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Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Vnunet.com talks with Wilhelm Hoegner, Munich's City IT chief, about the city's switch to open-source software. "The key aspect was the ability to control the release policy ourselves; in other words to free ourselves from reliance on the product cycles of a small number of software companies. Another important point, of course, was licence costs, and security also plays an important part. We are switching directly from Windows NT to Linux, since NT, which is non-secure, was followed by a number of systems from the same manufacturer, which were also open to attack."
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Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 24, 2004 18:08 UTC (Thu) by Baylink (subscriber, #755) [Link]

> " ... Windows NT, which is non-secure ... "

What an absolutely delightful quote.

Quick; everyone: send this guy a pretty picture postcard from your hometown, thanking his for
saying that. :-)

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 24, 2004 23:52 UTC (Thu) by penguinwarrior (guest, #20672) [Link]

if you send him $5 (marks?) he'll like you more... ):-)

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 25, 2004 6:29 UTC (Fri) by bsch (subscriber, #4349) [Link]

> send him $5 (marks?)

The Deutsche Mark is no more. Well, if you have some left and if he is a collector ... Otherwise, Germany now uses the Euro.

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 25, 2004 4:49 UTC (Fri) by douglane (guest, #22573) [Link]

Good for Munich! I am a little disappointed that they could not get the Building Department on board because of the drafting program shortage in Gnu/Linux. AutoCad is the de facto standard and they are not at all interested in porting. Using wine, win4lin, or dual boot would be a crutch and the Gnu/Linux open source community really needs a viable Autocad alternative.

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 25, 2004 8:03 UTC (Fri) by kay (subscriber, #1362) [Link]

port Autocad to Linux ...

Kay

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 25, 2004 11:41 UTC (Fri) by frankie (subscriber, #13593) [Link]

In the old days there were a Solaris port, but it has been abandoned since ages due to little interest by customers. I'm afraid Autodesk (or Adobe) will not port any product to Linux until customers will ask seriuosly for that.
And unfortunately the use of Linux on workstations is low. Add pressures by Microsoft to third party vendor, and I see very few possibilities about.

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 25, 2004 12:06 UTC (Fri) by douglane (guest, #22573) [Link]

I would like to see a good Win-native alternative to Autocad ported to Linux -- Turbocad (very inexpensive but powerfull). They would have a lock on Linux due to their very capable import/export features.

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 25, 2004 12:29 UTC (Fri) by busterb (subscriber, #560) [Link]

According to this article, Solidworks might be first.
In the CAD arena, several established software makers are already offering Linux versions, and others have announced that they are under consideration or development. They include Pro/Engineer and SolidWorks. SolidWorks have also ported Macsyma maths software and a 3D Java viewer to Linux. Spatial Technology, developer of the widely used ACIS solid-modeling kernel, has announced a release of the kernel written for Linux, which will facilitate several CAD systems moving onto Linux. Bentley has a Linux version of MicroStation under development.

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 25, 2004 12:34 UTC (Fri) by fjf33 (subscriber, #5768) [Link]

Actually PTC ProEngineer has had a Linux version of Wildfire (their latest CAD program) for about a year or more. The problem is that SolidWorks and ProE are 3D CAD more for Mechanical/Aerospace engineering than Civil/Architectural work. There is where AutoCAD still reigns. However it should be easier to do a 2D CAD program than a 3D one. In particular a parametric 3D program.

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 25, 2004 12:58 UTC (Fri) by douglane (guest, #22573) [Link]

That's ancient history, I think. Besides, these are big ticket, parametric cad programs.

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 25, 2004 13:31 UTC (Fri) by cpm (subscriber, #3554) [Link]

I don't think that AutoDesk will port to Linux because amongst other things, John Walker (who I believe has had a bit of influence over the corporate philosophy and culture of AutoDesk)-from his musings- seems hostile towards Linux in general and the GPL in particular. AutoDesk is completely married to Microsoft, and the relationship has been a good one for both.

If it weren't for AutoDesk, my network would be MS free.

As for Adobe, I think there is pressure to keep them away from Linux. They began a Linux strategy, and then backed away quickly. Perhaps it made certain partners upset. Hard to say.

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 25, 2004 16:30 UTC (Fri) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link]

Ah, I beg to differ quite strongly re: Mr. Walker's views on Microsoft (at least using the following evidence from his Hacker's Diet book that he wrote a while back. (It's a pretty good system, BTW. Worked for me...) :-)

This quote is from the page about the Excel spreadsheet tools that he created to use with the diet book. It seems to indicate that a 'complete marriage to Microsoft' would seem to be a bit of an overstatement...

Why So Many Versions?

The Hacker's Diet spreadsheets were originally developed in 1990 with Excel 2.1 on Microsoft Windows 3.1. Some of the components in the package use Excel macros which are, for the most part, relatively simple and straightforward compared to those found in a typical corporate Excel application. Nonetheless, thanks to Microsoft's practice of "strategic incompatibility" and utter contempt for the investment made by their customers, these rudimentary macros have required specific modifications for every single new version of Excel in the decade since they were originally released, and things have gotten worse, not better, since Microsoft introduced the new Visual Basic programming language for Excel (itself a cesspool of release-to-release incompatibility), due to what appears to be a deliberate Microsoft strategy to destabilise the original macro language in order to force customers onto the new one (at a cost to Microsoft corporate clients I estimate on the order of a hundreds of millions of U.S. dollars).

The upshot of this is that while in a reasonable world spreadsheets and macros would be capital, created once and then used thereafter with no additional attention, in the world of Microsoft, software developed for their platforms is a "wasting asset" more like a stock option with an strike date about 18 months from the time it was developed. By then Billy Boy or one of his Kode Kiddies will have changed their mind about something (or simply introduced a gratuitous incompatibility, whether for strategic reasons, due to sloppiness or incompetence, or just for the Hell of it) which pulls the carpet out from under the application and its users when they "upgrade" to a more recent Microsoft release (which is increasingly involuntary as more and more new computers are sold pre-loaded with the latest releases of Microsoft operating systems and applications, offering the customer no option but to pay the "Microsoft Tax" bundled in the cost of the system).

And here's another quote from the download page of the Palm version of his diet software:

The central component of the computer tools which accompany The Hacker's Diet is the Eat Watch--the weight monitoring, charting, and trend analysis software originally developed as Microsoft Excel macros in 1990. By the standards of the time, it was pretty cool to be able to enter weight and exercise log entries into a spreadsheet which automatically calculated the daily trend and variance, and then press a button and have a pretty, full-colour chart pop up complete with weight trend and calorie balance analysis.

But that was then, and this is now (2000). Never did I imagine when writing the original macros that Microsoft's unique blend of incompetence and contempt for their customers' investment would cause those macros (like virtually every other Excel macro package all around the world, except for the most trivial) to break on almost every successive release of Excel, all along the tedious, tear-drenched trudge from Excel 2.1 to Excel 2000; that ever steepening spiral into the foul pit of intellectual corruption from the days of "386 Enhanced Mode" to the era of the talking paper clip.

But I digress. Due to numerous experiences with shoddy quality and incessant incompatibilities in Microsoft products, in 1996 I abandoned all new software development for that platform. But the computer tools for The Hacker's Diet remained wedded to Excel, a proprietary platform which history had proven notoriously shaky and likely to continue to degrade since Microsoft abandoned the macro language in which I developed the tools in favour of an even worse one based on Visual Basic. Today, Microsoft provides little or no documentation of or support for the original macro language in current releases of Excel.

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 28, 2004 12:01 UTC (Mon) by cpm (subscriber, #3554) [Link]

That's pretty hopeful. But it doesn't change the nature of the marriage between autodesk and microsoft. I'm not aware of the nature of Mr. Walkers views of Microsoft, but his views of Linux and the GPL play out pretty well here, http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/rat-butterfly/

I have a great deal of admiration for Mr. Walker, but I don't agree with him very much.

I was an autocad pilot from 1989 through 1993. Once the software went to windows, I pretty much lost interest in it altogether. I didn't like windows then, and I've not liked it much since.

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 28, 2004 15:06 UTC (Mon) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link]

Well, his little tale is definitely a fable... :-) He seems to be reacting to a caricature of Richard Stallman, with views even more extreme than RMS himself. And if you don't like how Richard operates, it is possible to still write software for Linux. As the rat said in the fable, 'whatever it takes', right? Port your software to Linux, make your users happy, earn a living, etc. So it seems Mr. Walker is laboring under an unfortunate misunderstanding...

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 28, 2004 7:44 UTC (Mon) by Bjorn (guest, #1520) [Link]

In the old days there were a Solaris port, but it has been abandoned since ages due to little interest by customers.

Actually in the old days AutoDesk developed AutoCAD on SUN machines and ported to DOS. At some point though they switched to developing on NT and dropped support for all operating systems but NT and DOS.

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 25, 2004 16:44 UTC (Fri) by spuhler (guest, #22593) [Link]

There is Varicad a 2d/3d CAD program. They may adapt it to civil
engineering? It runs on Linux and MS. Would be a good candidate for a
transition.
Tom

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 25, 2004 19:15 UTC (Fri) by douglane (guest, #22573) [Link]

Yeah, Varicad looks pretty good but the download for the trial program is
so crippled that it is hard to see if it is any good. There are several
German cad packages that look good, too, and they are for architect and
civil engineer.

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 28, 2004 12:07 UTC (Mon) by cpm (subscriber, #3554) [Link]

There is also qcad. I like it. Basic, simple, and I've been able to get some real work done with it.

http://www.ribbonsoft.com/qcad.html

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 25, 2004 19:25 UTC (Fri) by douglane (guest, #22573) [Link]

And another thing (I'm on a roll) we have just renewed our license with
the AIA and received the new program for their construction documents and
contracts program and they require MS Word. We did not require word
before, so now, to use the new program we have to buy MS Word (and a MS
machine) and we can't use our old contracts and documents anymore. Is
there a restraint in trade lawsuit here?

Munich opens gates to Linux (vnunet)

Posted Jun 29, 2004 11:55 UTC (Tue) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]

Won't OpenOffice.org do? Do they know what you're using, or do you just need to send stuff as .doc's?

Cheers,
Wol

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