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ssh and security
HTTP://www.asktog.com/columns/058SecurityD'ohlts.html
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ssh and security Posted Dec 4, 2003 16:26 UTC (Thu) by scripter (subscriber, #2654) [Link] Thank you! I thought your letter was informative, and it makes people aware of the limitations of SSH.You mention that a challenge response system is a solution to the shortcomings of SSH. Unfortunately, as far as I know, a hardware based challenge-response system is prohibitively expensive, especially in the OSS development model. And it is difficult to distribute the hardware (or a paper with one-time passwords). The hardware costs money. Postage costs money. Administration costs time and/or money. The person issuing the challenge-response system to users has to be able to verify if they want to trust each individual user. Is there a way to "revoke" a smart card or equivellent system? Is there a software-only solution that avoids the high distribution costs? Thoughts?
Can't afford smart cards? Posted Dec 4, 2003 19:46 UTC (Thu) by kbob (subscriber, #1770) [Link] USB smart cards are available for about $40 US. If each developer bought his own, and if each developer could store all his keys on a single card, it would be affordable for the majority of developers. A sponsorship program could provide cards (yes, and postage) to those few who couldn't buy their own.Then it's an engineering problem of building a web of trust based on smart card authentication. K<bob>
Can't afford smart cards? Posted Dec 4, 2003 21:20 UTC (Thu) by dd9jn (subscriber, #4459) [Link] BTW, we plan to sell the OpenPGP smartcard for about 15 Euro, so you merely need an USB reader (~35 EUR - it should be possible to negotiate discounts). The advantage is that the existing WoT can be used to bootstrap this and the card may also be used for signing and encryption. OpenSC already has experimental support using this card with ssh and gnupg 1.3.4 comes with the card key generation and encryption feature.-Werner
Can't afford smart cards? Posted Dec 5, 2003 19:25 UTC (Fri) by atsmyles (guest, #2777) [Link] Where can I find more information about this product?
ssh and security Posted Dec 4, 2003 23:57 UTC (Thu) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link] there are packages available to do one-time passwords (OPIE comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others). in addition I have seen several palmpilot packages over the years that implement different options.personally I use a hardware token I purchased several years ago that does the snk004 protocol. This protocol is implemented in the firewall toolkit so I can throw it on any system I want to protect. I actually have several that I administer where I care more about the authentication then sniffing so I use telnet/ftp with good authentication as opposed to an encrypted connection without the authentication. it's a judgement call that should be made based on the risk in your system. I would love to be able to tie something like this into ssh and get both, but without hacking the code ssh makes it very hard to do this. the closed source version of ssh has added the ability to ask an external program if a userid and password are correct, but that external program has no way to send a challange to the user so that mechanism can't be used for this type of thing. One thing I didn't touch on in the letter is that most of these systems do rely on a shared secret so that if one system is comprimised you need to update all the other systems that you access. the new smartcards use public key encryption (and have the ability to hold multiple shared secrets securely) so they will lessen the work to be done when one system gets cracked. David Lang
ssh and security Posted Dec 10, 2003 20:23 UTC (Wed) by gswoods (subscriber, #37) [Link] You can do it with PAM modules. We've got one that uses the TIS FWTK authentication server (free software) with the Axent SNK DES-based tokens (now made by PassGo).
ssh and security Posted Dec 11, 2003 5:49 UTC (Thu) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link] Thanks, I'll have to look into the details of PAM, I'm useing the FWTK and the defender tokens, but up until very recently I've been useing a non-PAM distro.
ssh and security Posted Dec 5, 2003 18:24 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (subscriber, #1954) [Link] OK, but lets cut to the chase on what change the letter proposes: It does not propose a challenge-response system, because SSH already has that. It proposes to move authentication out to an isolated, hardened system.The paper with the passwords on it is such a system. It can't do a fraction of what a Linux system can do, and so is much harder to compromise. The smartcard has similar properties. Because it doesn't have the flexibility to do things like run a web server, it's much harder for someone to break into it and steal your keys than it is to break into a Linux system and steal its SSH keys.
ssh and security Posted Dec 6, 2003 4:20 UTC (Sat) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link] I am warning that the strength of the authentication that ssh provides is only as good as the security on the remote machine. if it's a strongly protected machine you can say with a fair amount of confidence that the ssh connection really is from the user that you say that it is, if the remote machine is something you have no idea what it's configuration is then you really don't know if the ssh connection comeing from it is really the person it says it is.as a result the ssh user authentication is not good enough for the use that it is routinly put to. I'm not saying that both sides of the authentication need to be seperate from ssh, but I am saying that the client side needs to be seperate so that a remote comprimise doesn't grant access. there was a story a year or so ago about someone who was putting keystroke sniffers on the public access machines at kinkos. this would mean that anyone who used ssh from those machines becomes a direct threat to the servers that they log into. for opensource project servers with hundreds or thousands of users can you really trust that there isn't SOMEONE in this group that uses ssh from a insecure machine? as soon as someone does then that account could become a stepping stone for an exploit like Debian suffered where a local exploit is essentially the same as a remote exploit. You are right about the core being the need to move authentication out from the general purpose system, but there is the additional layer of trying to shock people out of their complacency and the growing mindset that ssh == secure in addition there is a slight hope that if enough people find the argument reasonable that openssh can pickup a modification that will allow this to take place easily ;-)
PDAs and ssh and security Posted Dec 11, 2003 23:02 UTC (Thu) by eli (subscriber, #11265) [Link] As an admittedly partial step in the direction you describe in your letter, you mightconsider that many developers have PDAs that could be used in the challenge-response process. Have a key on the pda and generate the response from it (and maybe the time). (I'm envisioning the pda displaying it for the user to enter.) I store my passwords on my PDA (encrypted with a master password), so this would be the next logical step. I'd feel a whole lot better with a setup like that for my home PCs. Thoughts?
PDAs and ssh and security Posted Dec 12, 2003 22:47 UTC (Fri) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link] a PDA does a good job of this and can replace a hardware token.ASSUMING that the contents of the PDA are secured appropriatly. for example if the application checks your password and then if it matches gives you access to a datafile someone else can get access to the data if you sync it to your desktop. however if the data on the PDA is encrypted with no encryption key ever stored on the PDA then it's much better for example if you need to store a 64 bit key on the PDA the best way I've seen is to ask the user for a PIN and then encrypt the key useing that PIN and store the result, when the user needs to access the key have them enter a PIN and use that to decrypt the key, the thing that makes this work is that the key is a random binary blob, an attacker has no way of knowing if it decrypted sucessfully or not, the only way to know is to attempt to use it to access another system. this means that even with a 4 digit PIN it will take an average of 500 login attempts to find that it's right, giveing you a chance to notice (to many bad login protection)
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