Disappointment in all directions [LWN.net]

Disappointment in all directions

Posted May 4, 2025 16:46 UTC (Sun) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
In reply to: Disappointment in all directions by rbranco
Parent article: The conclusion of the FSF board review

The GNU Manifesto is far more a political document than a technical one, focusing on proprietary software as an attack on essential liberties. Even if we frame the rest of the free software movement as apolitical for the sake of argument, it's nonsense to suggest that the FSF is anything other than an inherently political organisation.

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Disappointment in all directions

Posted May 4, 2025 20:09 UTC (Sun) by rbranco (subscriber, #129813) [Link] (10 responses)

The GNU Manifesto focuses on one thing only. Being a party in the culture war is an entirely different beast.

Let's also avoid falling into trap of "everything is political". That's platitudes. When everything is political, nothing is.

Disappointment in all directions

Posted May 4, 2025 22:08 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (9 responses)

> Let's also avoid falling into trap of "everything is political". That's platitudes. When everything is political, nothing is.

So basically, you think we should all go off in hair shirts to live alone in caves as hermits?

Politics (big P) may be the art working together with others to achieve big aims, but politics (small p) is the art of getting along. If you don't want to indulge in politics, you need to opt out of society.

And sometimes being political means you need to say harsh truths. No I don't like it, but burying your head in the sand when other people are talking rubbish isn't a good idea. Which then leads into Religion/religion (same sort of big R little r distinction).

What's the saying? "You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts". Admittedly, made all the more complicated by the fact that some facts are just facts, while, as Einstein observed, some facts do really depend on the viewpoint of the observer.

Cheers,
Wol

Disappointment in all directions

Posted May 5, 2025 6:37 UTC (Mon) by rbranco (subscriber, #129813) [Link] (8 responses)

> Politics (big P) may be the art working together with others to achieve big aims, but politics (small p) is the art of getting along. If you don't want to indulge in politics, you need to opt out of society.

Computer geeks suck at p, so we end up with petty politics dividing communities. The FSF must not be hijacked for these.

> And sometimes being political means you need to say harsh truths. No I don't like it, but burying your head in the sand when other people are talking rubbish isn't a good idea. Which then leads into Religion/religion (same sort of big R little r distinction).

Sometimes those "harsh truths" are plain nonsense. One common occurrence is Popper's paradox taken out of context, capitalism vs socialism, etc. This is worsened by the fact that computer geeks are the most affected by the Dunning–Kruger effect.

Wild political theories must not pushed like a religion on everyone.

Disappointment in all directions

Posted May 6, 2025 15:28 UTC (Tue) by lunaryorn (guest, #111088) [Link] (7 responses)

Petty politics already exist within these communities, they already devide these communities, all the time. You just didn't notice yet because so far you always ended up the inner side of the dividing line. You probably didn't even see the line.

But the line exists, and some people are now starting to tear it apart because they belive that our software communities shouldn't casually exclude the majority of our societies, so you're only now starting to see the dividing line.

And that makes you afraid, because for the first time ever you fear you'll find suddenly yourself on the wrong side of the line. Which is how just about half of our society has always felt when it comes to our free software communities...

Disappointment in all directions

Posted May 6, 2025 17:47 UTC (Tue) by rbranco (subscriber, #129813) [Link] (6 responses)

You make far too many assumptions about me.

I saw the FOSS crowd sheer Hugo Chávez in the World Social Forum in Venezuela. RMS has idiotic views about him. But I don't judge people based on their political views... I learned to dismiss those.

I think I know a thing or two about true division and polarization. When society is teared in half, you haven't seen half of the movie yet. There comes a stage where people in each half tear each other apart. If you want to see the whole movie, allow extremists to hijack existing organizations.

Disappointment in all directions

Posted May 6, 2025 18:20 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (5 responses)

> But I don't judge people based on their political views... I learned to dismiss those.

That attitude works great... until the day you wake up to find that the leopards are about to eat your face.

> If you want to see the whole movie, allow extremists to hijack existing organizations.

No need to get hypothetical; we're now seeing this happen in real time to a >200-year-old organization that has a literal army at its disposal.

Disappointment in all directions

Posted May 6, 2025 19:41 UTC (Tue) by rbranco (subscriber, #129813) [Link] (4 responses)

> That attitude works great... until the day you wake up to find that the leopards are about to eat your face.

To a commonplace expression I can only reply with another: It takes two to tango...

Disappointment in all directions

Posted May 6, 2025 20:52 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (3 responses)

> But I don't judge people based on their political views... I learned to dismiss those.
> To a commonplace expression I can only reply with another: It takes two to tango...

You appear to be contradicting yourself.

Maybe this has more than run its course?

Posted May 6, 2025 21:01 UTC (Tue) by jake (editor, #205) [Link]

I don't see this sub-thread going anywhere useful for anyone ...

can we please just end it here?

thanks,

jake

Disappointment in all directions

Posted May 7, 2025 10:23 UTC (Wed) by rbranco (subscriber, #129813) [Link] (1 responses)

> You appear to be contradicting yourself.

No I don't. I happen to distrust people complaining about first world problems because they end up preaching third-worldism and cozying up to third-world tyrants.

RMS is radical enough in his own way to risk replacing him with someone even more radical, specially after the coward and lame attempts to smear him. It should give us a new appreciation for the State monopoly on justice, which is preferable to mob lynching.

Disappointment in all directions

Posted May 7, 2025 12:42 UTC (Wed) by daroc (editor, #160859) [Link]

This subthread doesn't seem likely to add much new to the discussion; let's stop the conversation here, please.