LWN: Comments on "OOXML approved as an ISO standard"

No it isn't

foo-bar — 2008-04-08T05:27:48+00:00

I didn't say it's immune to bribery. However IMHO the bribery must be on a different scale to
be efficient :-)

No it isn't

man_ls — 2008-04-03T22:38:14+00:00

Apparently not that immune to bribery:

There was a massive protest when Standard Norge decided that Norway will say yes to OOXML, despite the fact that most of the comitee-representatives were against.

Link found on LWN cover story

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

foo-bar — 2008-04-03T04:17:28+00:00

To my understanding it won't work this way in Norway. This country is too rich and too
independent to be bribed in that trivial way. (I'm not an Norwegian BTW).

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

man_ls — 2008-04-02T21:56:32+00:00

Oh well. Maybe a few Norwegian ministries will get a substantial discount on the next Office license, and maybe they will forget about it. It wouldn't even be illegal, probably.

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

mszeliga — 2008-04-02T21:17:41+00:00

According to ISO rules there are now two months until the approved standard becomes a
standard, due this period any P-member may protest against the standard (and we already know
that Norway have stated that they will protest).

You think THIS is weird?

khim — 2008-04-02T21:04:14+00:00

Apparently Russia is using "silent vote": if technical specialists say nothing (for example because they had no time or were unable to reach consensus or even if they ignored issue completely) clerks automatically send "YES" vote to ISO. This is what happened with OOXML, but apparently this is NOT new procedure invented for OOXML. With rules like this it's a wonder that ISO creates usable specifications from time to time...

OOXML cast a light on ISO's work - and it's NOT pretty. Lot's of rules, but no real substance. Even before Microsoft's manipulations. Why do we trust this organization at all?

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

ernest — 2008-04-02T19:48:56+00:00

People don't care. Beside, most people will never even hear about the real story.

Question: How many people here ever heard about how ISO made a new standard before OOXML was
proposed ? 

Did anybody here care before OOXML came along ? I didn't.

That is the current situation for 99.9% of the world.

The only reputation ISO needs is in the name.

Ernest.

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

nix — 2008-04-02T19:22:33+00:00

In the computing field, sure. But except for a few language specs ISO has 
never really been especially important there, has it? The field prefers 
other methods (such as de facto standards, from icky Office up to, say, 
major scripting languages, many of which have only one implementation but 
are widely used nonetheless).

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

alecs1 — 2008-04-02T19:16:59+00:00

If anyone is interested, I have a link on how voting took place in Romania:
http://aranea.zuavra.net/index.php/97/
This guy details the voting process. In short, half the 27 members of the comitee joined ASRO
(The Romanian Standardization Association) in the last minute, and 10 of them voted yes. Most
of these late guys are very small companies with products based entirely on Microsoft
technologies. 
From the 15, 6 members were only made public in the day of the vote. 
The results were: 15 pro, 6 against, 5 abstained.

With the previous ocasion, *after* voting the comitee took a few minutes to actually discuss
what they voted, one of the pro voters said: "hey, this standard has references to things that
are not standard, we standardise, but no really";.

I don't know about other countries, but I wouldn't expect any vertebral column from a comitee
based in Romania of these times.

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

dark — 2008-04-02T18:29:08+00:00

Indeed. So much for ISO. ISO has approved a standard that it hasn't even read. The text of the revised draft (which, among many other changes, has been split into eight parts and has 1500 new pages) was not available at the time of voting. I don't see how a standard organization's credibility can ever recover from that.

It's not all bad. We'll just have to go back to arguing for standards on their merits, instead of their stamps of approval :)

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

dskoll — 2008-04-02T17:55:38+00:00

Mmmm... point taken.

Microsoft is probably under a bit more scrutiny nowadays.  But still, ISO's credibility is
completely shot now.

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

nix — 2008-04-02T16:41:00+00:00

Yeah, the way it was punished when Windows NT failed to actually conform to the POSIX
standard.

(Er, wait...)

Is this a joke?

khim — 2008-04-02T16:19:16+00:00

Microsoft -- out of desperation -- jumped into the unknown world of international standards, tried to manipulate it with some success & finally ended up entangled forever in the big global community where friendly US courts & legislators have no power & the USA itself has less & less influence.

Microsoft knows exactly what it does. And it's not new to "the unknown world of international standards". Take a look on this international standard. Note date. Rivals had proprietary API, Microsoft had an "open" API. Then later when the treat passed Microsoft happily abandoned all pretence. This time stakes were higher since ODF got ISO approval but the idea is the same: make your offer "standard" then quickly make it irrelevant (beta of MS Office 14 is almost ready).

Sorry, but this is not the first time Microsoft perverted and abused standards process. Not even close. That's just first time Microsoft perverted and abused ISO.

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

dskoll — 2008-04-02T15:51:21+00:00

If Microsoft wins a contract because it claims compliance with the OOXML ISO standard, then it
can be punished if it fails to comply with the standard.

So the ISO blessing is a double-edged sword for MSFT.

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

bronson — 2008-04-02T15:39:09+00:00

Well, so much for the ISO!  I hope someone writes a book on how Microsoft subverted the ISO's
standards process.  I think it would be fascinating.  Clearly MS learned from their initial
gaffes and are now quite adept at it.

Oh well!  This doesn't really affect my life.  I don't think I've used a word processor since
2003.  :)

reality check

jabby — 2008-04-02T14:56:40+00:00

I find this view to be rather naive.

Microsoft has no problem navigating the world of international standards and patents.  It has
an army of lawyers and it knows exactly what it's doing.

Moreover, contrary to your worldview, the U.S. routinely ignores WTO rulings and strong-arms
international bodies (like the U.N.) and the trend for this behavior is on the *increase*.

Microsoft only gains credibility and wider adoption by having OOXML as an ISO standard.  It
sacrifices very little (some bureaucratic effort and the publication of some portion of its
file formats) and retains all of its other powers and benefits as an international corporate
behemoth (patents, copyrights, trademarks, trade secrets, proprietary binary blobs, DRM,
etc.).  

I'm afraid we see the situation quite differently.

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

jamesh — 2008-04-02T14:42:40+00:00

It isn't actually illegal not to follow an ISO standard.  If it was, then Microsoft would have
had to implement ODF :)

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

kh — 2008-04-02T14:32:23+00:00

Here is one example, or maybe you thinking more along the lines of Kerberos?

And that does not even get into patent issues.

Quoting: "17. Not content with Microsoft's corruption of the Kerberos standard, Microsoft has filed for a patent on its proprietary version. Consequently, not only will Microsoft products fail to interoperate with non-Microsoft products (because of the modification), but Microsoft will not allow anyone else to use its version unless they purchase a license from Microsoft."

I think you can try to license Microsoft's Kerberos patents from this page.

I don't think there is any silver lining in this cloud.

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

purslow — 2008-04-02T14:17:41+00:00

Exactly !  Microsoft can now be required under international law
to comply with the ISO standard & to publish all the material needed
to allow others to comply with it.  The company can no longer hide
behind the self-serving US legal system & a compliant US Congress.
Free-software developers & users everywhere -- incl in the USA --
can use the new international standard to force Microsoft into line.

Perhaps this is difficult for those who live in the USA to understand,
but those of us who don't should have no problem seizing the opportunity.

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

rfunk — 2008-04-02T14:04:48+00:00

The latest version of MS Office doesn't even comply with this standard.

Others can't comply because it references unpublished material.

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

jnsc — 2008-04-02T14:00:48+00:00

You are one day late for an april fool's day joke.

:-(

OOXML approved as an ISO standard

purslow — 2008-04-02T14:00:16+00:00

I don't like Microsoft's misbehaviours any more than the rest,
but isn't this really a big step forwards for free software ?

Apart from making a mockery of the ISO fast-track process 
& leaving themselves open to all kinds of appeals,
Microsoft has now tied itself down to an international standard.
Of course, it's badly flawed & based on their own software internals,
but they can now be required by everyone, incl free-software users,
to adhere to the ISO standard & to make sure their own products,
not least Microsoft Office, fully comply with it.
They can also be required to clarify any obscurities
& to ensure that it is actually useable by the rest of us.
Users of free office software will be able to interface
with Microsoft Office without any serious difficulties
or Microsoft will find itself facing action before the WTO & the courts.

Microsoft -- out of desperation -- jumped into the unknown world
of international standards, tried to manipulate it with some success
& finally ended up entangled forever in the big global community
where friendly US courts & legislators have no power
& the USA itself has less & less influence.

Let's hope the developers of Open Office, Koffice & the rest
are fully upto the opportunities which have opened up before them !