"Stateless Linux" project [LWN.net]

From:		Havoc Pennington <hp-AT-redhat.com>
To:		fedora-devel-list-AT-redhat.com
Subject:		"Stateless Linux" project
Date:		Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:42:35 -0400

Hi,

Red Hat engineering is starting a new project we're calling
"stateless Linux" for lack of a better name - some components of this
are already in Rawhide, and others will be appearing shortly.

We've been keeping the project a little bit quiet at first, but now
we've written it up in some detail:

 - an overview document, available from
   http://people.redhat.com/~hp/stateless/

 - a HOWTO document and a couple associated RPMs, available from
   http://people.redhat.com/dmalcolm/stateless/

There aren't many new RPMs for this, because stateless Linux isn't a
single codebase or package, it's a set of changes across the
distribution (you might think of it as a "philosophy"). Most of the
changes are already in Rawhide (the highlights are mentioned in the
StatelessLinux.pdf document).

Appreciate feedback, especially from anyone who has time to try out
the HOWTO. We expect the code to change quite a bit as issues and
suggestions come in.

Havoc



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"Stateless Linux" project

Posted Sep 14, 2004 8:56 UTC (Tue) by alexs (guest, #13637) [Link] (1 responses)

That project is about managing and providing boot and disk images
from sample machines to diskless an caching client machines plus
machines with a full setup.

why dont just tell the basics in some 50 words
in an announce about a "senseless" named new project?

-Alex.

"Stateless Linux" project

Posted Sep 14, 2004 15:29 UTC (Tue) by newren (guest, #5160) [Link]

If you want to start a project and get community involvement, it's a good idea to spell out your goals, how your project is similar to others (which, yes, unfortunately involves using all the familiar "buzz words"), how it differs, and a basic roadmap or plan for how you plan to begin achieving your goals. If you read this as an announcement to end users, yes, it looks overly verbose. If you read this as an open source developer who likes getting involved in projects, this type of document is very useful.

"Stateless Linux" project

Posted Sep 14, 2004 9:53 UTC (Tue) by job (guest, #670) [Link] (6 responses)

The PDF is 9 pages of technical marketspeak. They pretend mounting r/o NFS root is something new which sort of bothers me. Have they even read the LSB? After all, that mounting is why we separate architecture dependent /usr/bin from independent /usr/share.

But the project seems legit, and very ambitious. They plan to make it possible to 1) use and configure USB PnP hardware on a machine with r/o root and NO root privs, 2) set date+time etc. without root privs and 3) suggest a good network file system that caches (like disconnected AFS or CODA).

I often mount root from several clients, and upgrade the system from the server, as long as hardware is identical. This approach would make that more useful. It is good. (Only the paper, written for windows people and needs deciphering to read, is bad.)

"Stateless Linux" project

Posted Sep 14, 2004 14:02 UTC (Tue) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link] (3 responses)

The sad part is that all that marketspeak was written by a programming geek.. what is this world coming to when even the geeks can only speek technomarketing?

"Stateless Linux" project

Posted Sep 15, 2004 10:23 UTC (Wed) by hppnq (guest, #14462) [Link] (2 responses)

Maybe you are joking, in which case you can ignore this comment.

The comment is pointless in itself, and you are not doing Havoc justice. I am not even going to give you pointers to the numerous contributions he has made to the Open Source community. Think twice before you judge someone like that in public, if you don't want to look like a complete idiot.

Have you actually read the paper?! Where exactly is the "marketspeak"?

We need more people who are really good at the technical stuff and who are also able to tell others about it.

(And why is it that people have decided to aim their mindless rants at RedHat all of a sudden? Spare your breath for the real thing, mate, and go bother someone else in the mean time, if you please.)

"Stateless Linux" project

Posted Sep 15, 2004 11:37 UTC (Wed) by hppnq (guest, #14462) [Link] (1 responses)

(And why is it that people have decided to aim their mindless rants at RedHat all of a sudden? Spare your breath for the real thing, mate, and go bother someone else in the mean time, if you please.)

Sorry for replying to myself, but maybe I should clear this up a bit. First off, smoogen, the above remark was not aimed directly at you.

What annoys me is that the number of comments on LWN that fall in the category of ranting attacks on RedHat has risen to an alarming high, or at least so it appears to me. Is there something I missed?

After the whole discussion about Fedora's (lack of) interaction with the community we now get a proposal for the community to play with and a nice document explaining this proposal; I would think this is A Good Thing (TM).

Just drop your tinfoil hats for a moment, read the stuff, think about it, relax your trigger-happy mouse finger, say your favourite mantra, and then start thinking about how to word a comment if you have something to add to the discussion. I promise you I will do the same. ;-)

(Apologies to anyone who is fed up with having to wade through comments that are not actually adding anything to the discussion. I am with you. I like the excellent articles here at LWN, and the comments; there are some real gems every now and then. The last thing I want to do is add noise. ;-)

"Stateless Linux" project

Posted Sep 23, 2004 15:42 UTC (Thu) by job (guest, #670) [Link]

So your comment was directed at me then. The "marketspeak" is what the
paper is full of. "Marketspeak" because it is indeed correct but not
written in the terse technical sense we are used to, especially from Red
Hat.

There are no hats involved here, neither tinfoil nor red ones. That I, or
anyone else, should choose not to comment on it just because it is from
Havoc or Red Hat itself is something netiher of us wants, if you think
about it.

Obviously I read the paper since I summarized it above. Did you read my
comment?

"Stateless Linux" project

Posted Sep 14, 2004 15:00 UTC (Tue) by hp (guest, #5220) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't see how the paper pretends NFS mounting is something new, since it points out that LTSP already offers that on the first page. And the conclusion section has a long list of existing projects that already offer aspects of this, including mentioning LTSP again, and MIT Athena which is also based on read-only root.

The point is not that it's some kind of 100% revolutionary discovery, but that a long list of specific stuff needs doing in Fedora specifically to enable this functionality out of the box, in a nice clean framework, with UI that supports it (e.g. system-config-* tools that edit config files in /etc are not the right approach for desktops if we assume read-only /etc). There's a whole long list of implementation work to do.

The name "stateless Linux" is invented to highlight that diskless, "cached client", and boot-from-CD systems can be handled in the same framework; and to emphasize that the problem is larger than just getting tftp/pxe to work, you also have to change the OS extending up to the desktop user interface.

"Stateless Linux" project

Posted Sep 23, 2004 15:46 UTC (Thu) by job (guest, #670) [Link]

It does not point that out. LTSP is something different. This is what I
didn't like about the text. But I did say the project seems like a good
thing if you manage to read between the lines, didn't I?

an html version

Posted Sep 14, 2004 20:11 UTC (Tue) by merriam (guest, #474) [Link] (1 responses)

    To: hp@redhat.com
    Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 15:48:52 -0400 (EDT)
    Subject: StatelessLinux.html
    StatelessLinux.pdf is an interesting document, but pdf is awkward for some
    people and some uses.  There's something odd about this pdf in particular
    that seems to confuse even Acrobat on Windows -- not just third party
    tools.

    How about an html version?

[unpublished link to my html version]

    I couldn't find a license statement in the original document.  May I pass
    round the html version?  Should you specifically be credited as the
    author?

the html version

Posted Sep 14, 2004 22:22 UTC (Tue) by merriam (guest, #474) [Link]

Red Hat Introduction to Stateless Linux

The response was:

    You can post an HTML copy as long as the text is the same, thanks. You
    don't have to credit me specifically, just link to the original.