Fedora's trademark license agreement
While trademarks are often lumped together with copyrights and patents—under the poorly termed "intellectual property" umbrella—trademarks are quite different. One of those differences is that a trademark must be actively enforced, at least under US law, or the mark holder risks losing it. The Fedora community is currently discussing a license to allow community members to use the Fedora trademarks, while still protecting Red Hat's ability to defend the mark against those who would misuse it. But, requiring a signed license agreement in order for a community web site to use Fedora trademarks—on the site or in the domain name—seems heavy-handed to some.
Christoph Wickert brought up some concerns with the trademark license agreement (TLA) on the fedora-advisory-board mailing list. He was commenting on an earlier revision of the agreement, which has since been updated as a result of the conversation. One of the more controversial aspects of the agreement is that license termination requires that the domain registration be turned over to Red Hat:
The TLA allows either party to terminate the agreement
"for any reason at any time upon thirty (30) days prior notice in
writing to the other party
" in section 3(a), or, in section 3(c),
with no notice in the event of a legal claim against the site. Because of
the domain transfer requirement, Wickert was concerned that it could
lead to domain hijacking:
It should be noted that the TLA does not require that the contents of the website be handed over. Changes to the content may be required if the license is terminated in order to remove the trademarked items, but the contents would still be the property of the web site owner. Wickert's statement to that effect was simply a misunderstanding of the TLA.
Wickert also sees problems in the indemnification clause. By
indemnifying Red Hat against various claims, without any kind
of cap, he is worried that "a person could be bankrupt [for] the
rest of his life even if he didn't damage Red Hat or Fedora in any
way
". In the end, he concludes that the TLA is not something he can
recommend for others to sign, which is "a shame
".
Fedora project leader Paul Frields responded at length to Wickert's concerns, noting:
Another concern was the specific requirements for how the trademarks needed to be used and identified on a site covered by the TLA. Richard Körber complained that those requirements were too restrictive, leaving his site at risk because of minor violations:
Körber concluded that the barrier was just too high: "Frankly, I
would rather drop the domain or close down the entire site, before
I would sign the TLA
". Robert Scheck, who was asked to sign the
original TLA back in March, agreed with
Körber's conclusion. But, Luis Villa noted that, at some level, the existence of
the agreement doesn't change anything:
There is a larger issue as well. Dimitris Glezos worries about the barrier created by requiring a signed agreement:
Glezos argues that any miscreants are not going to sign the agreement
anyway, so requiring the TLA just makes it harder for those who want to
help spread Fedora. Part of the problem is that the TLA is a legal
document, so anyone considering signing it should either be very
comfortable with what it means, or, as was suggested in the thread, consult
a lawyer. That just creates an additional barrier as Wickert points out: "Is Red Hat really expecting their community members to
pay for a lawyer if they want to contribute? That would be
ridiculous.
"
Frields agrees: "If I
thought that this process required people to go get attorneys I'd
agree it's an utter failure.
" The underlying problem, though, is
the need for active enforcement of trademarks. By licensing community
members to use Fedora trademarks, Red Hat can still pursue other,
unlicensed users—some of whom may be using those marks in a way that
is detrimental to the project. Furthermore, engineers trying to solve
legal problems may not be the best approach, Frields said:
As it turns out, those bug reports did reach someone who can help: Pamela Chestek, a trademark attorney who works for Red Hat. She had a lengthy response to the various questions and problems that had been raised in the thread. Chestek started by trying to allay fears that there was a Red Hat agenda behind the TLA:
In addition, she went point by point through the issues that had been
raised. To start with, she explained the reasoning behind clause 3(a),
which allowed Red Hat to terminate the license at will, noting that it
allowed the Fedora community more flexibility should it decide to change
the Fedora name at some point. But, she said, "Because this has been so controversial, though,
we can forgo the flexibility and eliminate this basis for
termination
". The current version of the agreement now reflects
that change.
While Chestek's explanation of the domain transfer requirement still may not sit well with some, it does at least explain why it exists:
On the indemnification clause, Chestek explained that it was there to ensure
fairness for both sides. In any legal action that was brought against the
site for content or behavior that had nothing to do with Red Hat, the site
owner would be responsible, but "if the only reason you are in the
lawsuit is because you are using the Fedora trademark, Red Hat has to pay
the whole amount. That seems fair.
"
She also addressed the issue of
minor problems with how the trademarks were used on the site noting that
the wording requires a "material breach
" of the agreement.
Chestek pointed out that the trademark
guidelines were included by reference in the agreement, "but it would take a flagrant disregard for the Guidelines before
it would be considered a 'material' breach
". Even if that were to
happen, there is a cure provision that would give a site owner seven days
to address a problem that Red Hat notified them about.
Overall, Chestek covered the main legal (as opposed to philosophical) issues that were brought up. She clearly listened to the suggestions and complaints, and made changes where she thought it appropriate. The interaction displayed is very different than the sometimes lofty—and unapproachable—position that lawyers tend to occupy. By engaging the community in its normal communication forums, Chestek is well on the way to heading off some serious unhappiness amongst some in the community.
There may still be those who disagree with the TLA, philosophically or because of the language it contains, but, at the very least, everyone should understand the reasoning behind it. Free software projects using trademarks is controversial; we have seen Mozilla also wrestle with the problem and are likely to see other projects do so in the future. It is in a project's best interest to ensure that something called Fedora (or Firefox) is, indeed, the "real McCoy" and not some malware-afflicted knock-off. How exactly that is done will likely evolve over time. Villa sees some hope in the distance:
Various projects have different ways of approaching the trademark issue. Mozilla has a trademark policy that does not require a signed agreement for using its trademarks on a web site, but does have a license [PDF] for using the trademarks in domain names. That license has much of the same content as the Fedora TLA, including transferring the domain if the license is terminated. Other projects, like Linux, have a different strategy: sublicensing the mark for use in other trademarks, but considering most other uses to be "fair use"—though still subject to proper trademark attribution.
Because trademarks have to be actively, and not selectively, enforced, there needs to be a clear delineation as to what is allowed, and what isn't. Whether it truly requires a signed license agreement is an open question, but clearly Red Hat lawyers think it is safer to do things that way. One alternative is for the mark holder to disallow any use by third parties—a much worse outcome.
While it may be distasteful to have to sign some kind of agreement, it may also be the only workable solution that will satisfy Red Hat, which, after all, does own the trademarks. It will be interesting to see how other projects—particularly those backed by a large company—handle the trademark issue down the road.
Posted Sep 1, 2009 22:39 UTC (Tue)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (10 responses)
so the reasoning that they need to be able to take over domains to protect themselves from someone changing a pro-fedora site into an anti-fedora site isn't reasonable
Posted Sep 2, 2009 0:07 UTC (Wed)
by josh (subscriber, #17465)
[Link] (9 responses)
Posted Sep 2, 2009 0:17 UTC (Wed)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (8 responses)
It would be exceptionally damaging to the Fedora Project if a domain name that was previously used for the betterment of the project fell into the hands of wrongdoers and was used in a way harmful to Fedora. It would even be damaging if people were used to visiting a particular site for Fedora info but that site just wasn't there anymore, because we would have lost touch with community members and they might think less of Fedora because of it. It's just not in the best interest of the Fedora Project to let that happen.
I'll try to re-word my statement
the purpose of trademark isn't to prevent people thinking less of the fedora project, it's to prevent people from claiming to be/represent the fedora project.
as an example, there have been linux news sites that were sold, and the new owners started running news stories critical of linux. trandmark law has not been used to shut those sites down. the statement above seems to indicate that if this happened to a fedora news site, they want to be able to silence it.
Posted Sep 2, 2009 2:29 UTC (Wed)
by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639)
[Link] (3 responses)
The "damage" in the context of trademark policy is about confusion of the mark with creative works and services not created or maintained by the Fedora Project. Reading anything into the word "damage" beyond that is unwarranted and inappropriate. If someone wants to write pages and pages in a scathing article about the deficiencies in the Fedora Project..and can use the trademarks in a non-confusing way in the article... they'll still be able to.
-jef
Posted Sep 2, 2009 8:15 UTC (Wed)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (2 responses)
having a website that formerly hosted news about the real fedora distro go offline because the person who had been writing it moved to a different distro should not be, but this is explictly called out as one of the things they want to be able to defend against by taking over someone else's domain.
if they consider a new site going dark to be 'damaging' to the project, I don't see how they could consider a news site that started bashing them to not be.
Posted Sep 2, 2009 9:03 UTC (Wed)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 2, 2009 19:58 UTC (Wed)
by dmarti (subscriber, #11625)
[Link]
Posted Sep 4, 2009 5:38 UTC (Fri)
by njs (subscriber, #40338)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Sep 4, 2009 20:36 UTC (Fri)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link]
Posted Sep 4, 2009 21:50 UTC (Fri)
by giraffedata (guest, #1954)
[Link] (1 responses)
No, preventing people from taking advantage of the trademark holder's reputation is not a classic legitimate use of trademark. It's about what the customer, and incidentally the trademark holder, loses, not what the user of the trademark gains.
A Fedora hater would want to take over a formerly pro-Fedora domain name in order to gain an audience of people to be turned against Fedora. Trademark doesn't care about that. If it's perfectly clear to visitors to the site that it is not a product of the Fedora project, trademark has nothing to say about it.
The classic trademark application is where you sell your inferior cola under the name Coca Cola and thereby cheat the drinker. Incidentally, you also deprive the Coca Cola corporation of profit, so Coca Cola would take the lead in stopping you.
Posted Sep 5, 2009 0:33 UTC (Sat)
by njs (subscriber, #40338)
[Link]
Sure, but when trademark has nothing to say, then the trademark license agreement is irrelevant.
Posted Sep 2, 2009 15:24 UTC (Wed)
by Baylink (guest, #755)
[Link] (1 responses)
Wickert has read his Clausewitz; Red Hat hasn't.
Red Hat is a large corporation with staff counsel; it's not unreasonable for people to whom it might want to apply some agreement to close-read it, and construe it against Red Hat, and it's sort of disingenuous on RH's part to act as if it's an unthinkable thing for someone like Wickert to do.
It's just prudent.
In any event, nearly all uses of "Fedora" in these contexts are either identifying or editorial, and aren't subject to trademark control, anyway. (IANAL)
Posted Sep 2, 2009 22:12 UTC (Wed)
by fmarier (subscriber, #19894)
[Link]
Posted Sep 3, 2009 8:28 UTC (Thu)
by job (guest, #670)
[Link] (1 responses)
No project that's still alive has the problem that their trademark is too weak. If someone publishes a trojanized bash or gnupg, the route to take against that simply isn't trademark law. And supporting news sites and other community domain names come and go all the time. Nobody thinks less of Debian just because some old news site got picked up to advertise things related to bodily functions instead.
Of course all lawyers will emphasize the importance of protecting one's trademark, while I'm sure it's all technically correct it's also in their own interest. There are thousands of real problems to solve for a Linux distribution but this just isn't on the top thousand, it's premature micro optimization for a non-relevant use case.
Any time you are required to give up certain rights to participate in a community, that's a sure sign it's a community you don't want to be part of. Any time you require your users to climb hurdles to get the privilege of helping you, your potential user base decreases.
Posted Sep 3, 2009 12:19 UTC (Thu)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link]
Linux is a stronger brand. It isn't clear that Linux as a trademark can be effectively enforced anymore however.
"Any time you are required to give up certain rights to participate in a community, that's a sure sign it's a community you don't want to be part of."
And yet, I can't think of single community where you don't give up atleast some rights. Generalizations will only take you so far.
trademark is not supposed to be used to suppress criticism
trademark is not supposed to be used to suppress criticism
trademark is not supposed to be used to suppress criticism
trademark is not supposed to be used to suppress criticism
To make the suggestion that dissenting opinions would be stifled via trademark policy is moderately insulting. There's no way that would hold up in court. And besides, there would be absolute hell to pay in terms of a contributor backlash inside the Fedora project if that sort of censorship was ever attempted.
trademark is not supposed to be used to suppress criticism
trademark is not supposed to be used to suppress criticism
Someone at Red Hat would have to set up a cron job to run Rick Moen's domain-check script, then take action if a Fedora-related site is about to lose its domain.
Watching the domains
trademark is not supposed to be used to suppress criticism
trademark is not supposed to be used to suppress criticism
trademark is not supposed to be used to suppress criticism
The only reason I can see is that they wanted to take advantage of the association of that domain with the official fedora project, and preventing that seems like a classic legitimate use of trademark.
trademark is not supposed to be used to suppress criticism
Fedora's trademark license agreement
Fedora's trademark license agreement
Trademarks
Trademarks