Carthago delenda est sed Apache non Carthago est [LWN.net]

Carthago delenda est sed Apache non Carthago est

Posted Jun 17, 2004 12:43 UTC (Thu) by angdraug (subscriber, #7487)
In reply to: Carthago delenda est sed Apache non Carthago est by crankysysadmin
Parent article: A look at SpamAssassin 3.0

I'm not as idealistic as you

There, now you've put another false label on me, even if less negative than "dogma". Please, don't do that again.

I think getting rid of all non-GPL licenses would, at this stage of the OSS struggle, result in less free software, FSVO 'free'.

1. Don't put words in my mouth. I am talking GPL-incompatible here, not non-GPL. Can you see the difference?

2. Getting rid of GPL-incompatible licenses would result in one strong community, instead of the fracturing set of smaller communities sharing nothing but name, and confused even about that (OSS vs. free software).

However, I think the DFSG are great, and I think the GPL is great.

Now that intro brought up my spin-doctor alarm. Sorry, but I'm too used to hearing this exact phrase from folks who don't really mean it...

I think they incorporate an ideal (...) with which not everyone is fully comfortable (that's where the "dogma" would come in).

There, you did it again, now using both "idealism" and "dogma" labels in one sentence. Stick a label, rinse, repeat?

Of course there are people who are not comfortable with the idea of freedom. Otherwise, you wouldn't have to fight for it, right?

(Log in to post comments)

Carthago delenda est sed Apache non Carthago est

Posted Jun 17, 2004 14:07 UTC (Thu) by crankysysadmin (guest, #19449) [Link]

Whatever. No offense meant, I don't want to get in a flame war with you, nor did I intentionally put words in your mouth with my "I" statement. However, you're seemingly deliberately ignoring my point, which merits one more response from me. Let me see if this formulation pleases you:

I think getting rid of all GPL-incompatible licenses would, at this stage of the OSS struggle, result in less open source software, FSVO 'open'.

So in other words, my priority is on getting people who write code to make it somewhat free (in the sense of "open", not in the sense of "cost"), even if it isn't as free as the GPL. In that sense I feel I am also trying to increase freedom, because I currently see the alternative as being more closed-source, proprietary software. Obviously you are welcome to an opposing viewpoint.

Carthago delenda est sed Apache non Carthago est

Posted Jun 17, 2004 16:01 UTC (Thu) by angdraug (subscriber, #7487) [Link]

Ok, ok, apologies accepted.

But you're wrong in saying that I deliberately ignored your point: I've dedicated whole point "2. (...)" above to addressing it. Now that we have finished with "you said I said" games (I hope), lets get to the core of the matter.

So in other words, my priority is on getting people who write code to make it somewhat free (in the sense of "open", not in the sense of "cost"), even if it isn't as free as the GPL. In that sense I feel I am also trying to increase freedom, because I currently see the alternative as being more closed-source, proprietary software.

My experience proves otherwise. Once people decided to release the source under whatever license, they are already over the fence, in the sense that they're not very likely to back away from releasing it at all. If they are told (with polite and convincing arguments) that the license they've chosen is wrong, they are much more likely to release under a better license than not to release at all. OTOH, once considerable amount of time has passed since the release, it becomes much more difficult to change the license to a better one.

Thus, if the final goal is to get as much software as possible under as free licenses as possible, being careful about choosing a right license from the very start is more effective than the "schmicence" attitude.

And finally, please allow me to brainwash you about the words you use. After all, Orwell was right and our words do infuence our thoughts. "Open" is a wrong word as it implies that you can look, but not necessarily can touch (as in patents which are open just fine). Freedom should also include the right to touch and even to take it and walk away with it.