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A grumpy user's browser review

An LWN editor's job requires spending vast amounts of time each day operating a web browser. As a result, we have become very sensitive to browser features which make it easier to get things done - or which get in the way. In an effort to find a better tool for the creation of LWN, your editor decided to spend some serious time working with some of the current crop of web browsers. With luck, it was hoped, the least evil browser could be identified and used on into the future.

One note before we get going: Konqueror is not included in this review. Konqueror is a highly capable browser (and file manager) which is worthy of consideration, but it suffers from one fatal flaw (from your editor's point of view): it will not run without the whole KDE infrastructure running behind it. Your editor is not currently a KDE user, so Konqueror is not an available option.

This effort was motivated at this time in particular by the announcement of the Mozilla Firefox 0.8 release. Firefox is the new name for the browser formerly known as "Firebird." Those who are curious about the name change can peruse the "brand name FAQ" and this weblog entry describing the lengthy process involved in changing the browser's name.

We'll start, however, with Galeon, which has been your editor's browser of choice for some time. Galeon has been slowly falling out of favor, however, since the 1.3 branch was begun and all the work that went into making 1.2.x a top-quality power user's browser was thrown away. Galeon 1.3 suffers from the GNOME "don't confuse those poor, helpless users by letting them configure things" disease - though it is possible to have more control if you know the proper secret gconf registry codes. Even so, some nice 1.2 features, such as the ability to configure the toolbar for maximal functionality in minimal space or remembering the preferred zoom level for each site, are still missing.

The real problem with 1.3.x, however, is the seemingly endless series of Weird Bugs. The bookmark editor has not worked well for a long time, and rearranging bookmarks can result in strange little windows with URLs in them floating across the screen long after the user has moved on to other tasks. The "type ahead find death grip" has caused your editor to put his fist through more than one monitor while attempting to fill in web forms. The browser grows without limit; it usually has to be killed and restarted around when it hits 200MB or the entire system slows to a crawl.

Despite all these complaints, Galeon has served well for a long time, and will be a hard browser to beat.

The Mozilla Firefox 0.8 release is easy to download in binary form and install. The initial impression it made was not the greatest, however; Firefox appears to be unable to find or use the beautiful Bitstream Vera antialiased fonts that Galeon uses so happily. The result is an ugly, hard-to-read screen which is reminiscent of the old Netscape 4.x days. Firefox behaves this way on Debian sid and Red Hat Linux 9 systems. Comments from others suggest that this is a problem that can be overcome, but it is clearly not a straightforward thing to do. Update: as noted by a few commenters, the fix is to install the "gtk2+xft" version; it can be found on the FTP site but is not mentioned on the download page.

The browser also makes an immediate impression, however, for its speed. Even when freshly started, current versions of Galeon are not so zippy on your editor's desktop. Firefox seems robust; a day's worth of serious browsing failed to turn up a single site which crashed the browser or which did not render properly. Most of the features one has come to expect in a modern browser (tabbed browsing, search fields, printing, bookmark editing, password management, javascript, history tracking with search, etc.) work well. Firefox gives a relatively high degree of control over things like popup windows and active content; there is a list of actions which can be allowed or denied to Javascript scripts, for example. Firefox has far more theme support than the other browsers reviewed.

The browser's process size appeared to stabilize at "only" 98MB; huge by any rational standards, but Galeon has a hard time putting up its splash screen with that much space. Firefox appears to have a solid base at this point.

That said, some things are missing. At the top of your editor's list is the ability to control image animation. One forgets how annoying the web can be with things bouncing around the screen; Firefox provides no evident way to turn animation off. The download manager is a little strange; it provides no way to place a file in an arbitrary directory at download time. Instead, you have to choose a single download directory via the configuration dialogs and everything will go there. By default, downloaded files go into the home directory. Control-T creates a new tab, as one might expect, but it comes up blank; Galeon's practice of bringing up the home page in new tabs seems preferable.

All of the above items would appear to be fixable with a (relatively) small amount of effort. Firefox may not be ready to displace Galeon from your editor's desktop, but it's not far from that point either.

Once this process was begun, it seemed logical to give Epiphany 1.07 a spin as well. Epiphany makes a first good impression; the toolbars are clean and don't take up a whole lot of space, and antialiased fonts are the rule. It's a nice-looking browser. Epiphany, like the other browsers, also offers the usual set of expected features.

Epiphany's configuration dialog is the most sparse of the three browsers reviewed here. It does provide control over the toolbars, which is nice, but many other things are missing - including that all-important control over image animation. There also does not appear to be any sort of explicit control over popup windows. Another obnoxious little limitation with Epiphany is that it does not allow a URL to be "pasted" into the browser with the middle mouse button - a feature supported by both Galeon and Firefox. Epiphany 1.07 suffers from the "typeahead find death grip." Given that many users probably do not use the typeahead find feature at all, it sure would be nice to have an (obvious) way to turn it off.

Epiphany also manifests some strange behavior when the user types a URL into the location field and there are multiple windows open: completion windows show up on each browser window and must be chased away individually. Epiphany grew to over 100MB during a day of testing, and appeared to be set to continue to inflate. It bloats far more slowly than Galeon, however. Beyond that, however, Epiphany seems stable; your editor could not make it crash.

Epiphany is closer to Galeon than Firefox in rendering speed: generally good enough, but not strikingly fast. To try to get a handle on things, we ran an ultra-scientific test: see how long each browser takes to render a local copy of this page, which consists of a huge table listing vulnerabilities and alerts from 2003. Epiphany and Galeon consistently required about 6.5 seconds to present the page; Firefox can do it in 5.4.

Perhaps the most striking realization from this whole exercise, however, is just how similar these three browsers are. The fact that they all use the Gecko rendering engine will certainly create a degree of uniformity, but the resemblance goes beyond that. Your editor often had to look carefully to see which browser was in use at any given time. To a great extent, they can be substituted for each other; the differences between them come down to little nits and pet peeves.

One might well wonder why three groups of people are working so hard to build complex applications which resemble each other so strongly. If we are going to have multiple Gecko-based browsers, it would make some sense for them to differentiate themselves somehow. Why can't one of them be the power user's browser, providing full control over every aspect of its operation without fear of confusing the user with too many configuration options? Couldn't one of them be an experimental browser, trying out interesting new ways of presenting the web to users? We could dedicate one project to each of those goals, and still have one trying to do the Same Old Stuff in the best way possible. As it is, each of the three browsers reviewed is an advanced and capable application, but it is increasingly hard to find a reason to choose one over another.


(Log in to post comments)

Extensions make Firefox

Posted Feb 11, 2004 18:17 UTC (Wed) by pj (subscriber, #4506) [Link]

I've been using Firefox since 0.6 or so and quickly learned that as the 'clothes make the man', the extensions make the (Firefox) browser. Finding the right set of extensions to make it just the way you like it has replaced paging through endless configuration options, and IMHO it's an improvement. The default url of new tabs can be configured via extensions, as can more substantial improvements like the addition of whole new features: RSS readers, browser ID masquerading, quickbutton access, etc etc. To an extent, reviewing Firefox without looking at the extensions available is analagous to reviewing apache without looking at the modules available.

Privoxy

Posted Feb 11, 2004 19:40 UTC (Wed) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link]

Another thing that makes the world of difference is Privoxy. Once you start filtering out flash ads, Firefox becomes much more responsive. Now you can open dozens of tabs without causing heavy CPU utilization. Privoxy is part of Debian and Fedora, just use apt-get or yum.

Privoxy

Posted Feb 13, 2004 5:21 UTC (Fri) by Duncan (guest, #6647) [Link]

No kidding! Privoxy has become almost indispensable to my browsing. I
have quite a list of personal filters added.

Among other things, I rather dislike the normal dark text on light background
that so many pages have, and long ago set up my browser preferences to
white text on a black background, while still allowing individual pages to
control both so I got other colors if that's what the page author created.

Unfortunately, all to many pages break a cardinal page design rule: If you set
one of text color or background, set the other one as well, because you can't
just assume that the browser won't otherwise render black text (as you set) on
a black background (based on browser prefs because you did NOT set it), or
something similar, making everything invisible!

Thus, a good portion of my own privoxy filters have to do with ensuring that
anything to light as a background gets reset to dark/black, while anything to
dark as a text/foreground gets reset to light/white, all the while attempting to
leave intermediate colors alone, and not deviate TO much, save for ensuring
good contrast and an overall light on dark theme, from what the page author
intended.

BTW, I understand why Konqueror wasn't included in the evaluation, but
that's what I run, as I DO run KDE as my desktop of choice, in no small part
BECAUSE of the stupid GTK/Gnome anti-power-user anti-config attitude.
I've posted b4 and will again.. when Gnome/GTK has an control applet
available to adjust individual interface colors, THEN I might consider it a
serious desktop environment. Even MSWormOS has THAT, as does KDE
(with kcmshell colors), but Gnome forces the user to either change the entire
thing with a theme, or go to the text config files, the latter of which might be
an acceptable method for configuring the Linux core, but is NOT acceptable
for configuring what IS after all, SUPPOSED to be a visually oriented and
colored GUI interface. Gray on pastel is simply to boring and "sick" looking,
for my tastes, and I have yet to see something with decent BOLD color
choices that I'm happy with either, so individual color choices are the only
way to get something I can be reasonably happy working on.

Duncan

No need for Privoxy

Posted Feb 24, 2004 12:06 UTC (Tue) by ressu (subscriber, #14615) [Link]

i would recommend checking out http://www.gozer.org/mozilla/ad_blocking/ which offers plain and simple ad-blocking, without any external application or extension.

This is not something the most people know of, maybe it's a good thing.. that way the people making the ads don't care about it.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 18:19 UTC (Wed) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link]

You can have the download manager ask you where to put files; it's in the preferences window under Downloads. Choose "Ask me where to save every file", and you'll be asked each time.

As for the animation, you can enter "about:config" in the browser to get all the configuration settings, and then change the "image.animationMode" setting to your choice of "normal", "none", or "once". Admittedly, I'd rather have a setting available in the normal preferences UI, but there's the howto for you...

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 18:22 UTC (Wed) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link]

Sorry, that should have been "image.animation_mode".

Galeon 1.2.x, bugs and work-arounds

Posted Feb 11, 2004 18:20 UTC (Wed) by jvotaw (subscriber, #3678) [Link]

I, too, am using Galeon 1.2.x, and am avoiding the switch to 1.3.x due to all of the features which have been ripped out. I'm running the last 1.2.x available under Gentoo, and I'm fairly sure it doesn't grow without bounds like it does under Debian. I have no explanation for that.

Bugs and work-arounds:

1. If Google is your home page, and you open a new tab, you won't be able to type into the text entry field. I believe this is the "typeahead find death grip" you mentioned, though I haven't noticed it as much on non-Google sites. Work-around: click on another tab, then back.

2. If you configure Galeon to save session information every time it exits, when it launches the next time it never manages to bring a window on screen. (Perhaps this is an interaction with my window manager: venerable tvtwm.) Work-around: force-kill Galeon.

3. When you start up Galeon the next time, all of your old tabs will be bookmarks. Selecting the "open all bookmarks in tabs" option does the right thing except that they are opened in reverse order, except for the first bookmark. Work-around: force-kill and restart Galeon an extra time, so you have two sets of bookmarks for the same pages, in opposite orders. (Is there a better solution?)

However, even with all of these bugs, it still has all of the configuration options that I want that I can't find elsewhere. In addition to the ones you listed, let me add the ability to position the tabs on the left edge of the window, control their width, and opt-out of close boxes on them.

-Joel

Galeon 1.2.x, bugs and work-arounds

Posted Feb 11, 2004 20:05 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

I think th editor isnt using 1.2.x anymore which is why he is so grumpy and he is seeing some of the problems you arent in memory size.

Galeon 1.2.x, bugs and work-arounds

Posted Feb 26, 2004 23:01 UTC (Thu) by nial-in-a-box (guest, #19824) [Link]

I don't understand how the author of this piece can even seriously consider using a piece of
software with such a blatant memory leak. While this could be the fault of his/her particular
configuration, it does not seem that any effort was made to research this. Sure, one bad thing
should not totally remove this browser from consideration, but it should not still be considered a
preference with such an obvious flaw. Even if this doesn't exist for other users, I fail to see how
the editor can still like this browser. This is equivalent to an auto review where the reviewer
gives a favorable rating to a new car that overheats if you don't shut it off and start it again every
30 minutes, simply because he/she happens to enjoy the way the seat feels. Unless you don't
give a shit about having to close all browser windows when you leave your workstation for a
while, or you have several gigabytes of memory, this is not acceptable. I assume that the
problem has been fixed by now, but please don't continue to give favorable reviews of flawed
software. Developers need good, accurate criticism if they are to make good software. If they
are praised for flaws, we will just have Microsoft products that developers aren't getting paid for.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 18:22 UTC (Wed) by tseaver (subscriber, #1544) [Link]

> The result is an ugly, hard-to-read screen which is reminiscent of the old
> Netscape 4.x days. Firefox behaves this way on Debian sid and Red Hat
> Linux 9 systems. Comments from others suggest that this is a problem that
> can be overcome, but it is clearly not a straightforward thing to do.

I found that the font rendering, which *did* suck on the "default" download, was vastly better after switching to the "gtk2+xfs" version.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 18:24 UTC (Wed) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link]

This is because the default uses the X core fonts rather than the Xft versions, which are the nice antialiased ones. I do wish they'd make the Xft version the default...

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 20:16 UTC (Wed) by TheOneKEA (subscriber, #615) [Link]

You can also use this: http://corefonts.sourceforge.net/

IMO this should be noted somewhere on the Mozilla webspaces. In fact I think I will add it to the new MozillaZine Knowledge Base at http://support.mozillazine.org/

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 21:55 UTC (Wed) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link]

No, I meant that the non-Xft build uses the X core font system, the one which requires the long, complicated font specs (such as -bitstream-bitstream vera sans-medium-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-1)

The Microsoft set of TrueType fonts has nothing to do with the Firefox font rendering problem--its glyphs will be ugly too if the browser doesn't use the Xft libraries. The difference is that with the X core fonts, the browser asks the X server (or an X font server) directly for the font glyphs, which are returned as bitmaps. The new Xft method uses a completely different rendering engine which uses the font outlines intelligently and enables antialiasing and other neat features.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 18:29 UTC (Wed) by alan (subscriber, #4018) [Link]

I'm rather disappointed to see Mozilla 1.6 not included in this review. My job involves a lot of web testing, and I've found that mozilla is quite a complete powertool browser, nicely themeable, and very fast. It allows more than enough control over javascript and image animation, I rely on its personal security manager in managing multiple accounts, its javascript debugger in the course of my work, and its memory footprint is very comparable to its Firefox derivate, a 'ps axvf' on my box shows a resident segment size of 71420. (on lk 2.6.2)

Moz 1.6 also rendered your test page extremely quickly, although I don't have specific numbers. Try it for yourself.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 12, 2004 11:34 UTC (Thu) by mdekkers (guest, #85) [Link]

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree -- I have used Fire{bird/fox} for a while, but a month or so ago moved back to using Mozilla. I find site compatibility a bit better, while stabillity, features etc simply shine in Mozilla, and still have a way to go with fire{bird/fox}.

Mozilla 1.6 is most fully featured

Posted Feb 13, 2004 1:08 UTC (Fri) by Mithrandir (subscriber, #3031) [Link]

Yep, I use Mozilla 1.6 because I like to use pretty much all of the features. It's nice to have an integrated suite that allows one to browse, check email, author HTML, use IRC etc.

And it's the parts like the Venkman JavaScript debugger that make this browser truly without equal. Ever tried to find a bug in JavaScript using IE? Forget it!

The extentions that I use are:

  • Flash Click To View - replaces all flash windows with a button that you can click to display. I find that at least 95% of flash on the web is ads. And particularly annoying adds.
  • Nuke Image - right click on an image and choose "Remove this image". Combined with "Block image from this server", this allows you to remove all annoying animated ads.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 18:32 UTC (Wed) by vblum (guest, #1151) [Link]

Is there a reason why you did not include the monolithic mozilla-suite browser in the review? It is true that it is _said_ to be slated for replacement, but beyond that, it sure does not look like it would die anytime soon. It also performs everyday browsing tasks without flaws for me (that would be 1.4.1, specifically). On the other hand, for instance Konqueror (KDE 3.1.4) tries to look flashier, but it does show distinctly more frequent rendering bugs or javascript issues.

Also, mozilla-bin claims to use 30 MB in top as I write this. I am a bit confused by that number - is it really that small these days?

PS Regarding Konqueror, I do know about KDE 3.2 ... but have not tested it.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 12, 2004 11:41 UTC (Thu) by pointwood (guest, #2814) [Link]

Konqueror in KDE 3.2 is miles ahead of previous versions. I'll not say that it's better than Mozilla or Opera, but it's not far behind them either.

Mozilla

Posted Feb 11, 2004 18:34 UTC (Wed) by ccyoung (guest, #16340) [Link]

Just wondering why you didn't include Mozilla in your list

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 18:36 UTC (Wed) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link]

I don't use KDE, but I use konqueror. While it launch lots of
subsystems at start up, it start faster and use less memory over all.

Far more importantly for me, memory usage is kept below an acceptable
level even after a week of browsing, unlike all the gecko-based
alternatives I have tried.

So I don't see "I'm not a KDE user" an excuse to not try out konqueror,
at least for comparaison purpose.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 20:20 UTC (Wed) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link]

Typing "apt-get install konqueror" was enough to deter me. Man that's a lot of stuff!

Konqueror is excellent. I think the KDE project really ought to consider disentangling it from the rest of KDE so that it enjoys more widespread use.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 21:32 UTC (Wed) by dkite (guest, #4577) [Link]

I tried the rendering speed test as above, and had to recheck the
numbers. 6.5 and 5.7 seconds? Huh? My konqueror, on a 2000 athlon took 3
seconds.

I think I'll put up with the rest of KDE (which is quite good BTW) to
enjoy these speeds.

Derek

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 22:40 UTC (Wed) by madscientist (subscriber, #16861) [Link]

As I'm sure everyone will realize, comparing your numbers to Mr. Grumpy's numbers is useless. You have no idea what kind of system he has, how much memory, his internet access methods, etc. etc. For it to be informative you have to perform all the timing tests on the same system.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 23:10 UTC (Wed) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link]

My konqueror, on a 2000 athlon took 3 seconds.

Reboot and try again.

Firefox takes ~11 seconds to start the first time on my system, and about 3 seconds on subsequent restarts in the same session.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 23:44 UTC (Wed) by xorbe (subscriber, #3165) [Link]

No need to reboot, run a program that sucks down all your ram and a little swap space too. Then try again.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 23:56 UTC (Wed) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link]

On my Athlon 2100+:

FireFox: 1.3 sec

Konqueror: 1.5 sec

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 12, 2004 7:15 UTC (Thu) by aleXXX (subscriber, #2742) [Link]

While this is seems like a good idea, it would be *very* hard to realize.
Basically konqueror is *the* integral application of kde, relying very heavily
on the features provided by the framework. Konqy alone almost can't do
anything, neither accessing local or remote file, neither displaying anything,
almost everything is done by using the framework.

Bye
Alex

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 22:05 UTC (Wed) by wolfrider (guest, #3105) [Link]

--Yah; if you already have KDE's supporting libraries installed, you can use konqueror from any KDE-aware GUI. I run it all the time from Sawfish.

--OTOH, if you don't already have anything related to KDE installed, it's prolly not worth it.

I agree

Posted Feb 13, 2004 16:48 UTC (Fri) by gleef (guest, #1004) [Link]

My computers' deskops are GNOME, I don't use "the whole KDE infrastructure", nor do I have it installed. However, I have happily used Konqueror on my system, and found it to be a useful and capable browser. All it demands is some libraries, the same thing that most browsers demand.

In particular, Galeon, which was reviewed, is just as demanding of "the whole GNOME infrastructure", in that it requires some core GNOME libraries.

I don't use Konqueror as my primary browser, but the "infrastructure" thing sounds like a lame and FUDdy excuse not to include it in a review. There's enough FUD in the world, there's no need for us to go flinging it ourselves.

New Tabs

Posted Feb 11, 2004 18:39 UTC (Wed) by lovelace (guest, #278) [Link]

Generally, when I open a new tab in a browser it's because I want to go somewhere new. I'd
rather not have to wait until the default home page loads before being able to do this. So, for
me, I'd rather have a new tab show up as a blank page.

New Tabs

Posted Feb 11, 2004 19:30 UTC (Wed) by umesh (guest, #3692) [Link]

I have several webpages as my homepage (FireFox can open them in different tabs at browser startup time). This makes putting homepage new tab as not an option.

And yes KONQUROR ROCKS!

New Tabs

Posted Feb 11, 2004 19:37 UTC (Wed) by xorbe (subscriber, #3165) [Link]

That's why one sets the homepage to a custom html file on a local drive!

New Tabs

Posted Feb 11, 2004 19:43 UTC (Wed) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link]

It's not just about loading time. If the homepage loads, the focus leaves the URL bar, so you cannot start typing another URL right away.

New Tabs

Posted Feb 11, 2004 20:05 UTC (Wed) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link]

Yeah, exactly. I didn't like this feature when I first made the switch from Galeon to Firebird, but now I really like it because I don't have to delete the homepage URL before I start typing in a new URL.

I put my "new tab" icon next to the "home" icon on the tool bar, which makes it easy to get a home page when I do want one.

New Tabs

Posted Feb 11, 2004 23:57 UTC (Wed) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link]

In fact, most browsers save the bookmark file as an HTML page on the
local hard drive; I've found this to be about the optimal home page for
me, because it's simple and quick to render, easy to update, and has the
pages that I generally want.

New Tabs -> used to paste directly

Posted Feb 12, 2004 16:02 UTC (Thu) by ernest (subscriber, #2355) [Link]


Indeed, I would not like to have to delete the new tab's adres line every time.

But I agree they should provide the choice.

Galeon 1.3.x

Posted Feb 11, 2004 18:44 UTC (Wed) by dcoutts (guest, #5387) [Link]

I'm using Galeon 1.3.12 on Gentoo (and I've been using most of the recent earlier releases) and I've never found that it eats memory.

For example top currently reports galeon-bin with 5 threads to be using 43M RES and 33m SHR. Although at the moment I've only got 5 tabs open, my browser session has been open for hours visiting complicated comercial sites as well as nice standards-complient sites (like LWN!).

I agree on the point about the borked bookmark editor. In 1.2.x there was this feature where you could bookmark the current page just by traversing down through the bookmark menu and selecting "add bookmark here" on the deired submenu. That was much simpler, easier, quicker and more intuitive. Plus, it made it easy to structure your bookmarks (unlike IE's "add bookmark" which just adds the page to the top level menu, leaving you to organise them later - which of course nobody ever does).

That was the primary complaint my father had too, and he's not a techie so it's a more important criticism from an "ordinary user usability" point of view.

Galeon 1.3.x

Posted Feb 11, 2004 22:56 UTC (Wed) by Martin.Schwenke (subscriber, #7764) [Link]

I was annoyed when the "Add bookmark here..." thing went away. Then
I found that it is still available: just right-click on the folder and it is
the top item on the menu. I'm still irked that you can't open the bookmark
editor pointing at a particular folder anymore though...

Galeon 1.2 fans unite -- on Konqueror

Posted Feb 11, 2004 19:16 UTC (Wed) by rfunk (subscriber, #4054) [Link]

I too was a big Galeon 1.2 fan. Then I installed Libranet 2.8 and had no
good way of using Galeon 1.2 instead of the abysmal 1.3. But I got KDE
3.1 in exchange, and that was a big win.

Konqueror is now my browser of choice. Yes, it has some minor
rendering/javascript bugs (should be better in KDE 3.2, which I haven't
tried yet). I keep Mozilla Firebird handy for the rare sites where those
bugs cause real problems. But Konqueror has almost every feature I liked
from Galeon 1.2, plus lots more, and it's pretty stable.

The main thing I still miss is Galeon 1.2's ability to recover from a
crash by restoring all tabs to the same site they were on before the
crash. Whenb Konqueror crashes, I lose all that state.

Being able to do a google search by typing gg:whatever into the location
box is wonderful, and doing "I'm Feeling lucky" with ggl:whatever is
really cool.

I recently discover a nice hidden Konqueror feature: holding shift while
moving the scoll wheel changes the text size on the web page. Not as
user-friendly as Galeon 1.2's magnification, but still handy.

I'd be more interested in Firefox (neƩ Firebird) if the plugins that make
it truly usable were easier to get and make work, preferably as a
distribution package (deb or rpm).

I also wonder why Mozilla wasn't included in this review.

Galeon 1.2 fans unite -- on Konqueror

Posted Feb 11, 2004 22:45 UTC (Wed) by madscientist (subscriber, #16861) [Link]

> I recently discover a nice hidden Konqueror feature: holding shift while
> moving the scoll wheel changes the text size on the web page.

Firebird 0.7 (and I'm assuming Firefox but I haven't tried it yet) does this too, although you use CTRL instead of SHIFT.

Very handy for some sites (like the Gentoo sites!) where the default font size is teeny-tiny on my 1600x1200 desktop :-)

Galeon 1.2 fans unite -- on Konqueror

Posted Feb 12, 2004 18:17 UTC (Thu) by lypanov (subscriber, #8858) [Link]

um this is a wierd trick for kde 3.2:
after a crash. open keditbookmarks.
use import -> open all crash sessions as bookmarks
select "as new folder"
ctrl-s to save your bookmarks
open konqueror
find the submenu of the bookmarks with the crash you want to reload
right click on the folder in the submenu
select 'open all bookmarks in tabs'

yeah its wierd. maybe i should make it easier :)

Alex

"type ahead find death grip"

Posted Feb 11, 2004 19:22 UTC (Wed) by rfunk (subscriber, #4054) [Link]

So could someone explain just what "type ahead find death grip" is? I
might've experienced it, but that name doesn't ring any bells for me.

"type ahead find death grip"

Posted Feb 11, 2004 19:24 UTC (Wed) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

That's when the browser gets into the "typeahead find" mode, and there's no way to get it to direct your keystrokes into the form you're trying to fill out. Usually I end up reloading the page to get out of this mode. Recent Galeon releases have gotten better in this regard, thankfully, but it still happens.

"type ahead find death grip"

Posted Feb 11, 2004 20:22 UTC (Wed) by TheOneKEA (subscriber, #615) [Link]

I disabled that in Firefox. Just go to Tools->Options->Advanced and deselect "Finf As You Type".

"type ahead find death grip"

Posted Feb 11, 2004 21:05 UTC (Wed) by stuart (subscriber, #623) [Link]

I'm so glad someone else suffers from this! I don't know how to properly initiate it, so it is not useful when it could be and when I use google it bites me. Gah.

Who finds this damn thing useful?

Stu.

"type ahead find death grip"

Posted Feb 11, 2004 22:35 UTC (Wed) by bryn (guest, #1482) [Link]

I can see a use for this, but it would be so much more useful if only happened on request. It's screaming out for tab-completion of some form.

"type ahead find death grip"

Posted Feb 12, 2004 0:07 UTC (Thu) by movement (guest, #871) [Link]

Press '/'. After some time getting used to it I find it indispensable. It's really a power user feature though; it should be off by default as it's not obvious that Escape will cancel it.

"type ahead find death grip"

Posted Feb 13, 2004 1:17 UTC (Fri) by Mithrandir (subscriber, #3031) [Link]

I find it very useful as I'm a vim user, and am thus used to typing a slash, followed by the search term, to find things. When it was first introduced into mozilla (in 1.1 or 0.9 something?) it was a bit buggy, but it has been completely stable now for ages.

I'm suprised the other browsers have probs with it. Does anyone know what the (approximate) numbers of users each of the open source browsers has? I'm guessing that things stabilise quicker in Mozilla because it has heaps of Windows users pounding on it.

"type ahead find death grip"

Posted Feb 12, 2004 0:06 UTC (Thu) by movement (guest, #871) [Link]

Pressing "Escape" doesn't work for you ?

"type ahead find death grip"

Posted Feb 12, 2004 0:09 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

No, pressing ESC doesn't help when it gets stuck in the typeahead find mode. Again, very recent Galeon releases have been a bit better in that regard. Epiphany 1.07 had the full-scale disease, though.

"type ahead find death grip"

Posted Feb 12, 2004 3:58 UTC (Thu) by jamesh (guest, #1159) [Link]

I am not that surprised that there are problems like that. The Gecko/Mozilla code does some really evil things with keyboard focus, to the extent where you are better off not mixing a native GTK widget that can take keyboard focus and a mozilla content area in the same toplevel window.

This is one of the reasons I usually use mozilla or firefox.

(Note that I haven't actually looked at these bits of the moz code for a few years, but unless they have been changed completely the problems would still be there)

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 19:26 UTC (Wed) by mhf (guest, #19256) [Link]

Was missing a review of opera. Currently using version 7.23 for linux.

Yes it is commercial, but in terms of speed and productivity it beats all other browsers.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 20:12 UTC (Wed) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link]

Was missing a review of opera. Currently using version 7.23 for linux. Just curious: load this page and see how Opera does. Firefox passes all but 3 tests; IE 6 fails all but the first.

PASSes for Opera 7.23 and Konqueror 3.1.4

Posted Feb 11, 2004 21:13 UTC (Wed) by JLCdjinn (guest, #1905) [Link]

Just gave it a shot. Opera 7.23 registers a pass on 0, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13. Konqueror 3.1.4 registers a pass on 0 and 1. Thanks for pointing the test out - very interesting. A question, though. It seems like each test is simply a query on a particular JavaScript built-in value; how accurate is this in actually determining if a particular browser supports the particular feature?

PASSes for Opera 7.23 and Konqueror 3.1.4

Posted Feb 11, 2004 23:14 UTC (Wed) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link]

It seems like each test is simply a query on a particular JavaScript built-in value; how accurate is this in actually determining if a particular browser supports the particular feature?

Not very, but sometimes it's the best you can do. MSFT in particular is bad. IE 6 only passes level 1 core, but even then it doesn't correctly implement all the the required methods.

PASSes for Opera 7.23 and Konqueror 3.1.4

Posted Feb 12, 2004 17:32 UTC (Thu) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link]

FYI, here's a link to the chapter in the ORA book from which I got this information:

http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/jscript4/chapter/ch17.html

It's very handy that the sample chapter they posted happens to be the one containing this information!

Like most O'reilly books this one is well above average. The first quarter of the book covers the JavaScript language, the second quarter covers web browsers as an execution environment, and the second half is a comprehensive reference. I own the 3rd and 4th editions, and recommend this book if you do any client-side web programming.

PASSes for Opera 7.23 and Konqueror 3.1.4

Posted Feb 12, 2004 18:20 UTC (Thu) by lypanov (subscriber, #8858) [Link]

jfyi 3.2 konqueror passes 10 tests (well, assuming i can count :))

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 22:08 UTC (Wed) by wolfrider (guest, #3105) [Link]

--Opera 6.12 for Linux:

W3C DOM Conformance Test

Level 1 Core/HTML Interfaces
FAIL

Level 1 Core/XML Interfaces
FAIL

Level 2 Core Interfaces
PASS

Level 2 HTML Interfaces
PASS

Level 2 XML Interfaces
FAIL

Abstract View Interface
FAIL

Generic Style Sheet Traversal
FAIL

CSS Styles [Views]
FAIL

CSS2 Properties Interface [CSS]
FAIL

Event Handling Infrastructure
PASS

User Interface Events [Events, Views]
PASS

Mouse Events [UIEvents]
PASS

HTML Events [Events]
PASS

Document Mutation Events [Events]
PASS

Document Range Interfaces
FAIL

Document Traversal Interfaces
FAIL

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 23:16 UTC (Wed) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link]

Interesting that it fails level 1 core, yet passes level 2 core.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 12, 2004 11:43 UTC (Thu) by pointwood (guest, #2814) [Link]

AFAIK, Opera 7.x is *much* improved over Opera 6.x.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 20:21 UTC (Wed) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link]

I use Opera too. And I just stare at those memory consumption values with dread in my eyes :-) The mentioned rendering times are also ridicolous - I didn't think my Duron 750 is that fast... And Opera has one more advangate - it works on other platforms too so I can easily keep the bookmarks in sync.

Bye,NAR

A few responses

Posted Feb 11, 2004 19:31 UTC (Wed) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

I didn't look at mozilla (1) for space and time reasons, and (2) because it is supposed to be an end-of-life project. If somebody is looking to switch browsers now, going to mozilla doesn't seem like the right idea.

With regard to Konqueror: I have never succeeded it making it work if KDE is not running. I may get as far as a window on screen, but with no active buttons. For me, at least, it clearly is not happy outside of the KDE environment. I'm looking for a browser, not a whole new desktop, so I didn't review it here. Konqueror is a nice application.

I had forgotten about about:config, frankly. That is not the friendliest interface, though. Add just a bit of documentation, however, and it's getting closer to what a serious user might want.

Can somebody post where you find the "gtk2+xfs" version of Firefox? I dug around for it for a while, but no joy.

A few responses

Posted Feb 11, 2004 19:33 UTC (Wed) by euvitudo (guest, #98) [Link]

You should poke around the FTP site. You'll find it in the same directory as the other version.

A few responses

Posted Feb 11, 2004 19:36 UTC (Wed) by euvitudo (guest, #98) [Link]

More specifically: ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/0.8/ (sorry for the reply to the reply)

A few responses

Posted Feb 11, 2004 20:27 UTC (Wed) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link]

It's also on the Mozilla disc. Mine showed up in my (snail) mailbox the same day the new version was announced. The subscription disc is well worth the money if you a) have a job, and b) suffer with a dial-up connection to your ISP.

Dependency problem?

Posted Feb 11, 2004 19:54 UTC (Wed) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link]

You may have a problem with your distribution. In Debian unstable, "apt-get konqueror" gets konqueror and the needed parts of KDE, which is enough to make Konqueror work. If you have all the dependencies resolved and Konqueror isn't working, your distribution may have broken packages with incorrect dependencies. This should be reported to the distribution maintainers. You may also want to remove ~/.kde just in case it has some old garbage.

Konqueror is great if you have to deal with many forms. It has large form controls that are easy to select by the mouse. Unlike Firefox, you cannot accidentally "focus" a radiobutton or a checkbox by the mouse without selecting it. I use Konqueror to manage Mailman moderation queues. It's worth the the disk space, the memory and the load time even if Firefox is already running.

Dependency problem?

Posted Feb 12, 2004 11:05 UTC (Thu) by kreutzm (guest, #4700) [Link]

Unfortunately, you also need to (manually) install the IO-Slaves, see this bug report for details.

A few responses

Posted Feb 11, 2004 20:52 UTC (Wed) by vblum (guest, #1151) [Link]

(2) is no longer correct, I think. In some recent mozilla news item (I forgot where, frankly), it was mentioned that the monolithic suite would stay around indefinitely after all, just that the Mozilla Foundation itself would rather expend its energy on the Bird & Fox.

A few responses

Posted Feb 11, 2004 20:54 UTC (Wed) by wes0472 (guest, #7541) [Link]

I'd strongly recommend you invest some time into getting Konqueror to
work with your current setup. If it isn't, something is broken with your
installation, I have been running Konqueror under GNOME or even remotely
on a CDE desktop for a year (or maybe two?) now. I'm running the latest
released version of Konqueror (3.2) from the official rpms on ftp.kde.org
on Fedora Core 1.

1) 98MB for a browser instance? That's crazy. I have SEVEN konqueror
processes running right now, and the total memory obtained from ps
-o'pid,rss,args' is 186MB. That's an average of 26MB/instance. I always
thought that was too much :)

2) Your example render takes a little over 5 seconds for Konqueror to
render the page *remotely*! I'm timing from when I click 'refresh' to
when the page is complete. I saved the page to my hard drive, repeated
the test from there - local render time is approximately 2.5 seconds.

3) I'm not even sure what you're talking about with this 'typeahead find
death grip'. I don't think this is a problem in Konqueror. You can
disable animations (or even set it to 'only animate once'). Fonts are
pretty. Bookmark editing works. It doesn't suffer from the 'users are
stupid don't let them configure anything' syndrome.

A long-satisfied Konqueror user.

About rendering times

Posted Feb 11, 2004 21:01 UTC (Wed) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

I should have pointed out that my rendering time tests were not done on the fastest machine on the planet. I'm still using the Penguin Computing box that I reviewed in LWN back in 1999... Time to do something about that.

About rendering times

Posted Feb 11, 2004 21:07 UTC (Wed) by wes0472 (guest, #7541) [Link]

Ah, good point. I'm running on a 1Ghz P4 with 512MB ram.

A few responses

Posted Feb 11, 2004 21:03 UTC (Wed) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link]

I have SEVEN konqueror processes running right now, and the total memory obtained from ps -o'pid,rss,args' is 186MB. That's an average of 26MB/instance.

That really doesn't tell us much. How much memory does it take to run a single instance?

A few responses

Posted Feb 11, 2004 21:08 UTC (Wed) by wes0472 (guest, #7541) [Link]


$ ps -eo'pid,rss,args' | grep konqueror

24917 26756 kdeinit: konqueror --preload
7947 20236 kdeinit: konqueror --preload
9453 22636 kdeinit: konqueror --preload
9468 27124 kdeinit: konqueror --preload
14103 32228 kdeinit: konqueror --preload
14242 28172 konqueror http://www.google.com
14476 36300 kdeinit: konqueror --preload

A few responses

Posted Feb 11, 2004 21:22 UTC (Wed) by wes0472 (guest, #7541) [Link]

Actually, I suppose you want to know konqueror + all the KDE support
processes. Hmm. Another good point. Plus I should have counted the IO
slaves in with my original number.

sysadm 22680 konqueror
sysadm 4600 kdeinit: Running...
sysadm 8312 kdeinit: dcopserver --nosid --suicide
sysadm 8624 kdeinit: klauncher
sysadm 12848 kdeinit: kded
sysadm 7960 kdeinit: kio_file
sysadm 7940 kdeinit: kio_file
sysadm 7944 kdeinit: kio_file
sysadm 7948 kdeinit: kio_file
sysadm 7952 kdeinit: kio_file
sysadm 8712 kdeinit: kio_http
sysadm 8708 kdeinit: kio_http

Total: 114288. A bit higher, unfortunately.

FYI, the 'kio_file' and 'kio_http' are slave processes shared among all
konqueror instances, even on my account with 7 instances, I still have
the same number. I believe the number of io slaves is configurable,
somewhere.

A few responses

Posted Feb 11, 2004 22:13 UTC (Wed) by wolfrider (guest, #3105) [Link]

--Thanks for that ps command example; I used it to see the RSS on Opera 6.12 with (27) windows open tabbed, and got this:

1234 1088 /bin/sh /usr/bin/opera
1236 58092 /usr/lib/opera/6.12-20030305.1/opera

--56MB for 27 windows ain't bad.

A few responses

Posted Feb 11, 2004 23:45 UTC (Wed) by tseaver (subscriber, #1544) [Link]

> Can somebody post where you find the "gtk2+xfs" version of Firefox? I dug
> around for it for a while, but no joy.

I found it linked on the "Release Notes" page:

http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/releases/

as:

"GTK2 + XFT", http://ftp.mozilla.org/.../firefox-0.8-i686-linux-gtk2+xft.tar.gz

A few responses

Posted Feb 12, 2004 11:57 UTC (Thu) by fjalvingh (guest, #4803) [Link]

It can be found here when you follow the download links:
http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/releases/#download

But they seem to have listened: the default download for Linux now returns the xft version ;-)

Firefox fonts

Posted Feb 11, 2004 21:05 UTC (Wed) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

Jon, be sure you're using the gtk2+xft build of Firefox. On Debian unstable here it sees the Vera fonts just fine. Just a guess - make sure you have the libxft2 package installed, and that you have "freetype" specified in the modules section of your X configuration.

Thanks

Bruce

Firefox fonts

Posted Feb 12, 2004 14:31 UTC (Thu) by scottt (subscriber, #5028) [Link]

The two suggestions don't affect the same thing.
The "freetype" module in XF86Config is of course for the old server-side X font system (the one's listed by xlsfonts).
The xft+gtk2 version of any gecko based browser uses client-side fonts, and will see the fonts listed by fc-list.

Firefox fonts

Posted Feb 12, 2004 16:15 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

Thanks!

Bruce

Old browser speed

Posted Feb 11, 2004 21:27 UTC (Wed) by southey (subscriber, #9466) [Link]

I also like galeon 1.2.8 so much that I run it under KDE! It is nice to see these type of article especially from the comments. For reference, on my dual 500P3 SuSE 8.2 with KDE it takes about 6 seconds to open that page (http://lwn.net/Articles/65739/) mentioned. Mozilla 1.2.1 takes very similar time. Konqueror 3.1.1 takes about 4 seconds.

Cool Firefox tips

Posted Feb 11, 2004 23:02 UTC (Wed) by frazier (guest, #3060) [Link]

I use these for Firefox and figured they'd be helpful to others too:
  • Google search results: CTRL+'K' and type search words then hit enter
  • Google search results: Hight text, right click, select "Web Search"
  • Fonts larger: CTRL+'+' (also doable by CTRL+mouse scrollwheel down)
  • Fonts smaller: CTRL+'-' (also doable by CTRL+mouse scrollwheel up)
  • Multiple home tabs: Set up all the pages you want on separate tabs then go Tools>Options>Use Current pages
  • History: CTRL+H (pretty standard)
  • Bookmarks: CTRL+B (pretty standard)
...and these I should use...
  • Next: ALT+Right arrow (also doable by SHIFT+mouse scrollwheel up)
  • Back: ALT+Left arrow (also doable by SHIFT+mouse scrollwheel down)
Happy Firefoxing!
-Brock

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 11, 2004 23:37 UTC (Wed) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link]

I'm actually typing this in an old version of Konqueror running without
any other KDE stuff visible other than an iconified xterm full of
messages. It is possible to just run konqueror if you've installed KDE as
far as kdebase. Not that I'd necessarily recommend this configuration
unless you're willing to spend quite a while poking at it to get it set
up the first time.

I like Galeon 1.3

Posted Feb 12, 2004 1:32 UTC (Thu) by erich (subscriber, #7127) [Link]

I really like Galeon 1.3, and there is no "missing feature" of 1.2 that i miss. Since the fork of epiphany all important features are back.
I've seen the memory eating issues, too - may i suggest you start with a fresh user? When constantly upgrading galeon through different mozilla versions the mozilla data files get all messed up it seems.

KDE3/Konqueror solved browser fonts issue 1 year ago

Posted Feb 12, 2004 8:37 UTC (Thu) by stock (guest, #5849) [Link]

"A grumpy user's browser review"

"One note before we get going: Konqueror is not included in this review.
Konqueror is a highly capable browser (and file manager) which is worthy
of consideration, but it suffers from one fatal flaw (from your editor's
point of view): it will not run without the whole KDE infrastructure
running behind it. Your editor is not currently a KDE user, so Konqueror
is not an available option. "

Today we call that integration. Thats why konqueror is the fastest
browser by far. You can test what you want, everytime the KDE team
notices some interesting features, they add it very very easlily inside
KDE/Konqueror. Running something like FireFox seems ok, but its waisting
your KDE desktop resources. Galeon is an old browser, which almost no-one
_uses_.

I notice that the main discussion is on grumpy fonts handling.
KDE3.1.x/Konqueror and above have solved this issue over 1 year ago. I
simply cannot believe what these hardheaded GNOME addicts are buggering
about.

Robert

KDE3/Konqueror solved browser fonts issue 1 year ago

Posted Feb 12, 2004 14:36 UTC (Thu) by scottt (subscriber, #5028) [Link]

The hard work for solving the X font issues are really done by Keith Packard and the freetype team.( see http://freedesktop.org/software/fontconfig )
Let's give credit where it's due.

KDE3/Konqueror solved browser fonts issue 1 year ago

Posted Feb 12, 2004 15:44 UTC (Thu) by wookey (subscriber, #5501) [Link]

"KDE3.1.x/Konqueror and above have solved this issue over 1 year ago"

Maybe, but whilst I agree with all those who say konqerour is great (and I use it on a gnome desktop and in the ion windowmanager - never in KDE), I get nice fonts in galeon, mozilla and epiphany, and horrid fonts in konqueror.

All I do is apt-get <browser> in Debian unstable or testing and hope things work - I try to avoid having to dick with fonts as I don't understand any of it. Perhaps I am missing some optional component?

Overall I like Galeon best 'cos it's easy to read, but konqueror is much more stable and if it had nice fonts too I might have it as my default (I too love the gg: feature), but then ctrl-U in galeon clears the whole URL, not just the URL to the left. No browser is ever perfect :-)

The biggest problem I have overall is that ever since I tried to install a flash plugin all of mozilla, galeon and epiphany crash every time I try to render a page with flash on it - this is a complete PITA and I don't really know what to do about it. Konq just pops up a tiresome window asking if I want to download a flash plugin, to which the answer is now an emphatic 'no' - be nice if it stopped asking me :-)

Overall though, despite these various minor gripes, I now find that I have a choice of several browsers which will mostly read everything, and one will always work even if others have trouble somewhere. That's good enough for me, and a huge improvement over 3 years ago.

Oh, and how do I make java work in mozilla - I've never been able to find any docs telling me what to do...?

Mozilla java help

Posted Feb 19, 2004 13:01 UTC (Thu) by rjforster (guest, #3375) [Link]

Re: Oh, and how do I make java work in mozilla - I've never been able to find any docs telling me what to do...?

There is a good tutorial on fedoranews.org. It isn't necessarily fedora specific so you should be OK with whatever distro you are using.
Two points not in the tutorial though are:
1) Set a JAVA_HOME environment variable so that other java apps (non mozilla) can find it. So to do that and add to the PATH I put:
export JAVA_HOME=/usr/local/j2sdk1.4.2
PATH=$JAVA_HOME/bin:$PATH
into my .bash_profile (on a line prior to export PATH)

2) it stumped me for a while but was obvious when I realised it, be careful with directory permissions, as a regular user I couldn't read /usr/local/j2sdk1.4.2 at first and so mozilla couldn't use the plugin.

Oh and be sure to download the version built with the same compiler as Mozilla, it will have gcc3.2 in the filename to work with modern mozillas.

KDE3/Konqueror solved browser fonts issue 1 year ago

Posted Feb 12, 2004 15:51 UTC (Thu) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link]

Running something like FireFox seems ok, but its waisting your KDE desktop resources.

This of course depends entirely on your point of view. Someone else may view running Konqueror as a waste their Mozilla resources, or of their Gnome resources. But it's quite clear which side of the mountain you're looking up. ;-)

KDE3/Konqueror solved browser fonts issue 1 year ago

Posted Feb 13, 2004 1:59 UTC (Fri) by KaiRo (subscriber, #1987) [Link]

Maybe I could say that developing Konqueror/KHTML when there's Gecko already there is a waste of developing resoucres. I won't though, as we're in the space called "Open Source" here, and therein everybody is free to develop what (s)he wants, and should be free to use the software (s)he wants.

I love to use KDE, and I love to use Mozilla (which still has wuite some time time to go) and be an active part of the Mozilla project.

It only sometimes pisses me off if someone tells me "use of a different sofwtware than I want to force to use you is waste of resources". We should try to make freedom of choice easier, not harder. Remember that. Freedom of choice is one strength of Linux systems that others don't have (to that extent).

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 12, 2004 10:13 UTC (Thu) by ewen (subscriber, #4772) [Link]

Another obnoxious little limitation with Epiphany is that it does not allow a URL to be "pasted" into the browser with the middle mouse button

I'd actually really like to be able to turn that "feature" off in Mozilla (or find some other browser which had most of Mozilla's features but not that annoying one). I've got a keybinding for "open the URL in the cut buffer", which I use all the time (especially for URLs selected out of xterms, etc). I don't need "gosh I missed that link by one pixel" to attempt to send me off to something random which happens to be in the cut buffer causing me to lose my place. (I usually middle-click on links to open them in a new tab; it's easier to keep track of where I want to get back to that way.)

Given how easy it is to bind a key sequence to "open this URL" (and at least in the case of Mozilla you can even have it just open another tab in the existing browser) I really don't see the attraction of "pasting" a URL into a browser window and losing where you were.

Oh, and while I'm commenting, one other Big Win (tm) feature from my point of view would be to be able to embed vim as the text area editor. Even while typing this comment I tried to use vi-style commands and was puzzled when they didn't work right...

Ewen

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 13, 2004 1:30 UTC (Fri) by dododge (subscriber, #2870) [Link]

Given how easy it is to bind a key sequence to "open this URL" (and at least in the case of Mozilla you can even have it just open another tab in the existing browser) I really don't see the attraction of "pasting" a URL into a browser window and losing where you were.

Because you've just highlighted the target URL with the mouse, and a key binding would require use of the keyboard. At least that's what would annoy me about it. Same as if I were using key bindings to do several operations in sequence and one of them in the middle required the mouse.

The middle-mouse-paste-URL feature has been in there at least since early versions of Netscape and possibly even Mosaic. I'd consider it a required feature if I were going to be doing a lot of browsing (along with tabs and crashed session recovery). These are among the reasons why I still use the old Galeon even though it dies on me regularly.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 18, 2004 15:29 UTC (Wed) by petebull (guest, #7857) [Link]

I'd actually really like to be able to turn that "feature" off in Mozilla

Easy thing: Enter "about:config" in a Mozilla window and filter by "middle", you'll be presented with the option "middlemouse.contentLoadURL" which you can set to "false" to be excluded from the usergroup that likes that feature.

If you like to edit files, put 'user_pref("middlemouse.contentLoadURL", false);' into "~/.mozilla/<profilename>/<salt>/user.js". That feature should be gone, if you start mozilla afterwards.

Have fun,
Peter

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 18, 2004 17:39 UTC (Wed) by ewen (subscriber, #4772) [Link]

put 'user_pref("middlemouse.contentLoadURL", false);' into "~/.mozilla/<profilename>/<salt>/user.js".

Excellent, thank you very much for this. Other than finding that I didn't have a user.js, but did have a prefs.js, it appears to exactly solve my problem. I hadn't actually realised there were so many configuration options that couldn't be set through the preferences GUI, or that about:config was an easy way to identify them all.

Thanks for your help,

Ewen

Missing links

Posted Feb 20, 2004 11:30 UTC (Fri) by kmself (subscriber, #11565) [Link]

I use a userContent.css stylesheet to highlight links when the pointer hovers over them. They're brightened and bolded when pressed. You can abort by hitting <esc> if you don't mean to hit the link. I find the feedback provided is quite useful.

My home page shows the effect.

Mozilla on KNOPPIX: 3 seconds

Posted Feb 12, 2004 16:53 UTC (Thu) by AnswerGuy (guest, #1256) [Link]

Ummm, that benchmark he used, seems suspicious. I clicked on the link
provided and the "huge table" was fetched and rendered in less then 4
seconds by my copy of Mozilla 1.5-2 as shipped with KNOPPIX 3.3. This
is on my old Dell Optiplex GX1 which is just a 400MHz Pentium II; and
over my iDSL line which is 144Kbps.

... and I'm sure it wasn't in a cache nor am I going through a squid
cache/proxy.

So, what gives with that?

Galeon 1.3

Posted Feb 12, 2004 22:35 UTC (Thu) by daenzer (✭ supporter ✭, #7050) [Link]

I've been happily using it for a while. I originally missed some stuff from 1.2, but the GTK2 look'n'feel alone was worth the switch, and I can't remember a single 1.2 feature I don't have now.

As for memory consumption: my Galeon session (BTW, as others have pointed out, session management is a great strength of Galeon) consists of about 100 tabs in 5 windows. It's been running for about a week:

2439 daenzer 15 0 143m 95m 47m S 0.0 9.5 19:38.42 galeon-bin

About 1 MB per tab doesn't strike me as all that much. Clearly YMMV though.

Oh, and the current version also remembers the zoom level per site. :)

Galeon 1.3

Posted Feb 19, 2004 23:05 UTC (Thu) by rhkramer (guest, #15212) [Link]

Re: the 100 tabs in 5 windows:

Is each of those windows a separate (independent) instance?

I switched from Mozilla to Konqueror (currently 3.1.1) about a year ago,
and I'm very happy.

The main reason I switched was I would quite often have 100 to 200 tabs
open in up to 20 windows, but if anything caused a single window or tab to
crash, all those tabs and windows went with it.

In konqueror, each window is a separate instance, so at most I lose the
tabs in one window on a crash (and I very rarely have a crash).

I should mention that I don't have Java or Flash installed, and javascript
doesn't always seem to work.

Galeon 1.3

Posted Feb 27, 2004 1:33 UTC (Fri) by daenzer (✭ supporter ✭, #7050) [Link]

It's a single instance, but Galeon's excellent session management prevents me from losing a single tab on the rare occasion of a crash.

Has Debian packaged Firefox already?

Posted Feb 13, 2004 3:18 UTC (Fri) by Max.Hyre (subscriber, #1054) [Link]

Dear LWNers:

I can't find any mention of Firefox in searching any of Packages, the general site, or the last two months of -User or -Devel mailing lists. Some posts above, alluding to having it on Debian systems, got my hopes up.

Ah, well...time to ftp the raw package and stash it in /usr/local.

Best wishes,
Max Hyre

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 16, 2004 12:47 UTC (Mon) by mwilck (guest, #1966) [Link]

Galeon 1.3 suffers from the GNOME "don't confuse those poor, helpless users by letting them configure things" disease

Thank you so much for that statement. I couldn't agree any more full-heartedly. Finally I see someone with a voice in the community complain about this nonsense ... I was already thinking that I was the only person in the universe who hates that "WE know what YOU want" attitude.

All that is now needed is that the GNOME guys finally get it, too. Not that I am too optimistic about that, though.

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 17, 2004 3:21 UTC (Tue) by jdub (subscriber, #27) [Link]

Note that <i>"don't confuse those poor, helpless users by letting them configure things"</i> or <i>"WE know what YOU want"</i> is not even remotely where the GNOME Project is coming from with regards to usability. :-)

A grumpy user's browser review

Posted Feb 17, 2004 21:27 UTC (Tue) by mwilck (guest, #1966) [Link]

Not what they were coming from, but apparently what they're heading to. Or maybe not? I'd be happy to be proven wrong.


No KDE? no problem

Posted Feb 20, 2004 17:23 UTC (Fri) by willjamr (guest, #19631) [Link]

Pop in a KNOPPIX live CD and boot.

Try Konqueror with next to no effort and
no installation.

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