I HATE PYTHON [LWN.net]

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 21, 2025 16:33 UTC (Wed) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
In reply to: I HATE PYTHON by hDF
Parent article: Recent disruptive changes from Setuptools

Seconded. I hate that you can't use pip3 to easily install system-wide packages if your Python installation comes from an OS package and that it wants you to set up a venv. Drives me completely nuts.

I'm more of a Perl person than a Python person, and Perl happily lets you install both OS packages and packages from CPAN and manages to keep them in separate directories. Why can't Python do this?

(I'm guessing it can if you know the right magic, but the warning from pip3 not to do it is pretty stern.)

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I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 21, 2025 19:05 UTC (Wed) by intelfx (subscriber, #130118) [Link] (25 responses)

> I'm more of a Perl person than a Python person, and Perl happily lets you install both OS packages and packages from CPAN and manages to keep them in separate directories. Why can't Python do this?

Because Python's support for "keep[ing] them in separate directories" is called a venv.

> but the warning from pip3 not to do it is pretty stern

Yes, and rightly so.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 21, 2025 20:01 UTC (Wed) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (24 responses)

Because Python's support for "keep[ing] them in separate directories" is called a venv.

Yeah, but that's not a great solution for installing system-wide packages from source. Surely it would not have been the end of the world for Python to include a standard set of paths (different from the main system paths) for installing packages from source? A sort of default built-in venv?

AFAIK (correct me if I'm wrong) Python is the only major language that doesn't have this sort of thing.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 21, 2025 23:36 UTC (Wed) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (23 responses)

That's called pip install --user, if you're installing for a single user.

If you're installing for all users on the system, then you are in one of three positions:

* You are the distro. Then this behavior was your idea in the first place, because upstream Python does not do this (i.e. tell pip to fail with an error saying not to fiddle with package-managed files). If you don't like that behavior, don't put it in your distro's version of Python.
* You are the sysadmin. Then you can use the site module's configuration hooks to set up and customize how modules are imported and where they may be installed, and then use pip install --prefix or pip install --target to manually install packages into it. Your distro may have already configured such a thing for you (check with python -m site). See https://docs.python.org/3/library/site.html
* You are building a container image or the like. Then you are either using somebody else's container-targeted distro, in which case you've effectively appointed yourself sysadmin of the container (see previous bullet), or else you're building it from scratch with just the software you actually use (see first bullet). If you don't want to be a sysadmin, then use a venv instead of a full container - venvs are much cheaper and simpler than containers!

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 22, 2025 2:13 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (21 responses)

I'm in option 2 - sysadmin.

Any normal C or C++ program built with ./configure installs itself in /usr/local/ by default and doesn't interfere with system packages.

Any normal Perl package built with a Makefile.PL will do the same by default and not interfere with system packages.

Why can't Python do that by default? I shouldn't need to know much about Python just to use software written in it.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 22, 2025 5:23 UTC (Thu) by geofft (subscriber, #59789) [Link] (20 responses)

> Any normal C or C++ program built with ./configure installs itself in /usr/local/ by default and doesn't interfere with system packages.

_Usually_ doesn't interfere! It's true that it doesn't physically overwrite files, but what if it installs a binary like bash or perl or python or something and then breaks existing system packages when PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin?

What if it installs newer and incompatible / buggy / differently-configured shared libraries at the same SONAME? /usr/local/lib is on the default shared library search path.

What if your Perl package installs a newer and incompatible / buggy / differently-configured Perl library and shows up first on @INC and breaks some OS-provided Perl command? At least on my system, /usr/bin/perl -e 'print "@INC\n"' has /usr/local before /usr.

Python does the same thing. It will look for Python code in /usr/local. It will to this day still happily install there with (e.g.) "sudo pip install --break-system-packages," which exists simply to opt into this risk if you're comfortable with this risk. I don't have a good explanation for _why_ this problem seemed to affect Python more than it affected C users and Perl users. The best guess I have is that there are far more Python users installing third-party packages, and they are far less likely to be sysadmins, than C or Perl users installing third-party packages, so it was much more common to hit these unlikely-but-certainly-possible scenarios in Python.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 22, 2025 12:43 UTC (Thu) by kpfleming (subscriber, #23250) [Link]

A large factor in this dilemma is many prominent distributions ship, and rely on, tooling written in Python (including package managers). Installing a different version of a package that was already installed by the distribution can break those tools, and results are not hilarious.

I believe some distributions have considered having a totally separate Python installation to be used by the distribution's tools, which brings its own complications (such as users using their package manager to determine that 'requests' is installed, but complaining that 'import requests' fails in their own programs).

It is an unfortunate situation, but had led to some people (including me) never using the distro-provided Python for anything other than temporary or one-off scripts.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 22, 2025 13:07 UTC (Thu) by Karellen (subscriber, #67644) [Link] (15 responses)

but what if it installs a binary like bash or perl or python or something and then breaks existing system packages

Then that's a terrible, broken package that no-one should be installing on any system under any circumstances. Also, you should probably add its authors/maintainers to a list of people to avoid installing any software from in the future.

I guess I don't understand enough about python packaging to have any clue why a problem that wild would even be on your radar. It feels like an abyss I'm frankly kind of terrified to look into, for fear of dropping SAN points.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 22, 2025 14:19 UTC (Thu) by geofft (subscriber, #59789) [Link] (14 responses)

You think bash is a terrible, broken package? :)

I guess part of the problem here is that Python package managers install packages' dependencies too. So, yes, I agree that if `wget ftp.gnu.org/zardoz.tgz && tar xf zardoz.tgz && cd zardoz && ./configure && sudo make install` causes a /usr/local/bin/bash to exist, that is terrible, broken, and fully unacceptable. But `sudo pip install zardoz` may well pull in a newer version of a dependency (probably not bash, of course, but there are plenty of CLI tools written in Python, and occasional needs for CLI dependencies not written in Python).

Another way of looking at this is, _if_ there is a need for a newer version of some common dependency, something like automake will make you figure that out on your own, at which point you as a sysadmin will ponder what's going on before you install a newer version of bash to /usr/local/bin. The Python ecosystem prefers not to make you figure that out on your own. There are good arguments for both philosophies, but this is a fundamental part of why there are orders of magnitude more people who install Python packages than have ever typed the letters "./configure".

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 22, 2025 16:22 UTC (Thu) by Karellen (subscriber, #67644) [Link] (13 responses)

Python package managers install packages' dependencies too.

Even non-Python dependencies, which are generally distributed outside of Python package repos?!?

Oh. My. God.

That does clear up some confusion I was having around binary packages for Python though. Like, why do you need binaries for a scripting language at all?

Anyway, I've been doing some stuff in Python recently, just using the system python. I've been thinking about looking into non-system-python stuff, and even packaging some of my code, but been put off by the multitude of python packaging systems, and an apparent lack of consensus around which to use. I think I'll just give them all a miss now, and try looking at another language altogether. Or maybe take up goat farming instead.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 22, 2025 16:53 UTC (Thu) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (5 responses)

> Even non-Python dependencies, which are generally distributed outside of Python package repos?!?

Eh... sort of but not really. The de facto standard tool for installing truly non-Python dependencies is conda, but conda is an entirely different ball of wax, with its own separate package repositories etc., and most distros either do not package it at all, or at least do not install it by default. Conda also sets up a totally isolated Python installation, so it actually does play reasonably well with the system Python (in the sense that it usually does not touch the system Python at all).

The problem with pip (not conda) is that, in practice, there are a ton of libraries written in Python, including the Python *bindings* for many non-Python libraries. Installing any Python package that depends on those libraries will cause them to be installed into /usr/local if no venv or --user is active, and then plenty of system packages may break.

> Anyway, I've been doing some stuff in Python recently, just using the system python. I've been thinking about looking into non-system-python stuff, and even packaging some of my code, but been put off by the multitude of python packaging systems, and an apparent lack of consensus around which to use. I think I'll just give them all a miss now, and try looking at another language altogether. Or maybe take up goat farming instead.

Gentle recommendation: Learn uv, venv, and *maybe* pip, and ignore literally everything else in this space. You don't really need to know venv and pip for that matter, because uv handles both of those use cases, but it's good to understand them in broad conceptual terms since they are the closest things that Python has to standard package tooling.

Rationale: uv handles 90%+ of use cases exceptionally well, has very good performance compared to most of the other tooling, is actively supported and maintained, favors correctness over footguns (especially in terms of how it resolves dependencies), and does not massively deviate from the de facto best practices that most other tooling follows (so if uv suddenly gets replaced by yet another New Shiny, you'll probably be able to migrate from it without massive effort on your part).

I have previously heard good things about Poetry and a couple of other solutions, and I probably would have recommended them to you in the past, but nowadays, the common wisdom is that uv's high performance blows most of the competition out of the water, to the point where it doesn't make much sense to touch any non-uv tool unless you really need a feature that uv lacks (or your project is already using one of the alternatives, of course). These days, there are not a whole lot of things missing from uv (at least as far as I know), so that's an increasingly niche reason to use something else.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 23, 2025 1:56 UTC (Fri) by aragilar (subscriber, #122569) [Link] (4 responses)

90% is optimistic: uv is very much embedded in the webdev part of the ecosystem (it's the same line as pipenv and poetry) so solves their needs well (modulo assumptions uv makes which are its primary source of speedups but also cause issues), but outside webdev it makes things harder to package for linux distros (because now you have two languages to manage), it doesn't play well with the numerical ecosystem because of its assumptions (and so conda is used), and it tries to hide the real need for design when managing an install (e.g. look at how it installs python, and all the minor things that break due to trying to make an almost-static install). If you are in its target group, it's a significant improvement over pipenv/poetry (because they do make the same assumptions, and helped pave the path to uv), but otherwise to me it seems like another wedge splitting apart the Python ecosystem.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 23, 2025 2:14 UTC (Fri) by geofft (subscriber, #59789) [Link] (3 responses)

> it doesn't play well with the numerical ecosystem because of its assumptions (and so conda is used)

I've spent the last week at PyCon in a room with the Conda folks and other people working with numerical/scientific computing in Python, trying to both solve these problems for the PyPI-based ecosystem (pip, now also uv and poetry and others) and trying to do it in a way where we're compatible with the Conda ecosystem / where they can adopt the same designs. Honestly the PyPI ecosystem has been _pretty_ good over the last few years for this task, certainly far better than a decade ago when `pip install numpy` would always try to build from source. NVIDIA has resumed offering first-class support for the PyPI ecosystem in the last few years after very loudly quitting it in 2019 (https://medium.com/rapids-ai/rapids-0-7-release-drops-pip...). There's still a lot left to do, but we should be at the point (and are, in my experience) where most people, certainly most individuals, will have just as good a time with pip/uv/etc., so I am genuinely curious what sorts of things you personally find don't work.

> and it tries to hide the real need for design when managing an install (e.g. look at how it installs python, and all the minor things that break due to trying to make an almost-static install).

I'm one of the maintainers of those Python builds and I am absolutely open to bug reports, either here or on our bugtracker. Going after all these minor things is basically my top priority at the moment. Please let me know, I love having more test cases. :-)

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 23, 2025 10:46 UTC (Fri) by aragilar (subscriber, #122569) [Link] (2 responses)

I want to draw a distinction between the underlying standard/tools, which are mostly fine apart from some key spots I know are mostly being worked on (and which I am happy to use), and the higher level wrappers (of which poetry and uv are the poster children, and which I have an issue being described as working for 90%).

I'd classify things on a spectrum from papercuts to blockers. Things listed on https://gregoryszorc.com/docs/python-build-standalone/mai... are close to papercuts, in that they can be avoided by using a different build (or even building from source, plus they're actually documented), but when tools like uv default to using them implicitly, they start moving towards blockers (as people tend to go with the defaults, and so it becomes a matter of debugging layers of issues). Once certain IDEs start getting involved, now you're having to debug someone poorly configured machine and wasting hours or days fixing.

Then there are the parts of the ecosystem where pre-built binaries cannot be used (e.g. MPI), you end up to start adding flags like `--no-binary` and rebuilding half the ecosystem anyway because you need to link to a single BLAS. uv is really not designed for this (neither is poetry, they assume too much about wheels), and while you can (and I have) created your own private index to control what the installers see, using pip is far easier (and less likely to break).

Then there are the fun bits like the PyPI packages of Jupyter plugins just straight up not working (though the conda version works), due to wheels not being able to install to specific paths (because they need to integrate with the system they are installed on).

This all flows from the assumption that pre-built PyPI-associated binaries (with all their limitations) are a solution (rather than a workaround) to users needing to set up their machine properly. It's worth comparing this to R, where the installer on Windows and MacOS sets up a proper dev environment (with compilers), and so these kind of problems do not happen.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 24, 2025 22:47 UTC (Sat) by geofft (subscriber, #59789) [Link] (1 responses)

Thank you, this is very helpful and I appreciate you taking the time to write this up! A few of those quirks in that document are gone now (e.g., the musl build is now a dynamic binary, not a static one, so extensions work fine); I'll update it.

> Once certain IDEs start getting involved, now you're having to debug someone poorly configured machine and wasting hours or days fixing.

Just to clarify, do you mean that people use their IDEs to set up uv and thus python-build-standalone, and that makes things harder to debug because it's harder to figure out what their setup is? Or is there something specific to usage inside some IDE versus at the CLI?

> Then there are the parts of the ecosystem where pre-built binaries cannot be used (e.g. MPI), you end up to start adding flags like `--no-binary` and rebuilding half the ecosystem anyway because you need to link to a single BLAS.

This is definitely one of the things we spent time talking about last weekend (and it's also called out on https://pypackaging-native.github.io/key-issues/abi/ , an excellent website written by folks who work on the scientific Python ecosystem and would like the non-conda ecosystem to work well.) It's certainly a deficiency right now, but it's also a high priority for the scientific Python community as a whole. While I'm sure people have concrete examples, if you have a specific favorite prebuilt binary wheel or package name that doesn't work well or a combination of libraries that need to share a single BLAS, again, I love having more test cases. :)

> [...] uv is really not designed for this [...] using pip is far easier (and less likely to break).

uv and pip both install the same packages from the same places, and when you build from source with --no-binary you can link your exact system libraries when using either uv or pip, so I'm curious about this - is this because you can do venv --system-site-packages (or use pip without a venv in some fashion) and get some compiled Python packages from the OS, and uv doesn't support that? Or something else?

> Then there are the fun bits like the PyPI packages of Jupyter plugins just straight up not working (though the conda version works), due to wheels not being able to install to specific paths (because they need to integrate with the system they are installed on).

This one is new to me - do you have a specific plugin / example command that doesn't work? (I know there are tons of people using Jupyter with extensions in production using pip + venv, so I'm assuming it's not "any extension.")

> This all flows from the assumption that pre-built PyPI-associated binaries (with all their limitations) are a solution (rather than a workaround) to users needing to set up their machine properly. It's worth comparing this to R, where the installer on Windows and MacOS sets up a proper dev environment (with compilers), and so these kind of problems do not happen.

Yes, conditional on actually setting up a proper dev environment with compilers and library dependencies, which has its own host of problems. :) This was, after all, the status quo of pip until about a decade ago, and the fact that it was a very bad experience is both why conda came into existence and why pip started doing wheels. (Unless you mean that Python or uv or some other installer should install _its own_ compiler toolchain, independent of what is on the host, and build stuff from source, including C libraries like BLAS? That's an intriguing idea....) Conda supports R as well as Python, and my impression is that its R support is popular for largely the same reasons, in that building all your R packages from source is a difficult experience.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 28, 2025 9:55 UTC (Wed) by aragilar (subscriber, #122569) [Link]

> Just to clarify, do you mean that people use their IDEs to set up uv and thus python-build-standalone, and that makes things harder to debug because it's harder to figure out what their setup is? Or is there something specific to usage inside some IDE versus at the CLI?

Sorry, I meant that IDEs providing Python installs as well, and now you've got some unreproducible conda-uv-IDE frakenstate where python points somewhere, pip somewhere else and who knows what the `sys.path` will be. Too many tools want to be in charge (for legitimate reasons) and only pip is really set up to be a bit player where it plays nicely with others (though naturally it too can mess things up, as noted by PEP 668). Hence why I push people to understand what their tools are doing, and not mix them arbitrarily.

> This is definitely one of the things we spent time talking about last weekend (and it's also called out on https://pypackaging-native.github.io/key-issues/abi/ , an excellent website written by folks who work on the scientific Python ecosystem and would like the non-conda ecosystem to work well.)

Yeah, I've provided PRs to it previously :) To me the solution here was the "local" or "custom" wheel tag, which I suggested a while back, but didn't go anywhere.

> uv and pip both install the same packages from the same places

It's not the source that's the problem, it's that uv wanted a venv (at least when I tried it) whereas it should have used (in that particular case) the (purpose-built) conda environment.

The jupyter plugin (I don't recall it's name, I'd need to dig into my notes) in this case was to do VNC on the web, and my colleague (who is not a fan on conda) said he needed to use both conda and pip to get it working. When I had time I found out there was a separate binary that was being shelled out to (I think) to set up a websocket or something, but it would only be set up right with the conda install, because it needed some post-install stuff (I'm not sure why it couldn't have been configured correctly).

> Conda supports R as well as Python

My impression (based on the astronomers and biologists I know) is R from conda is used when people want to do R<->Python connections using rpy2 or similar, and most actual R users just use CRAN. This may not be accurate across the ecosystem though (I'm very much embedded in the university ecosystem).

> Yes, conditional on actually setting up a proper dev environment with compilers and library dependencies, which has its own host of problems.

While I don't think this is trivial, I do think we (the Python community) can do a lot better (and if we assume pre-built wheels can be used, then issues like the discussion around the future of setuptools get brushed aside). R on Windows (and possibly MacOS) installs it's own copy of GCC plus a bunch of other "standard" tools, and I've not heard complaints there (I have previously suggested Python on Windows should make it easy to install MSVC, but I got pushback against that). Conda definitely made things better on Windows, but at least when I tried using it to install packages without wheels, it apparently hadn't added the configuration that the conda gcc should work with the conda python, which seemed like a missed opportunity to me.

It also encourages groups to not use PyPI to upload their packages, as the assumption is that you should produce wheels (NVIDIA was one example, but I know of others that I'm not going to name otherwise someone will squat on their packages). I think having a index where all packages get registered, and a separate (downstream?) index which is a self-contained wheel archive would go a long way to solve this, and then you tell people that the high level tools only work with the wheel archive would be a better experience as then PyPI isn't forced to become a worse conda.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 22, 2025 16:59 UTC (Thu) by geofft (subscriber, #59789) [Link] (5 responses)

> Like, why do you need binaries for a scripting language at all?

Two reasons. One, it's a general-purpose programming language; it happens to be good at scripting, but it also happens to be good at other things. For instance, it's very widely used for scientific computing (even before the current AI furor), and an extremely common thing to do with it is to install wrappers around BLAS/LAPACK and use them. (Most of these Python programmers don't even know that the thing they're using is BLAS/LAPACK at its core.)

Two, the thing that a scripting language does, very often, is to call binaries! Graphviz is a good example - the common Python bindings call 'dot' as a subprocess. Yes, you can install it on your own (and the version you get from pip wants you to do exactly that), but there are good reasons to want a version that matches what was tested by the wrapper, etc.

(Also also, if you insist on getting these things from the OS, that means you need sudo to install them. Weirdly enough, the Python ecosystem is probably the best fully unprivileged package manager out there for binaries on Linux. I'm not saying it's good, we have a lot of work to do, but the other options aren't better.)

> I've been thinking about looking into non-system-python stuff, and even packaging some of my code, but been put off by the multitude of python packaging systems, and an apparent lack of consensus around which to use. I think I'll just give them all a miss now, and try looking at another language altogether. Or maybe take up goat farming instead.

Don't let me stop you from taking up goat farming, but if you are willing to take a recommendation for what to use, give uv (https://docs.astral.sh/uv/) a shot. (I recommend the provided installer, but if your OS has a relatively recent version, that's fine too.) The approach of uv is to abstract all the virtual environment stuff from you (and, really, to treat it as an implementation detail).

In fact you can write a single-file Python script with some metadata about its dependencies and use "uv run myscript.py", and behind the scenes it will create a temporary virtual environment with those dependencies if it doesn't have one and run your script, completely independent of anything going on with the OS.

One other thing uv does is it also is able to install its own version of Python, generally noticeably newer than what your OS will have, further increasing how independent it is of the OS. I am one of the maintainers of those Python builds, so if you don't like something about how they build, feel free to yell at me. You will probably be justified in doing so; there are certainly several open issues. :) But it works pretty well, and it avoids the entire class of problems of conflicting with the OS.

uv is relatively new (a little over a year, and half these features for less than that). It's rapidly gaining consensus, and I think there's a strong consensus that _something like_ uv is the right approach, whether or not this particular software project is the way forward. But that's why you're not seeing a consensus quite yet. There's been a lot of work in the past few years to improve Python packaging. It is starting to pay off well, but only just starting. The single-file stuff, in particular, is extremely under-advertised, and I think it's likely the way most sysadmin types (among whom I count myself) would like to be doing things.

Depending on what you're doing, I'm not sure things will be better in another language. If you are writing interesting enough Python that you've moved beyond what the standard library offers, and especially if you're doing things where you'd want compiled libraries like BLAS/LAPACK, dependency problems have to be solved somehow. (I'm curious, incidentally, what the sort of dependencies you're installing are.) Or put another way - there's a reason there's enough stuff on your OS that's written in Python that doing "sudo pip install" puts it at risk. Despite all the problems you see, it does actually solve several more problems very well.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 24, 2025 0:14 UTC (Sat) by himi (subscriber, #340) [Link] (4 responses)

I've run into issues with uv's managed python installs, specifically with the netaddr package - which is an unmaintained beast of a thing, admittedly, but also a common enough requirement (particularly in the OpenStack context, where I work) that I didn't have much choice. In the end I just went with the system python and the distro's python3-netaddr package, because I couldn't find a way to get the managed python install to successfully build netaddr from source (netaddr's fault, not uv's), or provide some way to inject my own build into the environment.

Unfortunately, I don't have notes about what exactly I did, and it was on my previous machine so it's rather hard to go back and re-run things to give a proper bug report, or see if things have changed in the ~6 months since then (a distinct possibility given how fast uv has been evolving) . . .

I'd like to say that fixing the issue of unmaintained or badly maintained packages isn't something that the Python packaging community should be responsible for . . . and it really isn't . . . but there are degrees of failure, some more graceful than others, and it felt like I was hitting a brick wall rather than something more accommodating. Obviously a managed python install is a very curated and controlled environment and there's a limit to the degree of flexibility that you can provide, but that can make them unusable sometimes, particularly when it comes to oddball cases like netaddr.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 24, 2025 1:05 UTC (Sat) by himi (subscriber, #340) [Link]

Hah, I seem to have picked exactly the wrong time to try stuff with netaddr, because it's apparently a lot more live and maintained than it was when I hit these issues . . . That doesn't change the broader point, of course, but failing to note the changes would be rude to the netaddr devs . . .

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 24, 2025 1:10 UTC (Sat) by geofft (subscriber, #59789) [Link] (1 responses)

Er, are you sure you're thinking about netaddr? That's a super straightforward pure Python package and so building it should be trivial, but also it has platform-independent wheels so you don't even need to do that.

For completeness, I just checked `uv run --with netaddr python`, and then pinned to various recent and not-so-recent versions, including the versions packaged in Debian stable/oldstable which are well older than uv itself. I also tried with `--no-binary` to force a local build. All seemed to work fine.

(Looking around Debian for similar-sound arch-dependent packages... did you mean netifaces? That one has compiled code and a pretty dusty build system, but it does seem to work fine with uv, too. I did get a failure the first time I tried because I didn't have a C compiler on my PATH, and I got a failure the second time because netifaces caches its configure-esque checks and uv leaves that around, but it works if you blow that away and retry.)

Regarding old versions, I actually think that's a reasonable expectation, provided that the actual code is -compatible with your current Python version. Sometimes you might need to do things like pin an older setuptools in the build environment (to get back to the subject of the article), and maybe that process needs better docs and error messages, but it's the sort of thing that should be doable.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 24, 2025 1:54 UTC (Sat) by himi (subscriber, #340) [Link]

Yes, insufficient caffeine on a lazy Saturday morning caused me to confuse netaddr for the real culprit, netifaces. If it's working now that may well be due to changes since I ran into this issue - uv development is almost as fast as its runtime, it can be hard to keep up. It may also have been using a more modern Python version than netifaces wanted? I honestly can't recall the details, and I'd have to do a lot of work to rebuild enough context to try and replicate the issues.

One of the things that would have been useful, I think, would be a way to use the system python's packages to resolve certain dependencies - possibly by importing them into the managed python install, or into the venvs that uv builds. Obviously assuming you're working with sufficiently compatible versions (which may well be hard to figure out) . . . It's not going to be something you want to use regularly, and it'd need to be explicitly chosen per-package, but it might be useful if the problem packages are a ways down the dependency tree and unresolvable otherwise.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 24, 2025 1:15 UTC (Sat) by himi (subscriber, #340) [Link]

ugh . . . I am, apparently, an idiot when I haven't had enough coffee - the package I was having issues with was netifaces, not netaddr. Definitely a case where editing comments would be useful, if only to minimise my embarrassment . . .

More about Python wheels ("binary packages")

Posted May 29, 2025 19:00 UTC (Thu) by zahlman (guest, #175387) [Link]

> That does clear up some confusion I was having around binary packages for Python though. Like, why do you need binaries for a scripting language at all?

Python source distributions and binary distributions are both "binaries" in the sense that they're two different flavours of zip archives; but I assume you're talking about wheels (binary distributions).

Generally speaking, they may "install non-Python dependencies", but they don't do this by putting anything in system folders (you're meant to always be able to install anything without sudo). Rather, the archive will contain compiled shared libraries which are then put within the standard install paths for the Python code; and then the Python code can find them with relative paths if necessary.

This happens because Python *isn't* simply "a scripting language" (to the extent that the term means anything any more); in particular, it's often used to interface to code in C (and other languages) for performance reasons, and also simply because the libraries exist and it's useful to access them from Python.

If your system Python includes Numpy, it might be very stripped down - though it still makes use of "local" binaries. For example, my installation includes `/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/numpy/core/_multiarray_umath.cpython-312-x86_64-linux-gnu.so` weighing about 5.5MB. If I separately install a wheel in a new virtual environment, that environment will get its own copy of that which is 10MB, as well as a 25MB .so for OpenBLAS (the system Python can be reworked to use a shared BLAS build).

The libraries generally are compiled with broad compatibility in mind (see https://peps.python.org/pep-0600/, https://github.com/pypa/manylinux and https://packaging.python.org/en/latest/specifications/pla... if you want gory technical details), and of course C is still the dominant language for this. But in principle you can use anything as long as you can figure out explicit bindings from Python (for example, with tools like Cython or SWIG for C) or use dlopen (which is wrapped in the Python standard library by "ctypes").

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 22, 2025 13:39 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (2 responses)

Any software that broke the system in the ways you describe, and was not quickly fixed, would find itself no longer being used.

The problems you mentioned almost never occur in practice.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 22, 2025 14:23 UTC (Thu) by geofft (subscriber, #59789) [Link] (1 responses)

> Any software that broke the system in the ways you describe, and was not quickly fixed, would find itself no longer being used.

Correct. That is why it was in fact fixed in the way I describe. :-)

> The problems you mentioned almost never occur in practice.

They do occur in practice. I'm the primary author and instigator of the Python standards doc that made "--break-system-packages" happen. You are more than welcome to yell at me about it - many people have - but we did this for a reason, with the involvement of both people working on Python-ecosystem packaging tools and people repackaging Python for Linux distros, both of whom saw systems broken in the ways I described and wanted to see it fixed.

The need for user-level protection of site-packages

Posted May 29, 2025 19:23 UTC (Thu) by zahlman (guest, #175387) [Link]

> They do occur in practice.

For what it's worth: I've wanted to blog about the topic for quite some time, but I realize that while I "know" these problems occur in practice, I can only wave my arms around hypotheticals and not point at concrete known examples.

It's not exactly *intuitive* that a Python package installed with pip, for the system Python, with `--user` (i.e. without requiring sudo) could cause problems. I understand that it certainly can (since system tools written in Python and *run as* a user will see those packages on `sys.path`). But to my understanding (of course I don't use pip this way myself ;) ), user `site-packages` folders aren't supposed to show up on `sys.path` when Python runs as root. So it's unclear how much damage can really be done; the worst I was able to come up with myself involved user-level malware attempting to socially engineer its way into a privilege escalation.

I'd be happy for any links to existing write-ups of, for example, the specific ways in which some poor unfortunate user broke Apt etc.

--user installs can also cause problems

Posted May 22, 2025 13:36 UTC (Thu) by zahlman (guest, #175387) [Link]

You generally have the right of it, but please note that the same "externally-managed-environment" protection system applies to the `pip install --user` target location as well - see e.g. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/75608323 . Quoting from the PEP:

> The python3 executable available to the users of the distro and the python3 executable available as a dependency for other software in the distro are typically the same binary. This means that if an end user installs a Python package using a tool like pip outside the context of a virtual environment, that package is visible to Python-language software shipped by the distro. If the newly-installed package (or one of its dependencies) is a newer, backwards-incompatible version of a package that was installed through the distro, it may break software shipped by the distro.

> This may pose a critical problem for the integrity of distros, which often have package-management tools that are themselves written in Python. For example, it’s possible to unintentionally break Fedora’s dnf command with a pip install command, making it hard to recover.

> This applies both to system-wide installs (sudo pip install) as well as user home directory installs (pip install --user), since packages in either location show up on the sys.path of /usr/bin/python3.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 21, 2025 20:02 UTC (Wed) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (1 responses)

> (I'm guessing it can if you know the right magic, but the warning from pip3 not to do it is pretty stern.)

It's not magic. It's one flag.

sudo pip install --break-system-packages [...]

The problem is, now your system package manager doesn't know that you went behind its back and installed random things into /usr with a third-party tool. At best, this causes some confusion about which files are managed by the system and which are "managed" by you manually running pip. At worst, it actually does cause some system packages to break, because they were tested against version X of libfoo and you installed version Y. Pip is entirely right to tell you not to do it - it can and will break your system in unpredictable ways, hence why it is called --**break**-system-packages and not e.g. --global-install or some innocuous-sounding thing.

Pip used to work in the exact manner you describe (silently overwriting system-wide packages if invoked with appropriate privileges). It was changed because too many users were accidentally breaking their systems (as discussed at the time in https://peps.python.org/pep-0668/#motivation). So now, it will only break your system if you ask it to do so, which IMHO is a win.

Also, I know that you do have an OS package manager to break, because you would not be getting that error message if you didn't. Pip looks for a file named EXTERNALLY-MANAGED in the package directory, and that file is not distributed with upstream Python, so it can only exist if your distro put it there to indicate that pip should not touch it. In other words: Your problem is between you and your distro, and pip is just the messenger.

Here are some alternatives that are less terrible:

* pip install --user [...], which installs into a subdirectory of $HOME.
* Make a venv. A venv is not heavy or difficult to work with, although Debian users need to install python3-venv. It's literally just a directory with a copy of (or symlink to) the Python binary, plus some scripting gunk to tell Python and pip to use that directory as the installation root (instead of some directory or combination of directories under /usr/lib).
* Use your OS package manager to install the desired OS packages instead. Pip doesn't support doing this automatically, presumably because it does not want to build out integrations with APT and RPM and Pacman and... etc., as well as converting the PyPI name of a package into the name used by the OS repository. Don't ask me how Perl figured that one out, I'm not a Perl person.
* Configure Python so that it has a separate package directory under /usr/local where you can do whatever you want, without breaking the OS package manager, and then pip will not complain about system-wide installations. See https://docs.python.org/3/library/site.html and https://packaging.python.org/en/latest/specifications/ext... for how this works internally.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 22, 2025 0:43 UTC (Thu) by nliadm (subscriber, #94000) [Link]

There's also the "INSTALLER" metadata file, which can (should) be used to record what installed a given python package. I think Fedora-likes and Debian-likes also install python packages from their repositories into one path (/usr/lib) and configure pip to install into another (/var/lib) and put both in the Python search path. You can still break utilities by installing system-wide, but it's much easier to get the distro-provided tools working again by just nuking the system-wide pip install.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 22, 2025 9:13 UTC (Thu) by ceplm (subscriber, #41334) [Link]

It can and it does … on some other distributions. Complain with your python/setuptools packager.

(There's no need for all-caps vitriol.)

Posted May 22, 2025 13:22 UTC (Thu) by zahlman (guest, #175387) [Link] (2 responses)

> Perl happily lets you install both OS packages and packages from CPAN and manages to keep them in separate directories. Why can't Python do this?

Python doesn't do any of the installation. The entire packaging system, and package ecosystem, is kept at arm's length from core language development.

Installers like pip can and do install packages from PyPI separately from Python packages provided by a Linux distro. Not only that, but it has separate system-level and user-level installations. The system package manager will use (typically) /usr/lib/pythonX.Y/dist-packages . When installing for the system Python, pip will use /usr/lib/pythonX.Y/site-packages when run with sudo, and ~/.local/lib/pythonX.Y/site-packages otherwise.

The reason your distro now insists on using virtual environments is because *this folder arrangement is still problematic*. What happens is that a user-installed module shadows a system-provided one that a system script is trying to use. The ~/.local packages are only visible when running that system script as the user, but *this still causes enough problems* that distros decided "just don't give sudo rights to pip" isn't enough protection.

I genuinely don't understand why "easily installing *system-wide* packages" is such a priority. But you *can* do this with venvs (with sudo of course) - for example: make a venv somewhere within /opt and install there - and if it's an "application" with a driver script, maybe even symlink it from /usr/local/bin. In fact, newer versions of pipx (https://pipx.pypa.io/stable/) wrap this exact process for applications (using a shared vendored copy of pip). I have more about this in a personal blog article here: https://zahlman.github.io/posts/2025/01/07/python-packagi...

It may help to think of the virtual environment as effectively a separate installation of Python - because it's close to that, just with symlinks to the "base" Python executable and special access to the standard library, instead of copying it all. If you get annoyed with remembering to "activate" a virtual environment, keep in mind that this actually does very little. Generally you can get by with just giving the path to the virtual environment's `python` symlink.

(There's no need for all-caps vitriol.)

Posted May 22, 2025 17:07 UTC (Thu) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (1 responses)

Fun fact: If a distro wants to support --user, it's not outrageously hard to do so. You just have to make sure that any system packages that require Python set the -s flag (on /usr/bin/python) or the PYTHONNOUSERSITE environment variable (to any value), and then whatever is in the user's home directory is silently ignored. I imagine there are varying levels of difficulty here:

* For stuff managed by whatever init you are using (let's not start a systemd holy war here), this should be trivial.
* For stuff managed by systemd --user (or any equivalent, as well as session-related stuff like GDM/KDM/login/getty/etc.), this should also be trivial.
* That just leaves binaries that the user runs. If it's run through the desktop shell, this can be configured in the .desktop file, and if it's run from the command line, it can be configured in the shebang line... unless you are using the #!/usr/bin/env python trick, in which case you already used up your one argument and cannot pass flags through to Python (or, for that matter, ask env to set the environment variable for you). But if you're the distro, you should know where Python is installed and do not need to use /usr/bin/env in the first place.

I imagine the main reason they don't do this in practice is the shebang. All of the other things can plausibly use the environment variable, which is preferable because it Just Works and does not require pervasively editing /usr/bin/python command line flags everywhere. The shebang, on the other hand, does require pervasive editing and also has the downside of not being automatically inherited by child processes. So it's a question of whether distros are willing to spend the time to support that.

(There's no need for all-caps vitriol.)

Posted May 29, 2025 21:16 UTC (Thu) by zahlman (guest, #175387) [Link]

> unless you are using the #!/usr/bin/env python trick, in which case you already used up your one argument and cannot pass flags through to Python (or, for that matter, ask env to set the environment variable for you). But if you're the distro, you should know where Python is installed and do not need to use /usr/bin/env in the first place.

More to the point, the distro *shouldn't* use /usr/bin/env this way, because that allows the user to override which Python is used - in particular, after "activating" a virtual environment, that would generally be used instead. Which will generally be Bad for system-provided scripts.

(But for the user's use, some versions of env support the -S flag, which *does* allow for passing command-line options like -s along to Python. And, of course, you can always put a shell wrapper around the startup process too.)

> I imagine the main reason they don't do this in practice is the shebang. All of the other things can plausibly use the environment variable, which is preferable because it Just Works and does not require pervasively editing /usr/bin/python command line flags everywhere. The shebang, on the other hand, does require pervasive editing and also has the downside of not being automatically inherited by child processes.

If the child is also Python code, there are other ways to run that code in a new process, but they aren't trivial changes.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 23, 2025 4:24 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (1 responses)

> I'm more of a Perl person than a Python person, and Perl happily lets you install both OS packages and packages from CPAN and manages to keep them in separate directories. Why can't Python do this?

I work with much more perl than python too, primarily on RHEL-style machines, and I don't run CPAN as root to install system wide files, I make RPMs. perl doesn't need a python-wheel style package format because the RPM integration with the perl/CPAN ecosystem is _excellent_ and by working directly with the system-wide package database including dependency management, you don't end up with two different ecosystems with a partial dependency graph fighting each other and breaking stuff, you just use the normal RPM mechanisms for detecting and resolving conflicts. From what I can tell the provided rpmmacros to pass Makefile.PL/Build.PL cli options are comprehensive and the provided scripts reliably collect the inbound and outbound runtime dependencies using simple regex matching for /^(use|require) (.+)/ and /^package "(.+)"/ with more specific builddeps templated in by `cpanspec`. It helps a lot that there is a standard naming convention mapping perl packages to RPM package and library dependency names, eg. perl lib `Foo::Bar` is rpm `perl-Foo-Bar` and provides `perl(Foo::Bar)`. python setuptools can create an RPM but it doesn't populate it with any of the data pip uses to resolve dependencies AFAICT and the RPM build macros/scripts don't seem to have any way to parse import statements to make that list either, or an agreed upon way to map between the two systems, if there are better tools which can give RPM the same info that pip/uv have I haven't found them yet.

I don't know enough about either ecosystems native packaging metadata formats to comprehensively compare and contrast them, I don't use them I just build my in-house perl using RPM and let the built-in rpmbuild scripts handle it, but I have found building python packages for system-wide install to be more complicated, and I never found a tool as good as `cpanspec` or even `rpmbuild-newspec -t perl` such that I've pretty much given up on it and just package an entire venv as an RPM that other scripts can depend on, rather than making individual RPMs for each part of the dependency tree (for NAPALM). I don't know if it's because python and pypi is operating at a much larger scale than cpan, so you see problems more often, or if the culture around backwards compatibility is very different, but with perl I've rarely or never had an app with an incompatible shared dependency with some other system-wide installed utility, or even libraries with breaking changes over the last 10-15 years, in fact some of the code in the darkest depths of the application appears to be written in a perl4 style and still works fine, but I've definitely had to be very careful with python because it's been far more common for some library in the dependency tree to bump a new major version that is incompatible and break the app at runtime, even when building a virtualenv I sometimes have to mask library versions until other parts catch up. I've also had the case where (re)installing a python app in a venv with a version that is more than 6mo old becomes difficult unless you froze a list of exactly what versions of the entire venv library set were available at the time the app was initially released, because it's basically guaranteed that something will have made an incompatible change in that time and the app won't run until you figure out which libraries you need to pin their versions back, which is very tedious if you run an app for longer than a 6-week sprint cadence. Maybe my old perl code is just depending on stagnant unmaintained libraries, stable because they are old and unchanging, but most of what we use is in RHEL or EPEL so must still be in active use by common shipping software, and we still haven't had nearly the problems as with python, but I can't make a definitive statement as to the true reasons why.

I wouldn't mind a deeper dive comparing CPAN to PyPI and NPM to see what problems each solved differently and why, CPAN is the OG maybe they learned something about how to do library management at scale, or maybe there are language support differences which means that the same solution in one ecosystem can't be translated to the other for technical reasons, or maybe there are longstanding policy differences that preclude some family of technical solutions to these problems. I dunno and can definitely stand to learn more about it.

I HATE PYTHON

Posted May 23, 2025 6:59 UTC (Fri) by AdamW (subscriber, #48457) [Link]

"if there are better tools which can give RPM the same info that pip/uv have I haven't found them yet."

Sure there are. Modern Fedora (and RHEL, 10.x at least, I don't remember how much is in 9.x) Python packages - with sane upstreams - can automatically generate both build and runtime dependencies and provides. Fedora Python packages always provide "python3dist(modulename)" for each module they contain, this is auto-generated.

https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines... is the sample spec from the modern packaging guidelines. You can see that there's very little in it, because an awful lot is done automatically.