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How many resources for professional graphics

How many resources for professional graphics

Posted Jun 13, 2025 18:36 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198)
Parent article: Ubuntu 25.10 to drop support for GNOME on Xorg

I don't feel the need to wade into and repeat the arguments about what flavor the pixels are (it's only Unix graphics of it comes from the X11 region, otherwise it's just sparkling Microsoft) but I think it's useful to understand some differences between the last 10-20y and the previous 20y, IMO when X11 was stabilized and became the standard display tech across Unix, replacing proprietary systems from HP, DEC, Sun, IBM and others there was a lot of big companies with commercial interest in selling high powered graphical workstations who funded the effort to build the X11 ecosystem including all the detail work accessibility, UX testing, QA, etc and that made it so beloved of so many people here. I don't see Wayland (which is a better fit for the Linux graphics stack and how GPUs have worked for 20y) as having the same kind of resources behind it as the decades and billions of dollars thatade X11. Wayland has some fine developers some of whom are full-time and some commerce and specific vertical industries which depends on it but it's still much closer to a volunteer project than its nearest analog the Apple Quartz stack on MacOSX Unix, there is no Sun trying to sell SunRay terminals that depend on it, and it kind of missed the timing to be used for Android or ChromeOS. If there was more pressure then it wouldn't take years to agree to protocol extension proposals and conventions between the major desktops, those disagreements would be forcibly resolved in weeks or months at most because no one shipping product has time/money to spend waiting for consensus, the environment which created the ICCCM conventions isn't the environment today.

I'm just an armchair opinion-haver though, maybe someone more knowledgeable can elaborate and tell me how and why I'm wrong ;-)


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How many resources for professional graphics

Posted Jun 15, 2025 14:47 UTC (Sun) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

The other really important thing is that hardware's changed.

When X11 was stabilizing, graphics output hardware consisted of a framebuffer feeding data to a RAMDAC that fed a CRT. If you were lucky, the output hardware had a simple overlay for the pointer, where it would switch the RAMDAC to getting data from a different palette and data source for a small rectangle (often in a different format, too - e.g. 4 bit with palette for the pointer, 8 bit with a different palette for the main framebuffer), with one data value reserved for "display the underlying framebuffer, not the pointer".

In this world, you could do things like colour correction by changing the RAMDAC setup slightly; change how it mapped framebuffer bits to voltages, and you got different pictures on the CRT.

Today's graphics output hardware isn't like that. We have a variety of display technologies, and we transfer the picture over a digital link. The graphics output hardware generates the image it sends over that digital link by compositing different framebuffers together, each with their own colourspace conversion, so that you can have a link that's 10 bpc RGB, being fed from an 8 bpc YUV framebuffer and three 8 bpc ARGB framebuffers each with their own conversions to 10 bpc RGB, and with those conversions happening on-the-fly. Further, the graphics output hardware may even be able to alpha-composite framebuffers together; if it can do this, it can sometimes do it before conversion to the link format, sometimes after, and sometimes even in an intermediate format (some hardware can composite in 12 bpc RGB, converting for output).

On top of that, the conversions have become more complicated; in the days when X11 stabilised, your conversion hardware was (at the most sophisticated end) a palette to RGB lookup, followed by a 1D LUT to turn each of R, G and B into voltages. In the modern world, you have 1D LUTs to convert digital values to digital values, 3D LUTs that convert 3 input values as a trio to three output values (so you can do things like have strong green reduce blue a little bit), and even conversion matrices, where you treat the input values as a vector, and multiply by a matrix to get an output vector. And, just to make things even more exciting, the graphics output hardware can directly read some compressed framebuffer formats; instead of having the framebuffer as a literal 1:1 mapping of pixel to output, you can have framebuffers that include shortcuts for things like "the next N pixels are all this fixed value"; this doesn't map nicely to X11's view that it can directly access pixels from the CPU.

X11, in as far as it handled modern hardware capabilities, did so by treating them as acceleration layers; you had the "main" framebuffer, the output link was configured to match the main framebuffer (possibly via a conversion layer for colour correction), and then any compositing was treated as layers for use by things like the Xv extension. For multiple monitor support, the graphics hardware was configured to have a single "virtual" framebuffer, with the output hardware scanning out its own chunk of the virtual framebuffer.

All of this means that the X11 model of hardware is hopelessly out of date, and to actually make full use of the silicon you're paying for (saving power, reducing output latency, reducing DRAM bandwidth used by iGPUs, having multiple colour-corrected windows, handling mixed HDR and SDR content etc), you need something that doesn't look like X11 any more.

How many resources for professional graphics

Posted Jun 16, 2025 9:55 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (2 responses)

> here is no Sun trying to sell SunRay terminals that depend on [X11]

Pretty sure SunRay actually used its own protocol - not X11.

SunRay long predated standardisation on X11 across Unix workstations. Talking more the Sun SparcStation days when X11 became standard.

How many resources for professional graphics

Posted Jun 16, 2025 13:05 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Sigh...

> SunRay long predated standardisation on X11 across Unix workstations.

I of course meant: "standardisation of X11 across Unix workstations long predated SunRay.".

How many resources for professional graphics

Posted Jun 17, 2025 1:36 UTC (Tue) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

Sure the wire protocol for a SunRay wasn't X11, because it wasn't suitable for remote display even then, but there wouldn't have been applications to run on a SunRay without a local X server that could output to the SunRay protocol, much like how you could run a Wayland compositor which outputs to RDP and runs Xwayland for local apps. The apps didn't natively speak SunRay, so Sun invested in the X11 ecosystem with GNOME and StarOffice to make their product useful. While GNOME and KDE and COSMIC and LibreOffice and Firefox all exist today and are maintained by amazing volunteers, I don't see any vendor with the same kind of urgency putting effort into Wayland and accessibility to dot all the 'i's and cross all the 't's


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