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To become success story

To become success story

Posted Sep 19, 2025 5:20 UTC (Fri) by wtarreau (subscriber, #51152)
In reply to: To become success story by jschrod
Parent article: Typst: a possible LaTeX replacement

I get your point and am not really complaining against LaTeX, which I still love, I'm describing my annoying experience of upgrades. Sure, other programs like gcc break compatibility way more often (every release) and in more subtle ways (silently produce bad code by abusing UB).

The thing is that when you don't use LaTeX often enough and each time you do it's difficult, then what remains of the experience is frustration. The frustration of not being able to reproduce a previous report that you spent a lot of time arranging, etc.

When I was using it on a daily basis 30 years ago, I *loved* it. Never having to think about what the output would look like and just typing was really awesome and I haven't found anything getting close to that experience. And I'm still pleased to read papers written using it, which are instantly recognizable. I'm also a bit suspicious about tools that try to imitate it, because, as you say, it has accumulated decades of expertise in what it's doing, so users risk losing great stuff.

It's very possible that forward compatibility has improved a lot since these experience, but due to these problems I got used to no longer using it. The rare times I need to write something with different fonts and sizes, I just write HTML and let the browser of the moment render it. It's a bit more painful but relies on a standard that's not going to disappear any time soon.


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To become success story

Posted Sep 19, 2025 8:34 UTC (Fri) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (2 responses)

When I was using it on a daily basis 30 years ago, I *loved* it. Never having to think about what the output would look like and just typing was really awesome and I haven't found anything getting close to that experience. And I'm still pleased to read papers written using it, which are instantly recognizable. I'm also a bit suspicious about tools that try to imitate it, because, as you say, it has accumulated decades of expertise in what it's doing, so users risk losing great stuff.

LaTeX is great if you're largely happy with what it does. If you need to bend it to your will to obtain a specific effect, that can easily become an exercise in frustration – fortunately now there are extension packages which will let you, e.g., control how chapter and section headings look like, which was something that in the 1990s required fairly arcane knowledge of the insides of LaTeX to change in even minor ways. Similarly, LaTeX input is reasonably straightforward to write once you've got the hang of it, but it is an absolute bear to parse if you want to process it with a tool that isn't LaTeX itself. TeX input, if anything, is worse.

The main problem of the TeX and LaTeX ecosystem is that it is, to a large extent, based on ideas which were innovative in the 1980s, but the publishing world has continued turning in the meantime, and TeX's stability guarantee in particular, while commendable in principle, has largely prevented it from evolving along. When TeX was new, PostScript hadn't really been invented yet, PDF wasn't even on the horizon, font technology looked a lot different from what it does today, and Unicode wasn't a thing at all, but now there is no way around these developments. The solutions that Knuth and his colleagues came up with (DVI, Metafont, and so on) didn't catch on outside the TeX community, so TeX has been chasing what the rest of the world was doing in these areas, through non-standard variants such as eTeX, PDFTeX, LuaTeX, etc.

It is true that it is perfectly possible, in 2025, to use LaTeX to typeset a PDF document with OpenType fonts based on UTF-8 encoded input, but this means you have to run a version of TeX that has special code extensions not necessarily found in other versions of TeX, using special LaTeX packages which may come bundled in a “batteries included” distribution such as TeXLive but are not actually part of LaTeX itself. This fragmentation tends to make life with (La)TeX more difficult. Also, nowadays people expect to be able to write a document in a single source format and render it, without source changes, in wildly different output formats such as HTML and PDF, in a way that avails itself of the specific advantages of the format in question, and TeX/LaTeX doesn't really have a straightforward and obvious answer to that requirement like Markdown, Pandoc, or Sphinx (to name but a few examples) do.

I've been a TeX and LaTeX user for 40 years now but I'm looking at Typst with considerable interest.

To become success story

Posted Sep 19, 2025 12:21 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Also, nowadays people expect to be able to write a document in a single source format and render it, without source changes, in wildly different output formats such as HTML and PDF, in a way that avails itself of the specific advantages of the format in question, and TeX/LaTeX doesn't really have a straightforward and obvious answer to that requirement[...]

I solved this problem (with a little bit of pain) for my 600-page set of manuals I mentioned earlier. I wanted PDF output as well as HTML output. There's a pretty nice program called htlatex that does a creditable job of generating HTML, and then I post-processed it to (eg) replace the generated images with the original source images so figures were of higher quality. I also defined a few conditional macros that inserted links to training videos in certain spots... something you can't really do with PDF.

Yes, it was a bit annoying to set up, but once I had my Makefile written, it worked beautifully.

Inclusion of PDF files has been implemented

Posted Sep 27, 2025 9:26 UTC (Sat) by Delio (guest, #179554) [Link]

The article mentions Typst's inability to include PDF files but this feature has been merged recently: https://github.com/typst/typst/pull/6623


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