Parliament [LWN.net]

Parliament

Posted Mar 24, 2025 13:51 UTC (Mon) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167)
In reply to: Parliament by tialaramex
Parent article: OSI election ends with unsatisfying results

I had another thought.

Unlike many systems, and exactly like this OSI board, a British cabinet will consist of people who were elected. In some cases they'll have been elected on more or less the assumption that they'll be doing this exact job in the cabinet although the actual rules don't require that, it would be weird to win an election and then reward some previously unknown with a Great Office of State for example (e.g. Foreign Secretary, it was a scandal that a previous Tory admin had to appoint Lord Dave because that's effectively a slight to the Commons and arguably to the People who it represents not to select your Great Officers from among their ranks) even though that's technically legal.

Because they have democratic legitimacy - in a way that, for example Elon Musk does not - when they disagree they're not just speaking for themselves, they're speaking for great many more people, and so in this sense the solidarity argument breaks down. As a result it becomes not so much that they can't speak out as that it's clear *if* they speak out they can't keep that job in the executive. Which is something altogether different.

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Parliament

Posted Mar 24, 2025 15:24 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (4 responses)

It's the convention the cabinet in the UK are also a member of the house of parliament or house of lords, and it's typical that they are elected MPs, however they don't have to be. It's not that unusual to have a minister from the House of Lords - typically an appointed life peer. However, they can be anyone.

In Ireland, the government consists of ministers who must all be members of the oireachtas, so all elected, either by the wider general electorate to the dail or the Seanad (the somewhat toothless upper house, which has a restricted electorate, university members, etc.).

Parliament

Posted Mar 24, 2025 16:42 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> It's the convention the cabinet in the UK are also a member of the house of parliament or house of lords, and it's typical that they are elected MPs, however they don't have to be. It's not that unusual to have a minister from the House of Lords - typically an appointed life peer. However, they can be anyone.

It's only in the last 100 years or so that it's become typical for the executive to be elected MPs. Before the great reform by George V (1910-1935), it was the House of Lords with much of the power and most of the executive. That was probably the end of the great shift of power that began with the Civil War and execution of Charles I.

Cheers,
Wol

Parliament

Posted Mar 25, 2025 0:18 UTC (Tue) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] (2 responses)

That first part is not convention. Parliament requires that the King's ministers must be accountable to Parliament, it lacks a mechanism to oblige ordinary folk to attend and answer for their actions, so the ministers have to be in Parliament, the two choices available are that they could be Lords (in the upper chamber) or commoners (in the lower). In both cases it is within the power of the Parliament to compel them to come tell it what they have done and why.

Junior ministers are frequently "elevated" (made into a peer for life) specifically in order to make them a minister. If you want your old friend Jim Smith to be Minister for Video Games you announce that Jim gets a peerage, Lord Jim of Someplace, and make Lord Jim your Minister for Video Games, fine.

Of course because the Parliament is a sovereign entity it could arbitrarily change these rules, for example to create a tier of ministers who are compelled to attend but are not in parliament, and the previous administration did look at that option. Rule changes don't tend to stick, the Coalition decided to fix Parliamentary terms, that soon proved inconvenient and so the change was abolished again. But of course the rules we have now are an accumulation of rules which did stick, so anything (in this sense) is possible.

The convention is that Great Officers (those cabinet ministers who, under various names over the years, represent the core competencies of the executive, often given as the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Foreign Secretary and the Home Secretary must be MPs, that's not a rule it's just that if they are not (as Lord Dave wasn't) the only place they can easily be obliged to answer for what they've done is the Lords, which is obviously a slight to the MPs and their constituents, ie basically everyone in the country. It makes sense for a government which held its own population - including many of its own party members - in contempt that they'd do so I suppose.

Parliament

Posted Mar 25, 2025 1:19 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

> It makes sense for a government which held its own population - including many of its own party members - in contempt that they'd do so I suppose.

Are you a Brit? I can't remember. I certainly didn't feel it contemptuous especially given the light of history.

Nor did I find it contemptuous for that particular government. There's been plenty worse. And it's pretty much an inevitable consequence of our system of government. How come one election we get a government with a massive majority on a popular vote of 40%, and another government where the opposition was wiped out with 51% of the popular vote? It's the SYSTEM that doesn't respect the people. It's not a true representation of the wishes of the people. At all!

Mind you, a complete representation of what the people want would presumably be just as bad the other way. We've seen it elsewhere. It wasn't a debating chamber, it was a dead-locked arguing chamber with the Prime Minister's job being a rapidly revolving door ...

We've got the government history gave us. We've got the government we deserve. And quite frankly I don't find it contemptuous at all that the government would want an ex-Prime Minister's experience to help. The older I get, the more I feel that experience is valuable. And to call it contemptuous because people are ADULT enough to stand up and ask for help from someone with experience???

Cheers,
Wol

Parliament

Posted Mar 27, 2025 13:20 UTC (Thu) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

Yes, it's contempt. It says to me that from their point of view the hard work isn't necessary. Dave could be an MP if he wants, and if constituents will have him† he doesn't want, so he isn't an MP, well too bad. But they made him foreign secretary anyway, because they had no better candidates. Miserable, just accept that you can't govern the country with what's left of your party and make way for somebody who can.

† In practice you would parachute him into a safety Tory seat, my grandmother's old place would work, one of the safest seats in the whole country, A rotting corpse with the Conservative logo would handily win if it was allowed to stand. But that would be an imposition on poor Dave's time. Local party might even insist on meeting him. Tedious.

Parliament

Posted Mar 24, 2025 15:53 UTC (Mon) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link]

Another way is like in the Netherlands where members of cabinet cannot also be members of parliament. If you want to join the executive, you must vacate your seat in parliament. So you can't wear both hats at the same time. The cabinet can also include people that didn't appear on any ballot. Thus you get a strict separation between the executive and the legislature. Not even our prime minister has a vote in passing legislation (which also why legislation gets passed just fine even if it takes a few hundred days to form government, the executive is an optimisation, not a requirement).

Indirectly elected representatives (that is, people elected by elected representatives) are no less legitimate that directly elected ones, as long as the first layer of election is reasonably representative (i.e. any form of MMR).

The requirement to speak as one voice is because the cabinet consists of multiple parties hashing out a common position. If you don't like the common position, you're free to leave, or more likely, convince your party in the legislature to vote against it.

(This system was born out of the last set of culture wars, we'll see how it holds up this time.)

All of this is pretty far from the OSI board though.