) there is an easy step: do Multi-Member Representation at city level. So instead of dividing a city like New York into districts that each elect one person, combine them all into one multi-member district with the same number of members for the whole city, but within the city it's proportional. Since city boundaries are already defined elsewhere you solve the gerrymandering problem entirely. Similarly, rural counties can be combined with similar surrounding counties.

There's no requirement that all regions have the same size.

The effect on the politics would be dramatic though. Adding just a few seats for smaller parties can significantly affect the balance of power. The whole current setup in the US is dependent on division and exclusion, and that becomes quite different if minor parties have a chance.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 19:52 UTC (Wed) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link] (1 responses)

To make this work in the USA, you would need to do it at the state level rather than city, because representatives are assigned at the state level. You would also need to do it for all states simultaneously rather than letting each state do it if they wanted to, because having some states with proportional representation and others with (potentially gerrymandered) districts would make a mess of Congress.

Same as before

Posted Oct 30, 2025 13:32 UTC (Thu) by taladar (subscriber, #68407) [Link]

Isn't e.g. the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Inter... already based on the ability to use different systems per state for the federal election systems?

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:17 UTC (Wed) by taladar (subscriber, #68407) [Link]

> But I think you also want local representation as well as party representation

I am not so sure about that. What makes geographic proximity to a candidate a good proxy for quality as a representative? Sure, a small subset of political issues are related to local concerns. However, many of those are very much topics where the local interests are split into several groups too, e.g. the rich factory owner who wants to pollute and the local residents who want a clean coastline.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:18 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (5 responses)

> But I think you also want local representation as well as party representation, so it's going to be messy.

In the likes of the Scottish Parliament elections, you have 2 ballots. One where you have a list of candidates for the local constituency, and a second "party" list of regional candidates. The local constituency vote is first-past-the-post, the regional/party list is D'Hondt.

To be honest I think it's tedious and over-complex, and somewhat the product of the UK's sentimental love for FPTP. I think the Irish system of just having 2 to 5 candidates per constituency (changes according to population distribution) and just having one ballot for them voting by PR-STV is much simpler and better.

I also like the fact Ireland's count is entirely manual pencil and paper, conducted in sports halls (school, GAA, whatever) all across the country, where anyone can go watch and with independent "tally men" watching over the tables and keeping their own scores as the count goes on - which is generally done in half a day.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 13:46 UTC (Wed) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link] (4 responses)

Obligatory "this is not aimed at any specific person" editorial comment. This has strayed well far away from the topic at hand at this point. In the interest of keeping the comment stream related to LWN topics, let's stop here with discussions on currency, electoral systems, etc.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 14:44 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (1 responses)

So let's get back to DEI and the US culture wars?

/me ducks ;)

(Direction otherwise taken FWIW - just couldn't resist this joke).

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 14:50 UTC (Wed) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link]

That's not quite what I meant...

We all, or at least most of us, no doubt have opinions about those things. But they're certainly not going to be solved here, and it's exceedingly unlikely that any minds will be changed one way or the other.

I am happy to have those conversations over beers at any conferences that I attend, though. And, should that person or persons be at our "maniacal supporter" level, I'll even buy the first beer (or beverage of their choice).

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 16:42 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (1 responses)

> let's stop here with discussions on currency, electoral systems, etc.

Just for the record: comparing electoral systems is off-topic and I tried to avoid getting into the weeds. But the current, "winner takes all" voting system does play a major role in the current DEI and culture wars. "Win, win, win!" Discarding votes is an essential element in the culture of not listening to each other, rejecting compromise, living in echo chambers, etc. If that was ever needed, the recent, "extreme Gerrymandering" efforts clearly demonstrate that connection. Who cares what you think? The next election will let us ignore you anyway! Let's tweak the voting system and make it even more broken to make sure.

Beyond voting systems, ignoring or cherry-picking numbers and data in general is also a major element of every DEI debate and culture war. It is required to have an alternate reality. More on one side but not just one side.

Maybe I'm getting senile and nostalgic, but I feel like: people never found data fun, but there used to be some respect for science and some vague desire to share a common reality. Not anymore, at least not on the most popular mob media. The engineers around here should at least take notice.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 16:47 UTC (Wed) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link]

Understood, thanks for the explanation. At any rate, we can wind it up here and move on to more relevant arguments topics.

Same as before

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:18 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Multi-round voting sounds tedious. "Yay, let's have weeks, perhaps months of voting" - no thanks. Just use PR-STV and vote your order of preference in one ballot sheet, in one go.

Confused

Posted Oct 28, 2025 12:33 UTC (Tue) by epeeist_pitlochry (guest, #156764) [Link]

"it's a thin excuse by which they can steer funding to organizations they consider politically aligned, or push organizations to be more politically aligned."

Which means they are selecting on a political, and possibly racial and religious basis, rather than competence or knowledge. In other words, a form of DEI.

PSF probably would've been OK....

Posted Oct 28, 2025 12:04 UTC (Tue) by fest3er (guest, #60379) [Link] (3 responses)

In the withdrawal proposal, PSF stated, «These terms included affirming the statement that we “do not, and will not during the term of this financial assistance award, operate any programs that advance or promote DEI, or discriminatory equity ideology in violation of Federal anti-discrimination laws.”» Note the last phrase, «in violation of Federal anti-discrimination laws» which is missing from the original article.

I think PSF would have been perfectly fine if they (1) sought the best design and implementation contributions they could get without regard to [race], creed, color, gender, age, national/geographic origin, or other category, and (2) did not use the grant money to free up unrestricted funds to use to fund programs that would exclude or include contributors (a) based on any categories that may apply to them, and/or (b) in order to more closely match local, regional, continental or global distributions of said categories.

If PSF executed a de jure or de facto policy that actively worked toward assembling contributors such that their global origins, ages, and genders are:

  • 12.5% European
  • 5.5% from Western Offshoots (US and others)
  • 8.8% Latin American
  • 2.1% Japanese
  • 57.4% Asian
  • 12.9% African,
  • 1.2 males to .98 females in each category, and
  • 26% are under 16 years of age, 9% are over 64 years of age, and the balance comes from other ages in between

PSF would almost certainly be in violation of the terms and conditions of federal regulations and, thus, the grant.

But this is just my opinion which doesn't count for much anyway.

PSF probably would've been OK....

Posted Oct 28, 2025 14:12 UTC (Tue) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (1 responses)

The current US administration has asserted that DEI programs are in violation of federal anti-discrimination laws, but that's false. While recent rulings such as the Ames case have narrowly chipped away at DEI programs, DEI remains legal in the United States.

PSF probably would've been OK....

Posted Oct 28, 2025 19:31 UTC (Tue) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link]

Does their legality imply that the clawback clause is unenforceable? And even if so, who would foot the legal bill?

While I applaud the PSF for choosing not to renege their ideals, they're also clear that refusing the grant was the only practical choice they had.

Operator precedence?

Posted Oct 28, 2025 16:13 UTC (Tue) by nickodell (subscriber, #125165) [Link]

In the withdrawal proposal, PSF stated, «These terms included affirming the statement that we “do not, and will not during the term of this financial assistance award, operate any programs that advance or promote DEI, or discriminatory equity ideology in violation of Federal anti-discrimination laws.”» Note the last phrase, «in violation of Federal anti-discrimination laws» which is missing from the original article.
I think the operator precedence of the section you're quoting is ambiguous.

Is it ((diversity_equity_inclusion or discriminatory_equity_ideology) and violation_of_law)?

Or is it (diversity_equity_inclusion or (discriminatory_equity_ideology and violation_of_law))?

It sounds like you're interpreting it as the first interpretation, but the second seems equally plausible. If a court interpreted it as the second reading, then any DEI policy would be against the terms of the grant.

Are there even any funds?

Posted Oct 28, 2025 12:04 UTC (Tue) by taladar (subscriber, #68407) [Link] (4 responses)

I was under the impression that the US government is in a state of temporary bankruptcy right now that is so bad that they are forcing some of their more essential employees to work without pay. Does that grant money even exist to begin with?

Are there even any funds?

Posted Oct 28, 2025 12:30 UTC (Tue) by willy (subscriber, #9762) [Link] (3 responses)

That's not how a sovereign currency issuer works. The US government can literally print as many dollars as it wants to. It cannot go bankrupt.

The problem is that it does not want to. Congress has not passed a budget and the various tricks it usually uses have expired. So there is a "shutdown".

The US government has never defaulted on its debt. Other sovereigns have. And the US government has recently rescinded grants (and lawsuits are pending over those).

Are there even any funds?

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:17 UTC (Wed) by taladar (subscriber, #68407) [Link]

> The US government can literally print as many dollars as it wants to. It cannot go bankrupt.

Well, not technically but then you would have hyperinflation and the US already has an oversized money supply that will be a huge problem if other countries drop the US dollar as a reserve currency.

Are there even any funds?

Posted Oct 29, 2025 12:19 UTC (Wed) by rbranco (subscriber, #129813) [Link] (1 responses)

> That's not how a sovereign currency issuer works. The US government can literally print as many dollars as it wants to. It cannot go bankrupt.

Yes it can. The value of currency is determined by supply & demand. If you print too much, there's oversupply and you risk less demand for currency and bonds that turn to junk.

And the Federal Reserve is not part of the US government.

Are there even any funds?

Posted Oct 29, 2025 13:43 UTC (Wed) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link]

Obligatory "this is not aimed at any one person" editorial comment, but this has strayed well far away from the topic at hand at this point. In the interest of keeping the comment stream related to LWN topics, let's stop here with discussions on currency, electoral systems, etc.

Completely Embarrassing.

Posted Oct 28, 2025 12:31 UTC (Tue) by targz (subscriber, #166786) [Link]

I am embarrassed that my government is even attempting to force their political agenda into science and technology (anywhere actually). Its absolutely ridiculous. I am glad the PSF declined the grant. Science and Tech does not check to see what color your skin is and it doesn't require you to be any kind of social class. Citizens of Earth are not just white, rich and powerful; no matter how much the Trumpets want it to be.

Oh dear

Posted Oct 28, 2025 13:55 UTC (Tue) by alspnost (guest, #2763) [Link]

Quite incredible that we're here: but this is what happens when America is run by ghouls. Hopefully it'll return to civilisational progress in a few more years.

I can't help wondering

Posted Oct 28, 2025 14:12 UTC (Tue) by IanKelling (subscriber, #89418) [Link]

If some PSF people could rather easily spin up a new LLC or something for this grant in order to work around this issue. I heard that Harvard created a similar separation between the university and various businesses it owns in order to avoid/minimize Trump administration demands and it has been very effective.

It is difficult to see one's privilege so this a good decision

Posted Oct 28, 2025 14:47 UTC (Tue) by twiens (subscriber, #12274) [Link]

It is my observation with over 40 years in the work place that as a white male in Canada it is very difficult to see your own privilege. A few specific situations have allowed the opportunity to see it and one was working overseas in Japan where it was really clear that my opinion was taken more seriously than that of my female colleagues. Another has been working with First Nations folks in Canada and going for lunch in the same restaurant with and without them and seeing different treatment in the same restaurants. Once you start to see it, if you can sit back and observe carefully you will see this same thread in a lot of places including in technical discussions where I see how my own opinion has carried more weight than it should compared to some of my younger, non-white or female colleagues in the past. The solutions to system baked in imbalance are not simple and the assertion that meritocracy will resolve them is incredibly naive and that is why DEI programs matter.

If we love programming and want to build the best tools, we need a space where everyone can contribute based on the merit of their ideas, but that only happens if we make sure everyone gets a chance to participate. For this reason I am pleased with the and fully support the decision to withdraw the application.


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