LWN: Comments on "Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey"

Abdullah Demirbas acquitted of "spreading terrorist propaganda".

roelofs — 2006-12-05T23:37:31+00:00

When searching Google for Article 220/8 of the Turkish Penal Code, pages mentioning both Linux and Demirbas are the first hits despite the case being so recent.

That's almost certainly because it's so recent. Search engines are all about information retrieval on the basis of minimal user input (typically two or three query terms), and that necessarily involves a great deal of inference about context. Current events are excellent context. (Recent query-click statistics are also good context--i.e., if most users have been clicking on the Linux/Demirbas links for that or related queries, then those are probably the most relevant links for such queries.)

Armenian terrorism and Azeri Genocide

tjc — 2006-12-04T16:01:47+00:00

You cannot access the following Web address: http://www.karabakh.gen.az/
[snip]
The site you requested is blocked under the following categories: Tasteless/Gross

Vengefulness

xoddam — 2006-12-03T04:13:52+00:00

Ataturk had some great ideas and made some very positive changes, but a natural consequence of many of his reforms was to provoke envy and vengefulness on the part of the old guard (including the religious establishment) and ethnic minorities. Under Ataturk, the rump of Turkey which was left after the carve-up by the victorious powers in WWI struck back and reclaimed territory which was inhabited by people who weren't quite as completely Turkish as the Republic would have liked. Greek speakers were forced to emigrate to the Kingdom of Greece and surviving Christian Armenians to the Democratic Republic of Armenia, while Kurds and Muslim Armenians were told that they were now Turkish citizens and would therefore have to become Turks.

A pleasant-enough sounding idea, but forced migration, denigration of religious traditions and suppression of linguistic identity predictably led to suffering, vengefulness and bloody conflict. Ataturk was no saint.

Vengefulness

xoddam — 2006-12-03T03:56:30+00:00

Abdullah Demirbas acquitted of "spreading terrorist propaganda".

xoddam — 2006-12-03T03:40:51+00:00

> > I suggest you making a google search before saying such nonsense

I said it precisely on the basis of a Google search: When searching Google for Article 220/8 of the Turkish Penal Code, pages mentioning both Linux and Demirbas are the first hits despite the case being so recent. International publicisation of the propaganda law has been almost nonexistent until this case. This would be precisely because links to those pages are being posted on Linux-related websites and mailing lists, and to Demirbas' presence at the European Social Forum. Of course my comment was speculative, hence the word "possibly".

I don't mean to suggest that the thought that people in every country of the world are interested in the result would necessarily affect the verdict of a panel of honourable judges. At least, not any more or less than the prospect of close economic ties with Europe might bring about the repeal of laws which have been enforced with extreme prejudice for eight decades. Laws which, as you point out, have recently been repealed. Hmmm.

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

kazmakurek — 2006-12-02T22:47:35+00:00

"Citizens of the world should be educated in such a way that they shall no longer feel envy, avarice and vengefulness." Ataturk

Armenian terrorism and Azeri Genocide

kazmakurek — 2006-12-02T22:32:59+00:00

http://www.karabakh.gen.az/

Abdullah Demirbas acquitted of "spreading terrorist propaganda".

hilmi — 2006-12-02T21:21:26+00:00

> Can you explain this? Has anyone posted anything false here?

Reason for investigation wasn't the act of localization of Ubuntu (as
we've learned from the link you've given). Incident has shown that since
the investigation wasn't about localization of Ubuntu it's not illegal to
localize Linux in Turkey (otherwise that would be another subject for
investigation). It's not a surprise for me because I already knew and was
saying that localization of Linux to your mother tongue is not illegal in
Turkey.

Abdullah Demirbas acquitted of "spreading terrorist propaganda".

xoddam — 2006-12-02T11:50:38+00:00

> the story turned out to be a false one

Can you explain this? Has anyone posted anything false here?

> At least, I don't want to get started to discuss things which
> bothers me in the world on lwn.net. Really, this is
> not the right place.

We've been discussing things which bother us in the world on this forum since comment posting first started about four years ago. If you, personally, don't want to do so ... you're free to remain silent.

Abdullah Demirbas acquitted of "spreading terrorist propaganda".

hilmi — 2006-12-02T08:14:29+00:00

> There are other platforms which are more suitable for spreading your
> propaganda.

I didn't intentionally use same words in the subject line by the way. But
I really think you should move this discussion to a different platform
because the story turned out to be a false one and lwn.net is not a
general discussion platform. At least, I don't want to get started to
discuss things which bothers me in the world on lwn.net. Really, this is
not the right place. Thanks.

Abdullah Demirbas acquitted of "spreading terrorist propaganda".

hilmi — 2006-12-02T07:56:28+00:00

> There's nothing off-topic about our discussion.

No there's, it's been shown that it's not "illegal" to localize Linux in
Turkey so I think discussion on this platform should end. There are other
platforms which are more suitable for spreading your propaganda.

> The fact that Linux is, at least tangentially, involved here has
> contributed to the worldwide publicisation of the case and possibly
> therefore to the acquittal.

I suggest you making a google search before saying such nonsense. This
incident didn't get much media coverage even if we accepted the idea that
world wide publication could affect judges' decisions.

The Turkish government has always had ...issues with the Kurds.

kazmakurek — 2006-12-02T07:11:50+00:00

No version of Linux distributions are banned by the Turkish Government. We welcome Vatican Ubuntu or others like we welcomed the Pope himself :) There are also hot news about Pardus now it is possible to install Pardus not only in Turkish, English, German or Dutch but also Spanish :)))

http://www.gnebu.es/articulo.php?id=24
http://www.pardus-linux.nl/
http://pardus.it/

Armenians

kazmakurek — 2006-12-02T06:55:32+00:00

When you find an odd news about Turkiye, you are ready to make propaganda for the armenian issue and you are ready to attack Turkiye!

This ground is not for politic propaganda and what you talk about is not related with Linux! Are you really a linux user? I don't think even you care about linux or humanity!!

Let's talk about Linux here, The Pardus Linux project has announced the availability of a Pardus Linux 2007 release candidate. According to the changelog, the new version comes with support also for Spanish during system installation :)

http://www.pardus.org.tr/eng/index.html

Abdullah Demirbas acquitted of "spreading terrorist propaganda".

xoddam — 2006-12-02T02:16:08+00:00

> Court acquits the person but you're still talking about "legal barrier
> against free speech". Anyway, since we've learned that case wasn't
> about Linux, I think we should stop the off-topic discussion here.

There's nothing off-topic about our discussion.

LWN often covers free speech issues, whether Everyone's Favourite Operating System is involved or not. The fact that Linux is, at least tangentially, involved here has contributed to the worldwide publicisation of the case and possibly therefore to the acquittal.

Free software is all about free speech. If there is a law which puts someone in jeapordy of three years' imprisonment for expressing an opinion (from what my limited researches tell me, if his expressed opinion had been unequivocally separatist he would have been guilty as charged) then free speech and free software alike are in peril.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22article+220%2F8%22

Even so, the fact that we go on debating points of contemporary law and events of history 80 years in the past lets us continue to ignore the immediate and pressing legacy of Turkey's relatively recent atrocities in the mid-1990s, with thousands of "abandoned" villages burned to the ground while 3 million people were removed from their homes and lands, to be dumped in the slums of cities in western Turkey to rot without livelihood or community.

http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/val/sospo/vk/koivune...

Maybe *that* is offtopic.

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

hilmi — 2006-12-01T17:48:54+00:00

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Timeline_of_History...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Ottoman_E...

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

tjc — 2006-12-01T17:30:59+00:00

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/genocidefaq.html

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

hilmi — 2006-12-01T16:33:51+00:00

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire#Society
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire#Culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire#State_and_Rel...

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

tjc — 2006-12-01T15:41:36+00:00

ottoman state used to be the most tolerant state in the world.

The Ottomans killed millions of people during their conquest of Asia Minor and attempted invasion of Europe. But they were real nice after that? I don't think so.

Abdullah Demirbas acquitted of "spreading terrorist propaganda".

hilmi — 2006-12-01T08:40:54+00:00

Court acquits the person but you're still talking about "legal barrier against free speech". Anyway, since we've learned that case wasn't about Linux, I think we should stop the off-topic discussion here. Thanks for informing us about the news btw.

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

rafdz — 2006-12-01T01:47:50+00:00

i think that turkish should return to the old traditions of ottman empire.ottoman state used to be the most tolerant state in the world.it was an example in protecting religious or ethnical minorities.just five centuries ago ottoman state was hosting jews that were being exterminated in spain.dozens of religous or ethnical miniorties were living inside the ottoman state and all their civilian and religious were all respected.unfortunately near the collapse of the ottoman state , turkish nationalism begun to appear and hostility against other miniorties was encouraged .this resulted in massacres against armenians.while it is legitimate to ask turks to recognize the armenians massacres, it seems strange that the countries that are part of the EU don't recognize their own massacres;for example millions of deaths that were caused during occupation of african countries by FRANCE that still maintains that colonization had positive aspects.also while belgium had recognized its responsiblity in RWANDA genocide, FRANCE who had an even worse role than belgium still refuses to admit its responsibility.
also the state of minoritied is not that good even in the EU countries; as it is well known for example in FRANCe the unemployment for people of arab origins is three times the unemployment for natives.even religious rights are not respected; local authorities in FRANCE often deny muslims access to grounds to construct mosques or Cemeteries.on the other hand, it is well known that despite 99% of turkish people are muslims, turkish authorities don't permit to women that are wearing a veil to have a job in public services.strangely EU doesn't talk about this religous discriminiation againt a religous majority(turkish muslims).
in conclusion turkey will NEVER join the EU whatever it does, but it should throw away its nationalism and recognize kurdish cultural and political rights.it should also admit its responsibility in armenians massacres.

Abdullah Demirbas acquitted of "spreading terrorist propaganda".

xoddam — 2006-12-01T01:37:45+00:00

Demirbas has been acquitted. Apparently since the repeal of various laws
suppressing the Kurdish language this charge of "spreading terrorist
propaganda" is the principal legal barrier against free speech, and as
such is being used increasingly often.

http://www.bianet.org/2006/10/01_eng/news85560.htm

The software is mostly irrelevant to the case -- it was a speech
delivered at the European Social Forum promoting a multilingual Turkey
which provoked the charge.

The Turkish government has always had ...issues with the Kurds.

hilmi — 2006-11-30T18:39:26+00:00

Yeah, but the thing is, you had anti-discrimination laws because of an
existing problem in society but the older laws in Turkey I was talking
about was _the_ problem itself (they were made after a military coup and
restricted a lot of civil liberties).

The Turkish government has always had ...issues with the Kurds.

lysse — 2006-11-30T17:45:42+00:00

And as always, it'll take society a good long while to catch up with the laws. We've had anti-discrimination laws in Britain for going on 4 decades now, but it's still bloody difficult to get a job in Bradford with an Asian-sounding name... so we're (or at any rate, I'm) not saying "look how bad Turkey is!", just observing that because Turkey is populated by humans, the ostensible reasons for the investigation may well not correspond with the real ones.

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

tjc — 2006-11-30T15:29:02+00:00

I don't see how such a big nation as Kurds can live without own state - and can't see how they can get one without couple of regional wars in Middle East (as if we need more instability there). Legacy of colonial period. :-(

Trouble between Turks, Kurds, and Armenians predates the post-WWI partition of the Ottoman Empire, so this is more than a legacy of the colonial period.

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

hilmi — 2006-11-30T15:17:25+00:00

Then it's nice to know that EU is better in this respect. OTOH I know that German and Greece citizens with Turkish origin have problems with education in their mother tongue but let's assume it's a very different problem than the problem here. One thing we should be sure is the current laws of Turkey passed the test of EU on fundamental freedoms.

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

fergal — 2006-11-30T15:02:44+00:00

I have no idea what or how he's being investigated for (hence the "" around investigate). I had no great desire to comment on the investigation, I joined the debate purely to point out that there is not "the same situation" in many EU countries.

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

hilmi — 2006-11-30T14:54:41+00:00

Are you _sure_ he's being investigated because they have localized
software? I'm telling you that it's _not illegal_ to localize and use and
distribute Linux in any language you want in Turkey. And we're not talking
about a citizen trying contact with state service in his mother tongue,
we're talking about a state worker. Also the investigation has not ended,
we don't know what the result will be yet. You just can't admit that you
(and some other commenters) don't know enough, but still want to
comment on it since, oh, you care about "us" very much. If you care about
people in "real" middle east do something to stop the civil war in Iraq.

PS: The recent problems in the negotiations are purely political, not
about principle IMO.

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

fergal — 2006-11-30T14:27:31+00:00

I didn't say "all" because I'm not an authority on EU language facts. However, I'll go out on a limb and say that there is no country in the EU that has a 20% minority who cannot use their native language for government business (language, not dialect). I say 20% because the CIA factbook estimates that Kurds are 20% of the Turkish population.

EU countries have active campaigns to promote minority languages and cultures, they do not "investigate" people for localising software. The idea that this is somehow comparable to what happends in EU countries is just wrong. That's not to say Turkey hasn't made a lot of changes, just that it seems there are more that need to be made (as confirmed by the latest happenings in the EU membership negotiations).

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

hilmi — 2006-11-30T14:16:05+00:00

I don't think most of the Turkish citizens would prefer living in another
middle east country because unlike how you think, there are millions
of people living in biggest cities (Istanbul, Bursa etc.) of Turkey who
were previously living on "mountains". I'm sorry but we're not talking
about American Indians here. But thank you for being interested in Turkish
citizens.

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

hilmi — 2006-11-30T14:07:10+00:00

You see "all" and "some" are very different from the point of view I'm
talking about...

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

pmas — 2006-11-30T14:04:32+00:00

Wikipedia says Kurdish population is: Turkey 14-21 million (15% to 30% of the population), Iran 4.8 - 6.6 million, Iraq 4 - 6 million, Syria .9 - 2.8 million. Kurds might be the biggest nation you might never heard of, split between states in the region, minority in each and denied own nation-state. (and I am not kurdish or turkish).

Definition of "freedom fighter" might be "guerrillas after they won freedom", no? :-)

Here in USA, latinos make about 10% of the population (and part are even illegal immigrants). Many commercial and official documents are bilingual (which annoys me a little, because it adds cost to me). In california, you can take driving exams in about 20 languages, including russian and vietnamese (but not in my native language, and i dont want to even if I could). Kurds always lived in Turkish mountains, so they should have right to use own language, no questions asked. And native american indians (first nations as they prefer to be called) always lived here in USA, I know.

Defending freedom to speak means "defending someone else right to say something I might not (and don't have to) agree", not "majority silencing minority" (remind me when I disagree with you :-) ). Hopefully Turks will accept EU values to become part of EU, and recognize rights of Kurdish minority (and christian minority etc). I don't see how such a big nation as Kurds can live without own state - and can't see how they can get one without couple of regional wars in Middle East (as if we need more instability there). Legacy of colonial period. :-(

Having Linux distro in own language (translated by volunteers, no cost to state) is everyone inalienable right, we can agree on this one, right?

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

hilmi — 2006-11-30T14:04:05+00:00

It's not a valid defense because it's not a defense at all. What I'm
trying to do is to emphasize that current laws of Turkey regarding to
ethnic groups comply with EU. I know that the situation in EU is far from
being ideal but you can't expect sudden changes from societies. Current
laws in Turkey are result of a reform process. I think nobody can say that
these reforms were useless. You should give at least ten or twenty years
before demanding more. Give a chance to democracy. And since you care
about human rights of Turkish citizens (thank you, by the way) support EU
membership of Turkey.

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

fergal — 2006-11-30T13:57:44+00:00

Some (all?) EU countries that have several "native" languages allow government business to be conducted in any of those languages. I don't know of any EU contry that has a sizable minority group who's native language cannot be used for government business.

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

arcticwolf — 2006-11-30T12:50:31+00:00

Even assuming that that's true, since when is "others are doing it as well" a valid defense?

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

hilmi — 2006-11-30T09:37:53+00:00

> Legal sanctions against publishing in Kurdish may have been lifted, but
> it is still illegal for citizens to conduct official business with the
> government in any language other than Turkish.

Isn't this the same situation as in many European Union countries?

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

xoddam — 2006-11-30T03:31:09+00:00

Turkish oppression of minorities (with the avowed aim of assimilation,
despite atrocities implying the real goal is elimination) has gone
uninterrupted since the foundation of the modern republic in the 1920s,
and was always fully consistent with the bloodier but less articulate
paranoia of the final decades of the empire that preceded it.

http://www.gomidas.org/forum/af4kurds.htm

Legal sanctions against publishing in Kurdish may have been lifted, but
it is still illegal for citizens to conduct official business with the
government in any language other than Turkish. The oppression of Kurdish
culture may be milder today than it was ten years ago, but it has yet to
end.

As for Kurdish opposition groups being listed as terrorist organisations
by US officialdom -- the definition of a terrorist organisation
explicitly excludes governments and their agencies. If the same criteria
were extended to governments, those of Turkey and the United States
itself (and numerous other countries including my own) would likewise be
on the list of terrorist organisations. You could "investigate" every
government official on those grounds.

Kurdish Ubuntu under investigation in Turkey

Max.Hyre — 2006-11-29T22:10:27+00:00

If the link you mention does talk about an investigation, would you be willing to post a translation here? Babelfish doesn't do Turkish.

Armenians

hilmi — 2006-11-29T19:29:14+00:00

Hah! Founding members? I'd like try what you're smoking. I'm sick of
correcting factual errors surrounding this story btw.

Disinformation about Turkiye

robdinn — 2006-11-29T19:23:31+00:00

:) I like that Ataturk quote, both the original and your re-phrasing!

Armenians

ncm — 2006-11-29T19:22:38+00:00

Perhaps some of the suspicion surrounding the matter is a consequence of Turkey's continuing official denial of the Armenian genocide conducted by founding members of the current regime. The New Yorker published an article recently, which may be read at http://www.newyorker.com/critics/content/articles/061106c... .

(Americans are directly familiar with the genocidal impulse, the U.S. having conducted its own campaign of extermination throughout most of the 19th century. We have been obliged, as a result of our constitutional freedoms, to own up to it, if not actually to make any sort of commensurate restitution. For an easy tour, see "Lies My Teacher Told Me" by James W. Loewen; http://www.amazon.com/Lies-My-Teacher-Told-Everything/dp/... )