LWN: Comments on "Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox"

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

crankysysadmin — 2004-02-14T12:42:53+00:00

> infringement can only happen if you're in the same market segment. A movie
> and a web browser are clearly different market segments. From what the
> Mozilla Foundation was told by lawyers, even databases, browsers, and video
> viewers are 3 different market segments.

Exactly, so why did they have to jump through hoops shying away from both Phoenix and Firebird? Neither was a web browser.

I agree with the "community" argument to a certain extent, but working out disputes can be taken to extremes, and I wish that the law was laxer on forcing you to defend your trademark. Of course, I also wish brand names and marketing weren't so important to so many consumers in the first place, since they have exactly nothing to do with the quality of a product, so clearly I expect too much.

Firefox????

tjc — 2004-02-10T16:10:10+00:00

Red panda has connotations of communist and lazy.

(The) Red Panda sounds like a Chinese restaurant to me. ;-)

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

tjc — 2004-02-10T16:07:08+00:00

It's faster for me too. Firebird 0.7 takes about 17 seconds to start the first time from a reboot on my system, compared to about 11 seconds for Firefox 0.8. Both take about 3 seconds on subsequent starts in the same session.

I'm hoping that by the time Firefox gets to version 1.0 it will have full support for the W3C DOM level 2 recommendation, but version 0.8 is still failing UIEvents, MutationEvents, and Traversal in my informal test. It's not a big deal, since it's already light years ahead of IE 6 (which fails EVERYTHING except level 1 core), but it would be nice.

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

tjc — 2004-02-10T15:37:35+00:00

Sometimes you can't even use your own name.

http://nissan.com/

German Firefox/Thunderbird ?

KaiRo — 2004-02-10T13:04:43+00:00

As it seems you understand German, there's this report on my page that basically holds true even now. There are currently projects translating Fir[bird|fox] and Thunderbird, AFAIK both based on my work, and I'm sure they're doing good work. And I'd really hate to disturb them. OTOH, I'll keep the Mozilla German project going on, and I'll translate the primary browser and mail clients of mozilla.org - as long as Seamonkey does exist, it look likely that this stays Seamonkey. If they flip to the stand-alone products as their main products, I intend to flip to those as well.

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

the_JinX — 2004-02-10T12:53:18+00:00

You mean this Firefox

The Firefox is a high tech fighter plane built by the Soviet Union. It's faster than any other fighter plane, and is undetectable to radar, and has a new weapon control system that is thought controlled.

Sounds like they are raising expectations with their new name ;)

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

sitaram — 2004-02-10T11:51:51+00:00

What a lot of passion for a name!

I wonder if anyone thought of using the name (as in "given name") of a specific phoenix in mythology. Not knowing any mythology that involves a phoenix, the only one I could think of is Fawkes -- Professor Dumbledore's pet bird in the Harry Potter series.

And guess what - fox rhymes with Fawkes ;-) So I'm happy!

Sitaram

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

james — 2004-02-10T09:29:53+00:00

Unfortunately, that particular piece of "IP" law isn't universal.

It's true, as far as I can tell, for the US and the UK. It's not true in France or Germany.

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

dlang — 2004-02-10T02:22:59+00:00

not to confuse this political talk with technical stuff, but my first reaction to moving from .7 to .8 was how MUCH faster it is to startup.

It does seem noticably faster (but some of that could just be expectations, no benchmarks have been done)

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

jamesh — 2004-02-10T00:48:01+00:00

You do realise that there were many more than just two programs going by the name "Firebird"? And that the database wasn't even the first program to use the name? (let alone the first free software program)

What would the Firebird Database people do if the Firebird BBS people complained about them stealing the name? My guess is that they would claim that there is no confusion due to one being a BBS and the other being a database.

There is a reason that trademarks are limited to cover particular subjects rather than being global ...

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

rknop — 2004-02-09T23:42:33+00:00

Well, yes, we have that issue too.

But the fact that you can't choose a name without hiring lawyers and searching proprietary databases, and that you are in danger of civil penalties if you choose wrong, is what really gets me all annoyed.

-Rob

...speaking of which. My name is Rob. So are lots of other people's. Yet we seem to cope.

-Rob

is this a Biblical name?

fLameDogg — 2004-02-09T23:39:51+00:00

...but then people might complain that it should be called "Firefoxen". Or something.

Worst name...

fLameDogg — 2004-02-09T23:37:57+00:00

FWIW, I like the name.

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

tjc — 2004-02-09T22:24:12+00:00

When it takes this much effort for a free software organization to find a safe *name* for their project, it's clear that we've got some global issues with proprietization of words.

What we really have is a global namespace issue. But I think it may work out for the best in this case. I would rather call my web browser "Firefox" (not to be confused with entertainment.movies.firefox) than "software dot webclients dot Firebird."

other Firebird's

hensema — 2004-02-09T21:59:55+00:00

There were two significant OSS projects called firebird: the database and the browser. Now there's only one left.

is this a Biblical name?

error27 — 2004-02-09T21:40:55+00:00

Is the name a reference to Samson from the book of Judges? He was the fellow who lit a bunch of foxes tails on fire and let them loose in some fields.

The thing is that Samson tied the foxes into pairs so that they would run more randomly and the Firefox logo only shows one fox instead of two. Perhaps somone can correct this detail?

Firefox????

jsebrech — 2004-02-09T20:57:20+00:00

Hmm, I don't know. For me firefox has connotations of fast and clever. Red panda has connotations of communist and lazy. But then that's just me.

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

elanthis — 2004-02-09T20:10:42+00:00

The old name was confusing. I constantly would see news regarding one and mistake it for the other. It had nothing to do with "this project used the same name and whined about it" and everything to do with "what the hell is this news article referencing 'Firebird' actually about: the browser or the DB?"

The only problem in this situation at all is that Mozilla has gone with 'Firebird' for a while now, vs switching earlier before the world got accustomed to the name.

German Firefox/Thunderbird ?

gadeiros — 2004-02-09T19:58:56+00:00

Hi KaiRo.

Are you planning to translate also Firefox and Thunderbird ? Or do you stick with Seamonkey ?
If not, is there any planning by others you know of (mozilla.org ?) to do this ?

Couldn't find a hint on your homepage.

Regards,
Harald Henkel

Humans are not perfect

proski — 2004-02-09T19:49:15+00:00

That's the way how human brain works. Perhaps the aliens would also be surprized that we give names to individuals instead of numbers. It's easier for humans to remember "Firebird" than "Project 534091". If two projects are called "Firebird", those strange humans can become confused.

Worst name...

KaiRo — 2004-02-09T18:55:49+00:00

Read Ben's blog posting to see how they came around to chose that name. It was not out-of-the-blue or anything similar. The project leaders went through a list of over two hundred names that had been proposed, seeing none was either something they liked, or legally OK. Then they started looking through names sttarting with fire- so that they could keep some of their flame imagery they already had from Phoenix and Firebird times.

And to quote the Firefox name FAQ:

"But I hate the new name. It's stupid.

Our editors are trying to figure out whether this is a question. Of course not everyone will like the new name, especially at first. We're confident most people will quickly get used to it. New names have a way of sounding terrible at first. If you're unhappy with the new name, consider trying out the many improvements we've made in the latest release of our browser - we hope that'll make you feel better. After all, what's most important is how the thing works, not what it's called.

-- Steve Garrity, Gervase Markham, Ben Goodger, Bart Decrem et al. "

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

KaiRo — 2004-02-09T18:41:35+00:00

if they were beaten bloody, they'd better not have changed the name at all, as that's not how to do communication.
If they would have been less flamed but instead the projects leaders (drivers) were contacted by Firebird database project leaders, I bet they'd even had reacted faster and more friendly.
Even people in the Mozilla community who don't like the now-called Firefox browser too much felt like the Firebird databse people wanted to start a war aginst us, and probably won't think of using that product because of some stupid feelings that arise when you feel getting attacked by someone you didn't even know before.
With peaceful communication instead of wars, we'd probably live more happy together now and had resolved those issues faster.

Robert Kaiser
(being no official of mozilla.org in any way, only a small contributor and leading the German l10n project of the Mozilla)

Worst name...

sphealey — 2004-02-09T18:34:49+00:00

Worst. Project name. Ever.

There must be 10,000 names of lizards-type creatures that would be catchy and amusing, but it seems that someone has decided to put that thought down the memory hole.

sPh

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

sphealey — 2004-02-09T18:32:53+00:00

They did not consider, however, that (legally independent, because it's a different kind of software) there was already a not small, but not too public either, open-source project named "Firebird". After seeing that this was a peoblem, though not lagally, they decided to prefix the name with "Mozilla" so that "Mozilla Firebird" would clearly be a different thing. But after a short period, they saw that coming up with a different name again (sigh) was the nicer and more friendly way to go.

If you mean the word "saw" to be short for "was beaten bloodly by the Firebird and general FOSS communities, but like most people in the tech world was absolutely unable to admit to an error", then I agree with your post!

sPh

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

smoogen — 2004-02-09T18:17:45+00:00

Actually in some of the later Japanese Godzilla movies, Godzilla isnt completely flightless. He uses his breath weapon as a rocket to fly backwards.. of course his landings are pretty much "Use big building/hill/monastary to stop me".

other Firebird's

TimCunningham — 2004-02-09T18:16:53+00:00

That was the other. (They were counting Firebird the browser, too.)

other Firebird's

ncm — 2004-02-09T18:14:57+00:00

There was a BBS named firebird.

Firefox????

jensend — 2004-02-09T18:10:06+00:00

"Red Panda" would be a better name, as would just about anything else. It looks like USPTO only has one entry for anything named "Red Panda" - a graphics company which I guess went out of business and cancelled its trademark in 2001.

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

KaiRo — 2004-02-09T17:59:36+00:00

Well, they insisted in Firebird for the time being, as it was at least legally without problems, and Phoenix wasn't.

Anyways, mozilla.org agreed with the copyright holders of Godzilla not to name any new products ending in -zilla, so what you proposed wouldn't work.

other Firebird's

ccyoung — 2004-02-09T17:57:25+00:00

After Firebird, it should have been named Petrushka, then Rite of Spring.

That aside: Borland's GPL'd(?) Interbase is Firebird. Posters mentioned there were two significant OSS progjects. What's the other?

Firefox????

ballombe — 2004-02-09T17:49:11+00:00

   
> BTW, Firefox is a cute littel animal also called the Red or Lesser   
> Panda, belonging the the Panda family...

It is certainly a cute little animal, but it is not clear whether it belongs to the same family as the Giant Panda. See the wikipedia entry which include a nice photograph.

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

ncm — 2004-02-09T17:44:38+00:00

I had suggested "emuzilla" or "moazilla", on the assumption they wanted to stick with the avian theme. Of course the emu and the moa are both flightless birds, but arguably (although less so, these days) so is Godzilla, Mozilla's namesake. I.e., Godzilla certainly is flightless, but might or might not be of a clade ancestral to birds.

Moas are more impressive than emus, but are (recently) extinct. Both birds' bipedal locomotion, useless forelimbs, and fierce nature seemed more or less appropriate to the project.

What is worst about the whole fiasco is not the repeated renaming, but the contempt displayed by the principals in the project who insisted on Firebird, in the first place, despite knowing about the other project already. I would never hire people like them. Actually, it's generally foolish to use any dictionary word as a trademark, when it's so easy to invent a word that certainly does not collide with any existing product/project.

Firefox????

KaiRo — 2004-02-09T17:37:41+00:00

Thanks for point that out exactly...
I didn't want to use "family" in the exact biological meaning here, but you're right. I should have said "Fire Fox is a relative to the Pandas" or something like that. Anyhow, it's a quite cute animal :)

Firefox????

proski — 2004-02-09T17:28:51+00:00

The is no Panda family. Giant panda belongs to the same family as bears, while lesser panda is from the same family as raccoons. More information san be found on the Carnivora page of the Tree of Life.

Pictures of lesser panda, courtesy of Google.

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

JoeBuck — 2004-02-09T17:20:07+00:00

Even in the absence of trademark law, it would still be advisable to give different programs different names. As it was, there were two significant free software programs named Firebird. Changing the name of the newer one in a case like this is good manners.

Firefox????

KaiRo — 2004-02-09T17:10:35+00:00

You don't have to like the name... just like the software ;-)

And you can always stick with plain Mozilla 1.6 (or call it "Seamonkey", like we've been doing for years now).

BTW, Firefox is a cute littel animal, also called the Red or Lesser Panda, belonging the the Panda family...

Firefox????

xorbe — 2004-02-09T17:07:26+00:00

I agree on this one... I'm already having nightmares about telling people at work to run Firefox!

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

southey — 2004-02-09T17:06:52+00:00

It was released in 1982 by Warner Bros with Clint Eastwood starring and directing. It was based on Graig Thomas's excellent 1977 book of the same name. But, he is a very difficult author to get in the USA.

http://uk.geocities.com/hindgunship/fr_home.htm

Firefox????

jensend — 2004-02-09T17:04:19+00:00

Worst. Project name. Evar.

Mozilla Firebird becomes Firefox

KaiRo — 2004-02-09T17:02:17+00:00

Mozilla Foundation has been in the trademark registering process for Firefox since December, and it's clear that infringement can only happen if you're in the same market segment. A movie and a web browser are clearly different market segments.
From what the Mozilla Foundation was told by lawyers, even databases, browsers, and video viewers are 3 different market segments. And you can only register your trademark for one market segment (or whatever they call it officially).

Robert Kaiser