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The Open Sourcing of Ingres (IT-Director)
IT-Director is running a Robin Bloor column on the open-sourcing of Ingres by Computer Associates.
"CA is also partnering with Zope, a popular Open Source content management solution. In effect this provides the world with an Ingres-based Open Source content management offering. On top of this CA is partnering with Plone (an Open Source Document Management solution) to provide an Ingres-based document management solution. The picture that is emerging then, is not of CA simply throwing Ingres into the Open Source pool, but using Ingres to assist mature and well respected Open Source initiatives, that could happily make use of an industrial strength database."
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The Open Sourcing of Ingres (IT-Director) Posted Jun 4, 2004 16:11 UTC (Fri) by Odysseus (guest, #11518) [Link] I used QUEL years ago & on that job I abandoned SQL completely. I was personally disappointed when the pgSQL crowd decided to drop QUEL.QUEL is truly relational (SQL IS NOT RELATIONAL) (!!!) & much, MUCH better than SQL. Here's hoping the free availability of a better alternative makes more people wake up and smell the steaming pile of poop that SQL is. For criticism of SQL and current industry database practice see www.dbdebunk.com It's an eye opener. Too bad Sybase did not do this, choosing to make money from support rather than sales. If they had MS's ripoff would be producing ZERO revenue within a year.
The Open Sourcing of Ingres (IT-Director) Posted Jun 4, 2004 23:47 UTC (Fri) by uriel (guest, #20754) [Link] I agree completely.This book is also a very good criticism of current database practices: Practical Issues in Database Management: A Reference for the Thinking Practitioner It also gives you advice in how to overcome the (sad) limitations of current database systems. But it wont help much if you are using something as pathetic as MySQL, if you use MySQL better don't read it, or you might end up crying. Still, while I was reading it I was wishing the PostgreSQL developers payed more attention to all the advice it gives. SQL is truly awful. This book made me realize that I don't really hate relational databases, what I hate is _SQL_.
The Open Sourcing of Ingres (IT-Director) Posted Jun 5, 2004 17:36 UTC (Sat) by Odysseus (guest, #11518) [Link] Ironic that we're discussing Fabian Pascal in relation to a Bloor article.I remember reading Date/Pascal articles that SAVAGED some of Bloor's articles denigrating relational[*] databases in favor of object databases. [*] Actually Bloor was denigrating SQL based databases but since Bloor doesn't know the difference between relational databases & SQL-databases, he CLAIMED he was denigrating relational databases.
The Open Sourcing of Ingres (IT-Director) Posted Jun 7, 2004 15:55 UTC (Mon) by scotdb (guest, #3170) [Link] Isn't it amazing how anything which has proved useful / successful always has its critics ?I give you that SQL may not be perfect, but then what practical technology in use today is ? Maybe we should all return to using hierarchical databases (IMS) ? Or maybe IMS doesn't conform to the hierarchical database model either <G> !! Over the years I've been pointed on a number of occasions to dbdebunk.com, but the site has always left me cold. It seems to have been written by folks who have a very large chip on their shoulders. Either that or its a case of ideology at any cost (a sort of database fundamentalism ?) Anyway, better get back to working with my "non-relational" database (in this case DB2 for Linux), which just happens to be what pays the bills.
The Open Sourcing of Ingres (IT-Director) Posted Jun 7, 2004 16:38 UTC (Mon) by Odysseus (guest, #11518) [Link] Isn't it amazing how anything which has proved useful / successful always has its critics ?>> Even more amazing that things that are fundamentally flawed have their boosters. >> So remind me, why are you using Linux? Why not Windows? Why did ANYONE switch to Linux from the beginning? After all, Windows is not perfect, but it's practical technology ... why ask for something better? >> >> People pointing out to you the deficiencies of your tools, and the emperor's lack of clothes, and suggesting better ways of doing things leave you cold? People pointing out how normal industry practice could damage your data & suggesting workarounds to make yourself safe leave you cold? You go on and on about dbdebunk and yet I read not one substantive criticism of any statement made on that site. NOT ONE. >> Why would the vendor do that? Because relational buys you a lot of benefits & the vendor wants to latch onto that, even if they have to lie to do it. So yeah, you Better get back to working with your mis-labeled, mis-advertised product, and ask for nothing better. Who knows, maybe getting something better would leave you feeling cold ...
The Open Sourcing of Ingres (IT-Director) Posted Jun 14, 2004 20:06 UTC (Mon) by Odysseus (guest, #11518) [Link] I was wishing the PostgreSQL developers payed more attention to all the advice it gives.>>> I've read comments on the PG mailing lists indicating a few of the developers know of the issues Pascal & Date raise. How widespread this understanding is AND ESPECIALLY How much can be done when PG is locked into SQL are open questions.
The Open Sourcing of Ingres (IT-Director) Posted Jun 15, 2004 19:11 UTC (Tue) by mly (guest, #2171) [Link] I'm not sure why the issue of QUEL vs SQL pops up now.Regardless of merits, QUEL lost the battle many years I imagine Ingres still has QUEL support, but I think that But maybe I'm wrong... We'll see.
The Open Sourcing of Ingres (IT-Director) Posted Jun 27, 2004 17:07 UTC (Sun) by Odysseus (guest, #11518) [Link] I'm not sure why this argument has come up twice, from a community that reveres finding better solutions, regardless of popularity."regardless of merits?" So, why do you use Linux, again? After all, regardless of merits, *IX systems are the vast minority of systems out there. Where would we be if Linus had used that reasoning in 1991? By your line of reasoning we would all be programming in VB right now.
The Open Sourcing of Ingres (IT-Director) Posted Apr 4, 2005 23:21 UTC (Mon) by zotz (guest, #26117) [Link] "Here's hoping the free availability of a better alternative makes more people wake up and smell the steaming pile of poop that SQL is."
Do you know of any free QUEL implementations to play with? Any that are being actively improved/worked on?
all the best,
drew
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