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Xiph.org's "Monty" on codecs and patents

By Jake Edge
November 9, 2011

While the talks at the 2011 GStreamer conference mostly focused on the multimedia framework itself—not surprising—there were also some that looked at the wider multimedia ecosystem. One of those was Christopher "Monty" Montgomery's presentation about Xiph.org, and its work to promote free and open source multimedia. Xiph is known for its work on the Ogg container format (and the Vorbis and Theora codecs), but the organization has worked on much more than just those. In addition, Montgomery outlined a new strategy that Xiph is trying out to combat one of the biggest problems in the free multimedia world: codec patents.

[Christopher 'Monty' Montgomery]

Xiph was founded in 1994, originally as a for-profit company (Xiph.com) that was set up to sell codecs. These days, it is a non-profit that consists of various "loosely grouped" codec projects. All of the members are volunteers, and various FOSS companies pay the salaries of some of the members as donations to Xiph.org. For example, Red Hat pays Montgomery's salary to allow him to work on Xiph projects. The organization is "like a coffee shop where skilled codec developers hang out", Montgomery said.

Beyond Ogg, Vorbis, and Theora, there are a number of different projects under the Xiph umbrella, Montgomery said. The cdparanoia compact disc ripper program and library was something he wrote as a student that is now part of Xiph. The Icecast streaming media server is another Xiph project, he said, as are various codecs including Speex, FLAC, the new Opus audio codec, and "a whole bunch of codecs that no one remembers".

Xiph does hold "intellectual property", Montgomery said, and that is one of the reasons it exists. Non-profits have an advantage when it comes to patents because the board gets to decide what happens to the patents if the organization goes out of business. That's different from for-profit companies that go bankrupt, he said, because whoever buys the assets gets the patents free of any promises or other entanglements (at least those that aren't legally binding, like licenses). If the original company promised not to assert some patents (e.g. for free software implementations or to implement a standard), a new owner may not be bound by that promise. A non-profit's board can ensure that any patents end up with a like-minded organization, he said.

Codec news

The biggest Xiph news in the recent past is that Google chose Vorbis as the audio codec for WebM. Montgomery said that he is very happy to see Vorbis included into WebM, but is also glad to see that Google is stepping up to help the cause of free codecs. Xiph has been trying to "hold the line on free codecs", mostly by themselves, he said. He is hopeful that Google picking up some of that will allow Xiph to "go back to what we are actually good at", which is codec development.

Xiph will be continuing to do more codec development because the members enjoy doing so, Montgomery said. Revising the Ogg container format is one thing that's on the plate now. That is not something that Xiph wanted to do while Ogg was part of its effort to hold the free codec line. With the advent of WebM, which uses the Matroska container format, some of the "legitimate complaints" about Ogg can now be addressed.

FLAC is now finished, he said. It is stable and mature with good penetration; it is essentially the standard for lossless audio codecs, and one that Apple has been unable to overturn, Montgomery said. He also noted that there were plans for a Theora 1.2 release that never happened, partly because "everyone went to work on VP8 and Opus". He believes that the release will still happen at some point, but that the pressure is off because of the existence of WebM.

Opus is a new audio codec that incorporates pieces from Xiph's CELT codec and Skype's SILK codec. Opus is designed for streaming voice or other audio over the internet, and is the subject of an IETF Internet-draft. As is usual for such documents, Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) disclosures were made by various parties who believed they had IP (e.g. patents) that are required to implement the proposed standard. Qualcomm has filed such a disclosure for Opus, but, unlike the other disclosing organizations, Qualcomm has not offered its patents under a royalty-free license.

Patent strategy

Montgomery was clear that he wasn't singling out Qualcomm in his talk, because what it has done is "business as usual" in the industry, and Qualcomm is "not in any sense alone" in making these kinds of claims. But it has led Xiph to spend almost as much time on patent strategy as it has in writing code recently. Part of the problem is that these IPR disclosures are immediately assumed to be valid by everyone, whether they know something about patents in that space or not. The presumption is that Qualcomm would never have made the claims without doing a great deal of research.

But Montgomery is not convinced that there is much of substance to Qualcomm's claims. The patent game is essentially a protection racket, he said, and those who are trying to do things royalty-free are messing things up for those who want to collect tolls. "The industry is pissed at Google because they won't play the protection racket game", he said. Qualcomm and others just list some patents that look like they could plausibly read on a royalty-free codec, because it doesn't cost them anything.

That leaves Xiph with few options, though. There is the "thermonuclear option" of going to court and getting a declaratory judgement, but there are some major downsides to pursuing that strategy. It will take a lot of time and money to do so and "no one will use it while the litigation is going on". Montgomery's original inclination was to pursue a declaratory judgement, to "bash in some teeth" and "show that Xiph.org is not to be trifled with". But even if Xiph won, it would only impact those few patents listed by Qualcomm. What is needed is a way to "change 'business as usual'", he said.

Companies "have figured out how to fight 'free'", Montgomery said, by making it illegal. In order to fight back through the courts, there would be an endless series of cases that would have to be won, and each of those wins would not hurt the companies at all. There is a "presumption of credibility" when a patent holder makes a claim of infringement, and the press "plays along with that", he said. But Eben Moglen has pointed out that an accusation of infringement has no legal weight, so there is no real downside to making such a claim.

One way to combat that is to document why the patents don't apply. Basically, Xiph did enough research to show why the Qualcomm patents don't apply to Opus and it is planning to release that information. It is a dangerous strategy at some level because it gives away some of the defense strategy, he said, but Xiph has to try something. By publishing the results of the research, Xiph will be "giving away detailed knowledge of the patents" and may be called to testify if those patents ever do get litigated, but it should counter the belief that the Qualcomm patents cover Opus.

Qualcomm could respond to the research in several different ways. It could ignore it, respond to it, or come back with more patents. It could also formally abandon the claim. If Qualcomm doesn't respond, Montgomery said, that does have some legal weight. One advantage of this approach is that regardless of how Qualcomm responds, Xiph has something concrete (i.e. the research) for the money that it has spent, which is not really the case when taking the declaratory judgement route.

New codecs

Montgomery called Opus a "best in class codec" that Xiph would like to see widely used. Hardware implementations of Opus have been considered, but have not been done yet, he said. Finishing the Opus rollout and "responding to patent claims" have been higher on the list, but they will get to it eventually.

He mentioned two other codecs that Xiph will be working on, including Ghost, which splits audio into two components: strong tones and everything else. Each of the components will be processed separately, much like what the ears do, he said. Both can be represented compactly, but the same transforms don't work on them, so representing them separately may make sense. There was a need to "invent some amount of math for all of this", he said. In addition, Xiph will be working on a new video codec that is being done as part of a "friendly rivalry with On2" (makers of the VP8 codec in WebM).

Montgomery painted a picture of an organization that is doing a great deal to further the cause of free multimedia formats. There are lots of technical and political battles to fight, but Xiph.org seems to be up to the task. It will be interesting to see how Qualcomm responds to the Opus research, and generally how the codec patent landscape plays out over the next few years. The battle is truly just beginning ...

[ I'd like to thank the Linux Foundation for helping with travel expenses so that I could attend the GStreamer conference. ]

Index entries for this article
ConferenceGStreamer Conference/2011


to post comments

thanks for this interview

Posted Nov 9, 2011 21:46 UTC (Wed) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]

I think Monty's doing really great work. I nominated him for FSF's free software award this year.

Xiph.org's "Monty" on codecs and patents

Posted Nov 9, 2011 22:16 UTC (Wed) by rillian (subscriber, #11344) [Link]

Monty does indeed do great work. I'd like to emphasize, though, the part about Xiph.org being an all-volunteer organization. If this is something you're interested in supporting, we could definitely use more contributors.

In addition to our core competency of codec development, tools, evangelism, and support are equally important and often go wanting. Come find us on irc.

Xiph.org's "Monty" on codecs and patents

Posted Nov 10, 2011 1:13 UTC (Thu) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (3 responses)

To toot our (Mozilla's) horn --- most of the Opus work has been done by Xiph people who are being paid to work full-time on Opus by Mozilla. (Hopefully Monty mentioned it, but this article didn't).

Work on the new video codec will likely be the same.

Xiph.org's "Monty" on codecs and patents

Posted Nov 10, 2011 17:44 UTC (Thu) by jayavarman (guest, #19600) [Link] (2 responses)

That's great of you, thanks!

Xiph.org's "Monty" on codecs and patents

Posted Nov 15, 2011 4:44 UTC (Tue) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link] (1 responses)

Can you point to any articles for a dumbie that explain the why of opus as compared to other speech codecs such as speex?

New to the topic, I wonder if this is a next generation thing, or a different target.

Xiph.org's "Monty" on codecs and patents

Posted Nov 15, 2011 4:52 UTC (Tue) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link]

To respond to myself, I foudn this page pretty good in clarifying the opus target goals.

http://opus-codec.org/comparison/

Xiph.org's "Monty" on codecs and patents

Posted Nov 10, 2011 1:31 UTC (Thu) by gmaxwell (guest, #30048) [Link] (10 responses)

With respect to things being "business as usual", it's informative to note that QTL has been peppering many RFCs with identically worded IPR 'disclosures', including decade old standards like SIP (RFC 2543).

The interplay between standards bodies and patent-miners like QTL is a increasingly complicated and hot area.

In many cases a standard depends on low barriers to adoption in order to provide value— especially for software and protocols which have no intrinsic marginal cost to hide licensing fees in— and it's actually pretty easy to find inventors who are willing to give away infrastructure technology simply because it'll enable other business. Which is also why you see groups like Mozilla or Google sponsoring the development of unencumbered web technology— in order to build the next generation of awesome stuff (commercial or otherwise) we need quality common infrastructure and we need it to be as widely available as possible.

The existence of patents themselves aren't really a barrier to this but the patent system and some of its users manage to create significant barriers as collateral damage.

In addition to the innocent patent holder who would just prefer not to give away their inventions, who's inventions must be tediously discovered and avoided, there is also a backdrop of parasites. Things like trolls buying up shaky patents and extorting people who can't afford to litigate or the risk of non-participating patent holders sneaking some trivial but essential patented technique into a standard, or following the procedings and filing applications around the groups' work, and thereby "capturing" the standard and allowing them to extract a rent from all its users. (Both are inequitable conduct which would bar their patent claims… if you can prove it and wait the two technology generations it would take to go through the courts!)

No one seems to know how this tension should be resolved, not the regulators, the standards bodies, or the patent holders. This results in some rather schizophrenic behavior from all involved as they try to act based on their interpretation of what the law is (or will be!).

Earlier this year the FTC recently put out a call for comments on the interaction of patents and standards bodies and Xiph.Org was one of the respondents and offered a number of thoughts on improving the situation.

Xiph.org's "Monty" on codecs and patents

Posted Nov 10, 2011 10:29 UTC (Thu) by k3ninho (subscriber, #50375) [Link] (1 responses)

There are legal protections for false marking (fraudulently claiming your product is covered by a patent, used to notify people that copying the mechanism of a device will infringe a patent) and groundless threats of infringement (where you fraudulently notify a competitor of a patent that you claim they're infringing and, without confirming it, the prospective defendant stops the related business activity).

But I'm not convinced that they apply -- showing that they're not up-to-date with the jockeying and bullying used to gain business advantage. Or maybe these protections aren't in patent law outside the UK.

K3n.

UK laws on false marking

Posted Nov 15, 2011 16:10 UTC (Tue) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]

Got any links about those laws in the UK? I'd like to document this on the swpat.org wiki, not sure what to name the page yet thought.

From what I've heard, many countries have such laws but Germany the only country where they're enforced sufficiently to actually scare Microsoft etc. off from spreading patent FUD about free software. In Germany if you want to insinuate patent infringement, you have to specify the patent and the infringing product.

But I've no links about this, it's just stuff that "everyone" says.

Xiph.org's "Monty" on codecs and patents

Posted Nov 10, 2011 11:18 UTC (Thu) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link] (7 responses)

or following the procedings and filing applications around the groups' work,
If the proceedings are published and date-stamped immediately, wouldn't that make it fairly simple to invalidate the patent? Easier than proving inequitable conduct, anyway.

Xiph.org's "Monty" on codecs and patents

Posted Nov 11, 2011 9:27 UTC (Fri) by mjthayer (guest, #39183) [Link] (6 responses)

> If the proceedings are published and date-stamped immediately, wouldn't that make it fairly simple to invalidate the patent? Easier than proving inequitable conduct, anyway.

Out of interest, can a defendant in a patent case counter-sue for malicious behaviour (or whatever) with any chance of success if there is prior art sufficiently obvious that the original litigant should have known about it if they did their homework? I can imagine that if one patent troll was put out of business in that way it would make a few people stop and think.

Xiph.org's "Monty" on codecs and patents

Posted Nov 11, 2011 10:41 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (4 responses)

the problem is that a patent troll doesn't have much if the way of resources, so even if you win, the people behind the troll move on and pick up another patent, form another troll company and repeat the process.

you may slow down the activity around a particular patent, but you won't hurt the people behind the troll much.

personal accountability

Posted Nov 11, 2011 11:32 UTC (Fri) by pdundas (guest, #15203) [Link] (3 responses)

What you really need (to avoid this limited-liability shuffle) is to establish that the perpetrators are guilty of criminal conduct, rather than a mere civil wrong. Then there is the potential for personal fines or the risk of a custodial sentence, which are harder to avoid by dissolving a company and moving on.

In the UK, it is possible for someone to be barred from acting as director of a company, if their misconduct is sufficiently bad. There may be rules like this in other jurisdictions as well.

Also, if you can show that someone has infringed the rules of their professional body (if they have one), there is a small chance that they may be struck off, expelled, or prevented from practising (at least in theory).

personal accountability

Posted Nov 11, 2011 11:51 UTC (Fri) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link] (2 responses)

But it's not plausible that that'll happen to patent-trolls.

Afterall they can say: "Look, the patent-office, staffed by competent people that aren't us, examined the patent and granted it. Surely, if the patent was *obviously* bad to the point where believing it to be valid and demand that infringers pay is criminal, the fine folks at the patent-office would have denied the patent."

It's really tricky to argue that the patent-office saw the patent as valid, yet that anyone else who *also* sees it as valid, are acting with criminal neglect and/or malevolence.

personal accountability

Posted Nov 11, 2011 12:11 UTC (Fri) by mjthayer (guest, #39183) [Link] (1 responses)

> It's really tricky to argue that the patent-office saw the patent as valid, yet that anyone else who *also* sees it as valid, are acting with criminal neglect and/or malevolence.

How much are the (US) patent office expected to know about the current state of the art? Given the number of applications relative to the number of examiners, they would have to be sufficiently familiar with every field they deal with to have an idea off the top of their head about whether or not it is original if they are to spot prior art without help. Is this really what courts assume about them?

personal accountability

Posted Nov 11, 2011 12:48 UTC (Fri) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link]

They're supposed to be quite competent in the fields where they evalutate patent-applications.

They'd have to be, afterall, because the chief criteria are first that it's novel, and second that it's non-obvious. The definition of the latter vary somewhat by jurisdiction, but for USA it means that:

"the difference between the subject matter sought to be patented and the prior art are such that the subject matter as a whole would have been obvious to a person having ordinary skill in the art to which the subject matter pertains."

In other words, if the technique being patented would have been obvious to a person who has knowledge of formerly used techniques *and* ordinary skill in the subject-area, then that technique is not patentable.

That's what the law says - offcourse in practice it doesn't work like that. It *is* obvious to a person of ordinary skill in developing payment-solutions for webshops that shopping can be made with one click if the required information has been stored previously - and it's equally obvious how to implement this. Nevertheless the patent was granted.

A patent-examiner, in principle, has examined the application and determined that it is novel, non-obvious and useful. It's gonna be really tricky to make it stick that believing his conclusions amounts to criminal neglect.

If you *could* make it stick: "Nobody in their right mind could believe this", then you could conceivably also sue the patent-office for criminal neglect, since they'd be guilty of the same mistake.

That'd be the day -- but I ain't holding my breath.

Xiph.org's "Monty" on codecs and patents

Posted Nov 11, 2011 11:46 UTC (Fri) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link]

Doesn't tend to work.

You're sued by a patent-troll that is single-purpose, produce nothing, and own nothing other than the patent they are suing you over. Thus even if you could manage, after a long and expensive battle, to get them convicted of something or other, it'd not help.

They'd simply fold. A judgement awarding you costs, and also some kinda damages, is worth nothing when the judgement is against a company that holds nothing of value.

How about challenging the patents?

Posted Dec 31, 2011 4:47 UTC (Sat) by emkamau (guest, #76779) [Link]

As a strategy, whenever a company asserts that its patents cover some FOSS technology, why not just challenge the validity of the patents at the patent office?

That should get companies to hesitate to use patents as a weapon against FOSS if they know that the community will go after those patents in anyway possible.

emk


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