LWN: Comments on "Playing with the N800"

"Open" device

mrfredsmoothie — 2007-03-27T14:02:39+00:00

You are correct, however, IMHO my assumption is not such a stretch, particularly given the fanfare that accompanied the announcement of the device initially.

"Open" device

net_bh — 2007-03-27T11:31:23+00:00

>I would like it if reviews about a device advertized by its manufacturer as >a "Linux-based" device informed readers prior to shelling out $450 or so >that they might not want to assume that means they can, say, modify all of >the software or build a fully equivalent environment from the sources and >information provided (without basically reverse engineering a bunch of >things).

This is based on your assumption that every device that runs Linux (the kernel) somehow has to have the whole stack (userspace+middleware+kernel) open sourced. I am not sure there are many devices and software stacks out in the market that allow that. Openmoko is probably the first such attempt.

I am not questioning your wanting the whole stack open-sourced. But implying that Nokia is misleading people into believing that is the case is a stretch of imagination.

"Open" device

mrfredsmoothie — 2007-03-23T23:46:07+00:00

Right. It has been clarified in the form of various comments in diverse threads scattered across maemo-dev and maemo-users, _some_ of which contained such gems as "I cannot say more about it for legal reasons that hopefully will be removed in a near future, but if you are willing to take a friendly advice, all you need is right under your nose."

I said in my post that Igor and other Nokia employees have tried to be helpful to the extent that they are allowed.

However, I subscribe to _this_ site for news about and advocacy of Free Software, and I would like it if reviews about a device advertized by its manufacturer as a "Linux-based" device informed readers prior to shelling out $450 or so that they might not want to assume that means they can, say, modify all of the software or build a fully equivalent environment from the sources and information provided (without basically reverse engineering a bunch of things).

Pretty radical, I know.

"Open" device

net_bh — 2007-03-23T22:32:53+00:00

There we go about closed power management again. It has been clarified plenty of times that _ALL_ of the power management code is in the kernel and open sourced! The closed code only controls display backlight ON/OFF/dim states.

Although I won't claim that it is easy for developers to roll their own rootfs currently, it is fairly trivial to figure out what the closed components do and write replacements if somebody was that motivated. Just spreading misinformation is not going to get Nokia to open that code in a hurry. It will happen when it will happen, if it will happen.

/Amit

Playing with the N800

mgedmin — 2007-03-22T22:49:04+00:00

Ah, no. The .install files in the current version can only specify one repository. And that's the problem: apparently vim and gnumeric need some dependencies from some other repository (most likely repository.maemo.org with or without extras).

That's a big shame, especially when such problems are not noticed when testing .install files on tables that already have those extra repositories configured. (I created the vim and gnumeric .install files, and they Worked On My Tablets.)

The solution, I suppose, is to abandon this repository mess and upload all packages to a single repository (Maemo Extras is the obvious candidate).

An alternative solution is to wait for a new OS2007 update with the new .install file format that allows one to specify more than one repository. I don't think this one is as good, because some users will not upgrade their OS, and some developers will not notice that some dependencies come from a different package.

"Open" device

mrfredsmoothie — 2007-03-22T20:01:02+00:00

Jon, I'm disappointed: this article doesn't live up to your usual standards of journalism or free software advocacy, IMO.

The truth is, this is a _somewhat_ open device, as there are a bunch of undocumented and/or proprietary hardware and software components without which the device doesn't function to its full capabilities (in areas as basic as power management) and which the wider developer community is not _easily_ empowered to fix (to be fair, some Nokia employees such as Igor Stoppa have helpfully tried to drop unofficial hints on the maemo-dev mailing lists to try to make that easier, but it's nothing compared to having full source and documentation).

Furthermore, one of your pet bugbears, abandoned hardware, has happened already on the N800's progenitor! Nokia has abandoned the Nokia 770 as far as official OS images goes (again, to be fair, they have released a compatibility version of the latest Internet Tablet OS for _developers_, primarily so those who don't have N800s can use their N770s to develop N800-compatible apps).

I wish you had used LWN's high profile (and my subscription $) to raise these issues in your article.

Playing with the N800

caitlinbestler — 2007-03-22T19:30:50+00:00

My biggest disapointment with the N800 is that getting started with building your own code is a *far* more complex process than for Linux in general or for MacOS X. In particular I cannot understand why they cannot have a simple cross-compiler and a simple events library to deal with the touchscreen.

Playing with the N800

dwa — 2007-03-22T18:02:53+00:00

Have you attempted playing any videos off of SD cards, e.g. MPEG4? I'm *very* curious how well it would perform at that...

Playing with the N800

jeskritt — 2007-03-22T17:44:30+00:00

oh and you might want to google for the red pill/blue pill easter egg in the app manager. I forget how to do it off the top of my head, but it gives you better access to the package management.

Playing with the N800

jeskritt — 2007-03-22T17:40:33+00:00

I recently got a N800 as well. using info from http://www.internettablettalk.com/ forums I had no problem setting up some 3rd party repos. once set up you can turn the tablet into a more traditional seeming linux platform. plus I never get a dependency issue.

Also I like using a bluetooth keyboard with the tablet if I'm doing anymore then casual web browsing. I really like the stoaway ( http://www.expansys.ca/p.aspx?i=113674 )

btw maemo-mapper is a really nice app even without a gps unit.

Playing with the N800

humberto — 2007-03-22T14:26:12+00:00

Yes, the package system uses debs, and apt-get works. The problem is when an app depends on a package that isn't in the default repositories.

The .install files have a work around, you can list several "required repositories", and the package system should be able to pull in all the dependencies.

Searching through the maemo wiki should help find installation instructions for many of the multiple-repository packages, while the .install files get written.

Playing with the N800

broonie — 2007-03-22T11:54:43+00:00

I believe that the application manager on the N800 is actually an apt front end. As you say, buggy repository and/or repository adding instructions.

Playing with the N800

gouyou — 2007-03-22T10:49:57+00:00

So most of the Linux PC sold with a distribution including non free software wouldn't be compliant ... That's pushing it far.

The Kororaa article talks about kernel drivers, not software depending in no way to GPL software.

Playing with the N800

anselm — 2007-03-22T09:07:40+00:00

Great. So put the flash player package on an SD card that comes with the
device, and have the user install it himself.

Anselm

Playing with the N800

JohnNilsson — 2007-03-22T06:04:02+00:00

I don't thing this device is "a volume of a storage or distribution medium". It has a purpose besides distribution.

Compare it to the Kororaa Project [1]

[1] http://kororaa.org/static.php?page=gpl

Playing with the N800

tetromino — 2007-03-22T05:59:39+00:00

> Isn't that a GPL violation?

No.

Quoth the GPL:
>In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program
>with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of
>a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under
>the scope of this License.

Playing with the N800

JohnNilsson — 2007-03-22T05:24:23+00:00

The N800 includes a (proprietary) Flash player and a media player as well.

Isn't that a GPL violation? (Assuming that the player can be seen "as part of a whole which is a work based on the Program" (GNU/Linux))

Playing with the N800

daniels — 2007-03-22T02:12:32+00:00

Nope. "Handling dependencies just fine" means automatically downloading the depended-on packages, like apt-get does

The application manager does exactly this.

as well as making sure that package repositories are complete and consistent.

How exactly should an application running on a random user's device fix bugs in a package repository run by Nokia?

Messages indicating missing dependencies are bugs, either in the software or in the package repository.

Bingo. As I said above, the repository seems to have some issues.

Playing with the N800

JoeBuck — 2007-03-22T01:51:48+00:00

Nope. "Handling dependencies just fine" means automatically downloading the depended-on packages, like apt-get does, as well as making sure that package repositories are complete and consistent. Messages indicating missing dependencies are bugs, either in the software or in the package repository.

Playing with the N800

daniels — 2007-03-22T01:19:02+00:00

<em>Such a message would perhaps have been acceptable ten years ago on some distributions. One would not expect to see it on a Debian-based system in 2007. There is no excuse for an "application manager" which is unable to handle dependencies anymore.</em>

The application manager handles dependencies just fine, which is why it shows that message. Unfortunately, the repositories can be, um, tricky. For me, I discovered I only had the bora-extras repository, but needed to add bora as well.

(Disclaimer: I work for Nokia on the N800, but have no particular insight into why this is.)