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US Supreme Court rules against software patents

In April, LWN reported on the case of Alice Corp. v. CLS Bank International, which addresses the issue of whether ideas implemented in software are patentable. The ruling [PDF] is now in: a 9-0 decision against patentability. "We hold that the claims at issue are drawn to the abstract idea of intermediated settlement, and that merely requiring generic computer implementation fails to transform that abstract idea into a patent-eligible invention."

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US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 19, 2014 16:04 UTC (Thu) by fest3er (guest, #60379) [Link] (7 responses)

In other news, Hades experienced a rare cold snap; it was cloudy with a temperature of -12°C early this morning. And winged hogs were seen soaring over a farm 15 miles west of Worthington, Minn., at daybreak.

The decision was long overdue.

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 19, 2014 16:50 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (6 responses)

Actually, I think this decision was to be expected - the Supreme Court has always been a beacon of sanity.

When we get a ruling like this from the next court down - the Federal Court - I think THAT will be a sign that Hell is freezing over ...

Cheers,
Wol

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 19, 2014 17:21 UTC (Thu) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link]

Note that Supreme Court upholded the CAFC decision this time.

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 19, 2014 17:38 UTC (Thu) by wahern (subscriber, #37304) [Link] (4 responses)

We wouldn't be in this position but for SCOTUS decisions midcentury. The shift from emphasizing patentability to emphasizing obviousness (and thus demurring to the USPTO) happened in the 60s and 70s. Although it's been cyclical over the past 200 hundred years.

But I think perhaps that the modern SCOTUS is more suspicious of the regulatory state and appreciative of arguments like regulatory capture, and while politics and history tends to dictate how strongly they express that sentiment in other areas, wrt patents they feel more free to push back a little.

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 20, 2014 0:50 UTC (Fri) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link] (3 responses)

The critical supreme court decisions that opened up business method and software patents were in the 80's. Congress shortly afterwards cemented the decisions in the federal code. They further relaxed the standard of what qualifies as a patent in the late 80's in several suits against the USPTO.

Everyone blames the USPTO for this but the fact is the Supreme court and Congress forced them to issue most of those patents. We're reaping what we sowed.

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 20, 2014 1:17 UTC (Fri) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]

I'm open to correction on this, but my reading of it was that the Supreme Court invalidated Flook and Benson in the 70s. Then upheld Diehr in 81. Then the CAFC was created and the Supreme Court completely stopped hearing patentable subject matter cases until Bilski in 2010.

Diehr wasn't really a software patent, but the pro-patent CAFC used it as a basis for allowing software patents. The CAFC just kept on narrowing the exclusions (hitting an all-time low with State Street). Software patenting only really took off in the 90s.

But finally, since 2010, the Supreme Court has decided to start taking patentable subject matter cases again and they're invalidating everything because the CAFC's practice has simply gone off the rails.

So I'd mostly blame the CAFC. One could criticise the Supreme Court for not stepping in sooner, but it's also understandable that they wanted to give the newly-created CAFC some time to develop its case law and grow into a strong institution.

(I was under the impression that the legislation hasn't changed significantly. I hadn't heard about the USPTO getting sued by the government.)

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 20, 2014 3:05 UTC (Fri) by wahern (subscriber, #37304) [Link] (1 responses)

It all started in the 1950s. The 1950s was a cyclical trough in the scope of patent eligibility. You can look at graphs of both the strictness of Supreme Court decisions regarding patents and patent rejections by the USPTO, and they peak mid century.

The 1952 Patent Act was principally written by [future] Judge Giles Rich. In 1956 he was nominated for a seat on the Court of Customs and Patent Appeals. He then spent four decades on the bench protecting and expounding upon his invention, expanding the scope of eligibility. Having been the author of the bill, his judicial opinions (even when in dissent) were extremely influential. You can trace the SCOTUS decisions in cases like Chakrabarty, Diehr, and State Street Bank to his opinions and arguments.

So the scope of patent eligibility was driven by both an overall change in business attitudes, as well as by the legal academy, with Rich and a few others in the vanguard. But of course it took awhile for their labor to bear fruit.

It was an ideologically driven movement; an ideology regarding the interplay of capital, property rights, and technological development. (And arguably a cousin to the law and economics movement.) All the concepts law students learn in patent law classes can be traced back to Rich and his ilk, because the truth of the matter is that before that era the conceptual underpinnings to patent law were never as sophisticated--or contrived--as they are today.

Like most ideologically driven movements, they never cared much about empirical evidence, as they were convinced about the validity of their concepts. Hopefully we're finally waking up not only to the obvious costs, but as well as to the flaws in modern arguments for patent monopolies.

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 20, 2014 3:13 UTC (Fri) by wahern (subscriber, #37304) [Link]

I did some quick Googling to find some sources to back me up (it's been years since I studied this stuff seriously, and I don't have access to academic databases anymore). Here's an interesting paper discussing Rich's legacy.

http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/migrated/intelprop/magazine/LandslideSept09_Davis.authcheckdam.pdf

Quote:

Whether justified or not, all this led to a chilling effect on patent law and practices, with diminution of the value of patents as well as the willingness of business, especially small business, to invest in research and development and take the financial risks necessary to start up or extend a business. One Supreme Court justice, Mr. Justice Jackson, summed it up bluntly in 1949: "... the only patent that is valid is one which this Court has not been able to get its hands on."
Enter Giles Rich.

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 19, 2014 16:11 UTC (Thu) by dag- (guest, #30207) [Link] (1 responses)

Somewhat more information from swpat.org:

http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Alice_v._CLS_Bank_ruling_by_US_S...

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 19, 2014 18:42 UTC (Thu) by Max.Hyre (subscriber, #1054) [Link]

+1

The link is a distillation of the decision to its essentials. If you think the full decision is tl;dr, follow that link.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 19, 2014 16:31 UTC (Thu) by b7j0c (guest, #27559) [Link] (68 responses)

they merely ruled that one company's software did not meet the threshold. they did not throw the concept of software patents out the window

i see no reason to be optimistic about the patent situation in the US. nothing meaningful has changed in years...meaningful reform has never attracted support...the number of cases and damages is as high as ever. patents will be "solved" when the market is dominated by a few massive entities who just lose interest in pursuing further damages (see: recent truce talks between apple and samsung)

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 19, 2014 16:50 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (5 responses)

Just finished reading the opinion.

It seems that they made a precedent that merely replicating a business idea on a computer is not enough. And this precedent should be binding, expect new USPTO rules soon. So we might see the demise of the infamous 1-Click patent.

However, this ruling does not invalidate all the software patents. If a patent describes a novel way of doing a task (like compressing a video frame) then it's OK under this ruling. So file format patents are most likely here to stay for now.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 22, 2014 20:38 UTC (Sun) by Seegras (guest, #20463) [Link] (4 responses)

> However, this ruling does not invalidate all the software patents.

I frankly can not understand what is even the issue there. It's illegal. Point. It says so in the law: Mathematics are not patentable. I don't understand why anyone could squabble about it.

Unless you want to define Pi=3.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 23, 2014 2:32 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (3 responses)

>It says so in the law: Mathematics are not patentable.
The law says no such thing. Go and read it, please.

The relevant passage is:
> Whoever invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof, may obtain a patent therefor, subject to the conditions and requirements of this title.

So the question is whether software running on a general-purpose computer is a new machine. SCOTUS ruled that it is indeed so.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 8:53 UTC (Tue) by Seegras (guest, #20463) [Link] (2 responses)

>> It says so in the law: Mathematics are not patentable.
> The law says no such thing. Go and read it, please.

Oh hell. I did. I know there's some ruling that says so, but indeed, it's apparently not in the US patent law:
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/mpep-9015-appx-...

I just assumed it is. Because it sure as hell is in the European Patent Convention:
http://www.epo.org/law-practice/legal-texts/html/epc/2013...

"2 The following in particular shall not be regarded as inventions within the meaning of paragraph 1:
a) discoveries, scientific theories and mathematical methods;
[...]
c) schemes, rules and methods for performing mental acts, playing games or doing business, and programs for computers;"

> So the question is whether software running on a general-purpose
> computer is a new machine. SCOTUS ruled that it is indeed so.

Ah yes, the fabulous Moby Dick Support Device: http://seegras.discordia.ch/Blog/the-moby-dick-support-de...

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 17:12 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

> I just assumed it is. Because it sure as hell is in the European Patent Convention

Yet there are tons of software patents in Europe. Mostly on codecs and similar stuff.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 18:15 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Just because the matter is invalid subject matter, doesn't stop the European Patent Office from granting invalid patents.

It never stopped the US Patent Office from granting invalid patents, either.

Cheers,
Wol

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 19, 2014 18:00 UTC (Thu) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] (61 responses)

> i see no reason to be optimistic

Then you should read the words of Gene Quinn (who makes a living my obtaining software patents and always says he knows a way to get around new limits):

an intellectually bankrupt opinion ... will render many hundreds of thousands of software patents completely useless ... On first read I don’t see how any software patent claims written as method or systems claims can survive challenge.

http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2014/06/19/scotus-rules-alice-s...

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 19, 2014 19:04 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (50 responses)

Patents like 'slide-to-unlock' will survive the challenge - they are not implementations of abstract ideas. Rather they are 'inventions' that happen to use computers.

File format patents are probably also safe.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 19, 2014 19:59 UTC (Thu) by paragw (guest, #45306) [Link] (49 responses)

Someone wrote below :
> It rules against patents of the form "do these steps that are already well-known in the field, but do them on a computer".

So isn't slide to unlock exactly that? We have known how to slide a bolt to unlock in real life, Apple's doing just the same on a computer.

> they are not implementations of abstract ideas. Rather they are 'inventions' that happen to use computers.

Again the invention was already known - they merely made the computer do it.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 0:54 UTC (Fri) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link] (16 responses)

The original slide switch was patented around 300 years ago in England. IMO you can say pretty affirmatively that designing said switch in software is not innovative. I too think this ruling gut's "slide to unlock" along with 1-click.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 22, 2014 20:43 UTC (Sun) by Seegras (guest, #20463) [Link] (14 responses)

> The original slide switch was patented around 300 years ago in England.

What??? Which complete moron granted that? It's more than 3000 years old!

http://seegras.discordia.ch/Blog/patents-on-bronze-age-te...

Probably this is just the way of the world to tell me, that ALL patents are rubbish, and the concept of patents itself is just some blatant rent-seeking effort which should have been erased from this planet in the 18th century.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 10:01 UTC (Tue) by Tjebbe (guest, #34055) [Link] (13 responses)

> Probably this is just the way of the world to tell me, that ALL patents are rubbish, and the concept of patents itself is just some blatant rent-seeking effort which should have been erased from this planet in the 18th century.

They are, and they should.

A few countries have had a some bright moments in history and abolished patents (the Netherlands, for instance, but they later reintroduced them. I can only guess because of international pressure).

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 17:11 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (12 responses)

Patents on drugs are useful. As are certain mechanical patents.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 17:16 UTC (Tue) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link]

Citation needed.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 18:17 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (10 responses)

> Patents on drugs are useful.

So pharmaceutical propaganda would have you believe ...

I think the evidence is that even there they do more harm than good ...

Cheers,
Wol

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 19:31 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (9 responses)

We work from folks in drug discovery.

Here's an example. This drug ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofosbuvir ) costs about $150 to manufacture. Yet its retail price is about $80000.

You'd think the markup on each bottle of pills is $79850? Wrong, it's only about $20000 - about 30% of price. The rest goes towards financing the expenses incurred during the drug development.

The problem is, it took around 5 billions of dollars to discover and test this drug. And it's only getting worse with new drugs.

So what are your suggestions?

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 21:13 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (8 responses)

> So what are your suggestions?

Stop spending millions on developing minor variations on drugs that are about to go out of patent?

Actually STARTING to spend some money on sorely needed drugs for illnesses that don't affect westerners?

Or reducing the ability of the food manufacturers to sucker/advertise us into eating unhealthy diets (it's looking more and more certain that the low fat industry has got cause and effect the wrong way round - the diet industry is the *cause*, and obesity is the *effect*)?

And you said that things are only getting worse - maybe we should try and reduce this obsession (driven by the American legal industry) that everything "must be safe". LIFE ISN'T SAFE!!!

Do a *real* risk analysis and allow dangerous drugs for serious illnesses to be trialled much more quickly and with far fewer self-defeating safeguards - if I stand a 10% chance of dying from the illness, and a 1% chance of dying from the drug, guess which one I'm going to choose!

And lastly, maybe allow companies to carve out research niches as "protected areas" - if a company does "blue-sky" research into a drug family, then they get exclusive rights for say 10 years after the drug gets FDA (or equivalent) approval. More to the point, other companies aren't allowed to copy-cat research into similar drugs - they have to carve out their own niche.

But at the end of the day, while your figures may be impressive, you still haven't provided any evidence that that research is value for money. All the evidence says that, even measured in $Billions, most pharma research isn't! Okay, sofosbir may be a completely new drug (which would be protected under my "carve out a niche" rules), but equally (the wikipedia article gives no clues) it could just be a minor variant on an existing drug.

Cheers,
Wol

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 21:26 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (7 responses)

> Stop spending millions on developing minor variations on drugs that are about to go out of patent?
This drug is completely new. It's also for a disease that is a major cause of liver transplants.

Yet it still took more than 5 billion to develop this drug. It's actually considered cheap these days for new drugs. Lots of companies spend more money without any results.

> Do a *real* risk analysis and allow dangerous drugs for serious illnesses to be trialled much more quickly and with far fewer self-defeating safeguards - if I stand a 10% chance of dying from the illness, and a 1% chance of dying from the drug, guess which one I'm going to choose!
Such regulations are already in place. Critical drugs can be fast-tracked by FDA and approved even if significant side-effects are present.

It still doesn't help a lot. Clinical tests are not just a formality to get an approval - a lot of drugs (50% is a commonly cited number) fail during the tests.

> And lastly, maybe allow companies to carve out research niches as "protected areas" - if a company does "blue-sky" research into a drug family, then they get exclusive rights for say 10 years after the drug gets FDA (or equivalent) approval.
That is called 'a patent'.

> But at the end of the day, while your figures may be impressive, you still haven't provided any evidence that that research is value for money. All the evidence says that, even measured in $Billions, most pharma research isn't!
Can you provide actual examples of pharma research? I do, since we work with drug discovery companies.

The amount of money spent on 'useless' research is pretty much zero. Almost all of the R&D is spent on serious diseases. And pharma companies actually spend more on R&D than just about any other industry.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 25, 2014 12:19 UTC (Wed) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (2 responses)

Do you also have numbers for how much is spent on advertising? I remember how many ads there were for drugs years ago and I can only assume it has gotten worse. I guess the target audience is hypochondriacs since if the things they talk about are half as bad as they make them seem, why would have not already seen a doctor?

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 25, 2014 14:29 UTC (Wed) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] (1 responses)

I believe the US-style drugs advertising setup is about getting someone who's on your competitor's drug (or a generic drug) to pester their doctor for a prescription for your New! Innovative! Shiny! (still in patent) drug.

Some other countries (my own among them) prohibit pharmaceutical companies from advertising their prescription-only drugs to the general public.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 25, 2014 14:32 UTC (Wed) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

Well, except for the drugs for rare diseases, there are usually off-brand versions which are a fraction of the price of the name-brand drug (and the same active ingredients). Be sure to ask if there's an off-brand version of things from your doctor when getting prescriptions.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 25, 2014 22:07 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (3 responses)

>> then they get exclusive rights for say 10 years after the drug gets FDA (or equivalent) approval.
> That is called 'a patent'.

Actually, it isn't. Or rather, the problem is that the protection granted by current patents is pretty poor - if your patent lasts 17 years from publication, and FDA trials take 15 years, then your protected period is 2 years ...

> Can you provide actual examples of pharma research? I do, since we work with drug discovery companies.

Not off the top of my head. But I have a strong personal interest in this field, and all the stuff I've seen says that the majority of Pharma R&D is minor variations on old drugs. Oh - and I get the impression you are in Eastern Europe? The proportion of R&D spent on blue-sky research is much higher in Europe that it is in America, as far as I can make out ...

And if you work with drug discovery companies, does that mean you're being fed a filtered view? Or do you personally actively pick up on anything you come across in the specialist or general media?

One of my favourite examples - aspirin. Which, because it's LONG out of patent, has only recently made a comeback as a drug for treating heart attacks, despite its proven ability to save lives and aid recovery. If your first heart attack kills you, it's not much use, true. But many (30-40%) of heart attacks follow a double-whammy pattern, a minor initial attack and a fatal big one several hours later. Take aspirin after the first attack and the second never happens. And your chances of full recovery from the first attack are much enhanced.

And, following the antics of NICE (the UK drug prescribing authority), it certainly seems as though there is an awful lot of anti-generic pressure in the industry as a whole. NICE has a habit of pushing for generics (not surprisingly) and there is a massive pushback. That said, my wife is chronically ill, and we make a point of requesting specific drugs - that happen to be patented. Not because we believe patented to be better, but generics are subtly different and have been widely reported as causing havoc with the drugs regime. It's change we don't want, not being pro/anti generics. The big problem with generics is that every time you get a new supply of drugs, the specific version can change with all the subtle differences that implies :-(

Cheers,
Wol

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 25, 2014 22:25 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (2 responses)

> Actually, it isn't. Or rather, the problem is that the protection granted by current patents is pretty poor - if your patent lasts 17 years from publication, and FDA trials take 15 years, then your protected period is 2 years ...
It's close to 7-10 years. Typical time from the initial drug development to marketing is 10 years. Significantly extending the protection period won't generate much additional income, but it will destroy the generics market.

> Not off the top of my head. But I have a strong personal interest in this field, and all the stuff I've seen says that the majority of Pharma R&D is minor variations on old drugs.
Totally and insanely incorrect. Most of R&D is done on _totally_ _new_ areas. Tweaking old drugs is simply not profitable for large-scale R&D, because old drugs already work.

Sometimes companies foray into areas covered with existing drugs and most of the time it ends badly. The most notable example are anti-blood-clotting drugs - there are no new drugs after tens of billions of dollars spent on their development.

>Oh - and I get the impression you are in Eastern Europe?
Our company is distributed between continents, but our customers are almost all in the US.

>The proportion of R&D spent on blue-sky research is much higher in Europe that it is in America, as far as I can make out ...
Nope. Pharma companies trail only silicon companies in the amount of R&D - universally. Simply because pharma companies have to innovate or die: http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2009/07/08/how_much_...

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 26, 2014 10:30 UTC (Thu) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]

> The most notable example are anti-blood-clotting drugs - there are no new
> drugs after tens of billions of dollars spent on their development.

Hmm. What about rivaroxaban? That's been getting regulatory approval within the last five years; do you not classify that as "new"?

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 26, 2014 10:47 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Can I add drugs for Parkinsons to the list of "nothing new in years"? But there's plenty of new "variations on a theme".

The only real *new* drug is Levodopa, which was discovered in the 1960s. To the best of my knowledge ALL of the long-term drugs for Parkinsons are variants on it. But Levodopa is now deprecated (because it's out of patent ...)

And on this particular example I have first hand experience :-(

Cheers,
Wol

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 22, 2014 20:47 UTC (Sun) by Seegras (guest, #20463) [Link]

> The original slide switch was patented around 300 years ago in England.

Ah, by the way, [citation needed]

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 6:35 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (31 responses)

'Slide to unlock' switch is a distinct device that simply happens to be implemented in software. It's not an abstract idea, so it can be patented. An abstract idea would be something like 'an apparatus to unlock a mobile device based on user actions'.

Of course, slide switch a novel device so the patent might be rejected on these grounds. And this case also doesn't say anything about "ON A COMPUTER!!!" loophole for concrete devices.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 16:25 UTC (Fri) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (30 responses)

No, the "slide to unlock" *switch* is a physical device which was already patented some 300 years ago. The "slide to unlock" *widget* is software form of a mathematical function mapping a sequence of numerical inputs from a touch input device to a set of RGB pixels on a display device plus a boolean "unlock" output, with the net effect of *simulating* a "slide to unlock" switch. The patent in question attempts to claim the abstract concept of simulating a "slide to unlock" switch as a means of unlocking a computing device. It's abstract because they're trying to patent the goal itself, not a particular way of accomplishing it.

Software describes the desired relationship between the inputs and the outputs--it's always a representation of the goal, never an implementation. A particular physical device which implemented the relationships described by the software would not be abstract. However, when the device consists of a general-purpose computer, that is simply using an existing device for the purpose it was designed for: turning physical state into numerical inputs, applying the software to those inputs, and turning the outputs back into physical state. The combination of computer and software is concrete, but also obvious.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 16:50 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (28 responses)

From the point of view of patent attorneys, a software simulation of a device is still a device.

Argument that software is pure math doesn't have merit from the courts' point of view. For example, you can define physical objects as a set of data points and then print them on 3D printers. That doesn't give you a 'get out of jail free' card to print patented objects.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 17:53 UTC (Fri) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (4 responses)

> From the point of view of patent attorneys, a software simulation of a device is still a device.

From the point of view of a self-interested patent attorney, all patents are valid. The only guaranteed winners in patent litigation are the lawyers, so the more patents the better. Fortunately, the Supreme Court disagrees. This ruling explicitly states that an abstract concept "implemented on a computer" or "stored on a hard drive" is still an abstract concept, and not patent-eligible. A simulation is nothing more or less than a set of mathematical formulas defining relationships between mathematical objects; it doesn't get much more abstract than that.

> For example, you can define physical objects as a set of data points and then print them on 3D printers. That doesn't give you a 'get out of jail free' card to print patented objects.

You're glossing over the distinction between a design and an actual, physical object. The patented objects are physical, not just an abstract set of data points. The design (in STL or g-code or similar) is abstract. You don't patent the blueprints, you patent the thing you build from the blueprints. You can infringe on a patent by creating an object with a 3D printer, but simply modeling the object on a computer (or on paper) would not infringe. A 3D printer takes an abstract design and uses it as instructions to turn filament or powder into a physical object, much like a computer takes abstract software and uses it to turn physical inputs into physical outputs.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 18:18 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (2 responses)

>You're glossing over the distinction between a design and an actual, physical object.

Slide-to-unlock software switch is a physical object and so it's patentable. It even uses a specialized input interface (touchscreen). You need better reasons why it's not patentable.

>You can infringe on a patent by creating an object with a 3D printer, but simply modeling the object on a computer (or on paper) would not infringe.
It's also true with slide-to-unlock. You are free to develop 'blueprints' (source code) for it.

However, you are not free to produce and sell actual devices with it.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 18:29 UTC (Fri) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (1 responses)

> Slide-to-unlock software switch is a physical object and so it's patentable.

That doesn't even begin to make sense. It's software--you said so yourself--ergo it isn't a physical object. It's a simulation, a mathematical model of the relationships between the various parts of a physical device.

> It's also true with slide-to-unlock. You are free to develop 'blueprints' (source code) for it. ... However, you are not free to produce and sell actual devices with it.

At least you agree that no patent can prevent you from developing the software. Similarly, patents would also not prevent you from selling the blueprints, so you are free to both develop the software and distribute it to others.

The court specifically ruled that "abstract concept on a computer" is still an abstract concept and thus not patent-eligible. That means you can't claim simply running the software on a general-purpose computer. Ergo, anyone is free to develop software, distribute it, and run it on a computer, or allow others to do so. That pretty much covers everything relevant to software patents.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 18:39 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> That doesn't even begin to make sense. It's software--you said so yourself--ergo it isn't a physical object. It's a simulation, a mathematical model of the relationships between the various parts of a physical device.
Its implementation ('embodiment' in patent lingo) is a physical object. USPTO agrees that it's enough to make it patentable.

BTW, I'm firmly against software patents. But it helps knowing the enemy.

> At least you agree that no patent can prevent you from developing the software.
Incorrect. Patent law allows development of patented objects only in a very narrow range of cases. You can't even do it for personal use, only for non-commercial research and/or education.

> Similarly, patents would also not prevent you from selling the blueprints, so you are free to both develop the software and distribute it to others.
Nope. See above.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 21, 2014 19:18 UTC (Sat) by xtifr (guest, #143) [Link]

From the point of view of a self-interested patent attorney, all patents are valid.
Except those self-interested patent attorneys who specialize in fighting bad patents and getting them overturned. Which, considering the huge mess of the patent landscape these days, and the number of patent trolls out there, pretty much has to be its own specialty by now.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 18:17 UTC (Fri) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link] (20 responses)

The switch itself isn't patent eligible (it went out of patent 300 years ago), it's the on the computer part that made it patent eligible. The court has ruled that "on a computer" doesn't make something eligible for a patent by itself.

The biggest problem I see for patents going forward is that it's going to be pretty easy to show that almost all software patents are patents on the abstract idea itself (with a few exceptions). Almost none of the software patents I've every looked at are patenting a specific method, they are patenting the idea itself, not the implementation. Very few ever show the code that would be necessary for it to a patent on a specific implementation rather than the abstract idea itself.

For the Apple slide to unlock patent to be valid IMO it would need to be a patent on the very specific implementation including the code itself. Without the specific implementation details it's a patent on the abstract idea of a 300 year old switch on a computer. In the apple case Apple claims patents on slide to unlock software switches on other phones, even though how it's implemented is completely different (different code). The different implementations could be drastically different to the point of being a different method altogether, so when Apple claims it violates their patent without implementation details they are pointing out that they have claimed the idea itself.

This is one of the main points the anti-software patent groups have been trying to point out. That is that the 'on a computer' in most patents is just patenting an idea but claiming the specific implementation is the "on a computer" part. Not a specific computer, but all general purpose computing systems. There is nothing specific about that. And I believe this ruling is going to force the courts to find that most software patents are nothing more than abstract ideas.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 18:36 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (19 responses)

> The switch itself isn't patent eligible (it went out of patent 300 years ago), it's the on the computer part that made it patent eligible. The court has ruled that "on a computer" doesn't make something eligible for a patent by itself.
No, it hasn't. "ON A COMPUTER!!!" loophole is still very much there.

The court has ruled that simply taking an abstract idea and putting it on a computer does not make a patentable invention. The key here is that the idea _in_ _itself_ is not patentable.

So a system for hedging bets ON A COMPUTER!!! is not patentable because the idea of hedging bets is itself abstract. But a sliding switch is a patentable object (even though its patent has expired long ago) and its implementation on a computer is still considered novel.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 20:18 UTC (Fri) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (18 responses)

> But a sliding switch is a patentable object (even though its patent has expired long ago) and its implementation on a computer is still considered novel.

There is no such thing as "a sliding switch implemented on a computer". "Cyberspace" isn't a real place; it's an abstraction. Your computer does not contain a pocket universe behind the screen where virtual objects like sliding switches live. I blame all those sci-fi stories about immersive virtual reality; they give people the wrong idea about how computers actually work, and encourage reasoning by analogy. Analogies make useful illustrations but terrible arguments.

A sliding switch is a physical device with actual moving parts. The particular arrangement of physical parts needed to implement a switch is the subject of the patent. The closest you can get to that on a computer is a mathematical model or blueprint, neither of which is patent-eligible.

Including a computer as a component of some machine or manufacturing process does not render the entire machine or process patent-ineligible, and the court was careful to avoid saying that it did. However, infringement would consist in duplicating the entire machine or process, not just the software running on a computer. In essence, one should treat the computer/software combination as a black box. We don't care about what's inside, just that it plays the designated role in the overall design.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 20:46 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

In essence, one should treat the computer/software combination as a black box. We don't care about what's inside, just that it plays the designated role in the overall design.

Ok, Got that.

Your computer does not contain a pocket universe behind the screen where virtual objects like sliding switches live.

Of course it does! If we want to look on the computer/software then sliding bolt is basically the same as real, physical bolt. It looks like a physical object did (or at least close enough), it behaves like a physical object (at least it tries too), so why couldn't we treat it as a physical object in a cyberspace?

Basically the question is: what separates bolt on the iPhone screen from physical bolt patentened 300 years ago if we treat "computer/software combination as a black box"? They are not completely identical but that's because one is done from metal alloy and other is done from shapes and textures. But that's the difference between cyberspace and real space, nothing more, nothing less.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 21:53 UTC (Fri) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

>> Your computer does not contain a pocket universe behind the screen where virtual objects like sliding switches live.
> Of course it does!

I'm not quite sure how seriously I should take a comment trying to claim that an abstract concept and a physical object are equivalent. That's rather like seeing no difference between a real object and a photograph of the object.

> It looks like a physical object did (or at least close enough), it behaves like a physical object (at least it tries too), so why couldn't we treat it as a physical object in a cyberspace?

Your idea of "close enough" isn't very demanding if you think a pattern of RGB pixels on a flat touchscreen "looks like" or "behaves like" a physical object. From one point of view, perhaps, and only if you don't look very closely or try to interact with it as you would a physical object. The means of interaction are somewhat familiar (apply pressure and slide your finger to change the state), but the similarity ends there. What you're interacting with is the touchscreen, a physical object in its own right; the slider is just an illusion, and a very shallow one at that.

> Basically the question is: what separates bolt on the iPhone screen from physical bolt patentened 300 years ago if we treat "computer/software combination as a black box"?

Well, one is a physical bolt, and the other (sans the black box) mainly consists of a touchscreen which can digitize arbitrary 2D input and output arbitrary video. It might be better to ask what they have in common.

> They are not completely identical but that's because one is done from metal alloy and other is done from shapes and textures. But that's the difference between cyberspace and real space, nothing more, nothing less.

In other words, the difference is nothing more or less than *everything*. Even in the physical world, something "done from metal alloy" and something "done from" smoke are going to be so different as to be incomparable. Something that exists only as a transient pattern of electrical signals--not significantly different from thoughts in someone's head, in the end--has even less in common.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 20:51 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (15 responses)

> A sliding switch is a physical device with actual moving parts. The particular arrangement of physical parts needed to implement a switch is the subject of the patent. The closest you can get to that on a computer is a mathematical model or blueprint, neither of which is patent-eligible.
No. With a computer I have an object - a visually distinct arrangement of pixels that responds to certain actions in a certain way. It turns out that this combination of objects and their behaviors is patentable.

The fact that it's also an array of electric charges is irrelevant. Just as it is irrelevant that a physical lock is an array of atoms.

And the way you implement that 'virtual lock' is also irrelevant (since it's not specified in the patent). Just as it's irrelevant whether you're using a chisel or laser cutter to make a physical sliding lock.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 22, 2014 23:25 UTC (Sun) by fest3er (guest, #60379) [Link] (14 responses)

No, on a computer, you have intangible, virtual things called 'bits'; your 'object' is naught but a collection of bits. Intangible, virtual things are ideas. Ideas cannot be patented. Only tangible, physical things that do something real and physical or cause something real and physical to happen can be patented.

Print out a program's source code. Lay it on the floor. Wait for it to do something or cause something to happen. You'll die first.

Oh, wait. It's source code. So compile it. Place the drive (rotating or flash) that contains the compiled program on the floor and wait for it to do something. You'll still die waiting.

Like words printed on a piece of paper, software is an intangible idea. You cannot touch it. Like a novel, you can only imagine it. Without something real and physical to follow its instructions, software can do nothing.

Patents apply to real, physical, tangible things that do something real and tangible. Copyrights apply to virtual, non-physical, intangible ideas that can only be imagined. Software lies in the realm of ideas. And like all ideas, software can be copyrighted. Not patented.

The software that computes the cure time of rubber based on temperature measurements cannot be patented because it is merely an idea. A device that measures the temperature of the curing rubber and turns off the heating element once curing is calculated to be complete can be patented because it does something (turns off the heat).

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 23, 2014 0:26 UTC (Mon) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

> The software that computes the cure time of rubber based on temperature measurements cannot be patented because it is merely an idea. A device that measures the temperature of the curing rubber and turns off the heating element once curing is calculated to be complete can be patented because it does something (turns off the heat).

If you read the Alice decision, you will see that it's more than just "turning of the heat", it's that the process did something that hadn't been possible before, measuring the temperature inside the mold on a continuing basis to calculate when the curing was completed.

There are other cases where the SC has rules that merely using a computer to set off an alarm when something crosses a threshold is not patent eligible.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 23, 2014 4:24 UTC (Mon) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (12 responses)

I don't think bits are intangible, virtual or only existing in the realm of ideas, bits actually are electro-magnetic states of real materials, the complexity of the machine around them and the fact that we as people ascribe them meaning does not change the fact that everything which happens on a computer, on the internet, happens in the real world, not some imaginary realm of pure math.

This keeps coming up where people who should really know better keep treating computers like magic wizard boxes rather than the real physical machines they are. The fact that our computers are transistor based and not gear based like a fire control computer or made of brass like the difference engine does not change this fact.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 23, 2014 15:04 UTC (Mon) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (11 responses)

> bits actually are electro-magnetic states of real materials

Bits may be *represented by* electromagnetic states of real materials, but that isn't what they *are*. The meaning we ascribe to bits is independent of how they're represented, whether through electrical charge, magnetism, phases of matter, optics, or even mechanical cogs and gears. A bit is an abstract logical 0 or 1; the physical form is an irrelevant implementation detail.

Under your interpretation, words like "intangible" or "virtual" or "abstract" would have no meaning whatsoever, since all ideas are ultimately represented in some physical form, whether that be sound waves in air, graphite patterns on paper, or electrochemical signals in someone's brain. The distinction isn't between things that have a physical form and things that don't, but rather between things where the physical form is important and others where it is merely one of many equivalent representations.

> The fact that our computers are transistor based and not gear based like a fire control computer or made of brass like the difference engine does not change this fact.

Indeed. The software remains pure math and not patent-eligible regardless of the specific makeup of the general-purpose computer that evaluates it. Whether made of brass gears or transistors, it remains a machine specifically designed to evaluate arbitrary inputs according to software instructions--*any* inputs, and *any* software, all with the same machine. Changing the inputs or the software does not transform it into a different machine. It *replaces* other special-purpose computing devices; it doesn't *become* them.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 23, 2014 18:39 UTC (Mon) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (10 responses)

This is largely a semantic discussion with a lot of opinions which are hard to pin down to anything concrete. The hair I am trying to split is that there may be a fundamental difference between an ethereal "idea", say written down in a book, and an actual implementation in a machine, even if the hardware is a general purpose reprogrammable part, the whole machine when it operates on a particular task includes the state of the electrical signals, etc. which is not an intangible. So sound in the air or graphite on paper is not a machine, electrochemical signals in a brain might be but we consider people separately and try not to punish thought-crime even though they are made out of stuff.

> Changing the inputs or the software does not transform it into a different machine. It *replaces* other special-purpose computing devices; it doesn't *become* them.

I don't think that is an unassailable point, that is an assumption and depends on semantics and belief, others with different assumptions could legitimately come to different logical conclusions. If you want to understand other people and other arguments you have to be able to separate out what is real beyond debate and what the assumptions are.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 23, 2014 20:56 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (8 responses)

The point is, I think (and I'm sure people will come up with counter-examples), that if the *same* *concept* has multiple physical implementations, then that concept is abstract.

For example, the byte 11010001 may be represented in voltage as +5,+5,0,+5,0,0,0,+5. Or it may be represented in magnetism by NNSNSSSN.

Thing is, we're separating the *idea* from the *implementation*. And no disrespect to the readership here, but in my interest in "how people learn", I came across the interesting facts that (1) people aren't capable of separating concept from implementation (ie they don't understand the abstract) until they are about 14. Even more interesting, (2) it may be OVER HALF of people *never* *make* that transition, ie the majority of people are incapable of abstract thought!

Unfortunately, I get the impression that a fair few people here haven't made the transition ...

And what do you do when (as I think is the *normal* *real* *life* *behaviour*) that byte above is represented as SNSSSNNS ? Done that way because it seems to be less error prone. But what's a 1 and what's a 0?

Cheers,
Wol

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 1:44 UTC (Tue) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (1 responses)

And if I understand correctly patent law makes a clear distinction between idea and implementation which is how they claim that something can be patented when it is run. The idea of an algorithm being distinct from an actual implementation running on hardware doing work.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 18:31 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

I believe you're correct - patent law does make that distinction.

But the patent lawyers believe that using a computer (a previously patented device) to carry out a list of instructions (an unpatentable "recipe", or program) creates a new, patentable machine.

Notwithstanding patent and case law to the contrary ...

Cheers,
Wol

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 11:43 UTC (Tue) by Asebe8zu (subscriber, #24600) [Link] (5 responses)

This is interesting.

It reminds me about the distinction between freedom of expression and expressions you don't approve of.

Do you have links to information on this transition to abstract thought?

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 18:29 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (4 responses)

Unfortunately I don't have any links. If you can find any information on childhood brain development and at what age children are typically capable of learning certain concepts, then I'm sure you'll find it.

One of my strong memories (which influences the way I teach my grandson) is of my father trying to teach me about negative numbers. It was just completely over my head. And the way I used to read his "Understanding Science" magazines because they had lovely pretty pictures and I loved reading and the language they used, but a lot of what they were trying to teach I couldn't understand.

Then, at the right time at school, all these things were taught, and I remembered back to all this stuff, and I just knew what the teacher was teaching. A classic example is valency. I believe it usually took a week or two for the topic to really sink in (I know various people in my class had horrible trouble with it). It took me 30 seconds, to remember back to the articles in those magazines, and say to myself "Oh!! THAT'S what it was trying to say!!".

So when I'm explaining something to my grandson, I never worry if he understands me or not (of course I want him to! :-) But if he's interested and understands, he'll come back at me, and if it's over his head I trust he'll remember and come back to me when he's ready.

Cheers,
Wol

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 20:44 UTC (Tue) by Asebe8zu (subscriber, #24600) [Link]

Thank you for the explanation. I will try to remember this when I explain things to my son.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 21:03 UTC (Tue) by Asebe8zu (subscriber, #24600) [Link]

Did some searching and found that these ideas originate from Jean Piaget who studied this extensively. He found that the ability to perform formal operations as he called it develops in the early teens. However, it does not necessarily develop at all. Some later studies indeed found this ability in only a fraction of high school seniors.
See http://www.edpsycinteractive.org/topics/cognition/piaget....

Cheers

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 25, 2014 18:18 UTC (Wed) by dashesy (guest, #74652) [Link] (1 responses)

Interesting, I remember problem with negative numbers too (subtraction was fine). Our teacher started the numbers by associating them with apples, I could easily grasp rational and real numbers (which were thought later than negative numbers), but I could not imagine having -3 apples. I still change a + -b to a - b in my head.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 25, 2014 20:24 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

I still change a + -b to a - b in my head.

LOL. This is exactly how negative numbers are usually “made” (Remember? “God made natural numbers; all else is the work of man”). You claim that “integer” is pair of natural numbers, then you can easily explain how all operations work (each iteger could be represented by many equivalent pairs, but this is not a problem: the same problem exist with rationals and it does not hurt us, right?). In particular {a, b} is the same as {b, a}. Easy and simple…

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 24, 2014 3:10 UTC (Tue) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

> ... even if the hardware is a general purpose reprogrammable part, the whole machine when it operates on a particular task includes the state of the electrical signals, etc. which is not an intangible.

On this much, at least, I think we can agree. While the data (including the software) is representation-agnostic and thus intangible, an operating computer is a tangible thing, including the states of all the signals inside it at any given time.

Fortunately, the court seems to agree with me that this makes exactly zero difference in regard to patent-eligibility. A claim for an abstract business method on a general-purpose computer is a transparent attempt to claim the abstract business method; the use of a computer to speed up evaluation of the business-method algorithm is incidental and obvious. If future courts show the slightest tendency toward consistency, they'll apply the same logic against attempts to patent other kinds of algorithms.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 19:07 UTC (Fri) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link] (1 responses)

Patent were meant to protect process to product object, not object themselves.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 20:05 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

Only “a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away” that was true. Today in US it's aboutnew and useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof. Composition of matter is not a process.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 22, 2014 20:53 UTC (Sun) by Seegras (guest, #20463) [Link]

> No, the "slide to unlock" *switch* is a physical device which was already
> patented some 300 years ago.

As mentioned [citation needed]

> The "slide to unlock" *widget* is software form of a mathematical
> function mapping a sequence of numerical inputs from a touch input device
> to a set of RGB pixels on a display device plus a boolean "unlock"
> output, with the net effect of *simulating* a "slide to unlock" switch.

Alright, you tell me, this is illegal to patent in the first place, because it's math:: http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s2106.html

The physical device itself is also obvious, and covered by prior art. Namely there's an Egyptian hieroglyph that appears at the latest in 1290 B.C. depicting it.

Gene, and the case generally

Posted Jun 20, 2014 2:24 UTC (Fri) by louie (guest, #3285) [Link] (5 responses)

I'd love to agree with Gene, but his analysis here, like most of his analysis, is wrong. Perhaps this is his stopped-clock moment, but the court is pretty clear that there are plenty of software patents that should exist - it just doesn't say where the line is. But Gene and others will be back aggressively pushing the line soon enough.

(Which isn't to say it is a ruling that is bad for the open source community. It just isn't what we might have hoped for. As the court put it today: "In any event, we need not labor to delimit the precise contours of the 'abstract ideas' category in this case." Which means someone else will do that labor, expensively and over a period of years.)

Gene, and the case generally

Posted Jun 20, 2014 3:02 UTC (Fri) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]

> the court is pretty clear that there are plenty
> of software patents that should exist

I don't read it that way. The Court saying a few times that "XYZ is invalid, but ABC is different". They don't say ABC would be patent-eligible. They just say it's not the same thing.

So that can mean the Court is just leaving that for another day. Maybe Thomas just couldn't get agreement this time, so it got punted.

I see nothing in this ruling that stops us from getting further victories next time.

(And yes, I think Gene just blew a gasket today. Still. They're fun quotes.)

Gene, and the case generally

Posted Jun 20, 2014 7:39 UTC (Fri) by Otus (subscriber, #67685) [Link]

> [T]he court is pretty clear that there are plenty of software patents that should exist - it just doesn't say where the line is.

That's not how I read it. To me is seems that all the hedging has to do with making sure they don't imply that all patents *on computers* are invalid. Just those moving an abstract idea into software.

Also, none of it says something is patentable, merely leaves it outside the area they mark "definitely not patentable".

But IANAL etc.

Gene, and the case generally

Posted Jun 23, 2014 21:03 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (2 responses)

> but the court is pretty clear that there are plenty of software patents that should exist - it just doesn't say where the line is

Is the court clear on that? As I understood from previous rulings discussed on Groklaw, the court couldn't get its head round "all software patents are patents on maths" (or didn't try) and as such was simply saying "some software patents MAY be valid, but ones like this aren't". It couldn't get its head round "all software patents are like these ones, therefore they are all invalid".

It wasn't (sadly) closing the door on software patents, but it wasn't legitimating them either.

Cheers,
Wol

Gene, and the case generally

Posted Jun 29, 2014 20:35 UTC (Sun) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (1 responses)

Sounds like the smart thing to do: rule on the cases before them and don't try to make decisions about issues for which no evidence has been provided.

Changing laws by court case is the long, slow method. The only way to get anywhere faster is to involve the (infamously dysfunctional US) legislature.

In the mean time, are there any running cases involving compression algorithms? Because they would get to the heart of the issue.

Gene, and the case generally

Posted Jun 30, 2014 2:06 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> Changing laws by court case is the long, slow method. The only way to get anywhere faster is to involve the (infamously dysfunctional US) legislature.

You might get the Congresscritters to *do* something, but it might have so many riders and loopholes so as to be ineffective. It could also turn on you and explicitly make the bad stuff legal (or the good stuff illegal) depending on lobbying. The courts may be slow, but I think I'd trust them more to get a better overall, long-term result.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 14:57 UTC (Fri) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

Having read Gene Quinn this doesn't change my opinions in the matter at all. Quinn claims the entire Supreme Court don't understand the law, and that it would be practical to write traditional software patents by expressing them in terms of "gates" and similar electronic components, which is laughable. Why should we take his pronouncements seriously?

Quinn's ability to weasel things past USPTO employees is not relevant to either the larger legal landscape or the nitty gritty of our profession. He's a parasite. I would take comfort if changes to the law literally drive him out of business, but I am not heartened by him whining about stuff.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 20, 2014 18:49 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (2 responses)

I must have done something right. Gene Quinn has banned me from posting comments on his site. :)

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 21, 2014 13:30 UTC (Sat) by shmget (guest, #58347) [Link]

Making sens is a banish-able offense in the Patent-Attorney world.

don't get too excited

Posted Jun 21, 2014 17:35 UTC (Sat) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link]

If he was consistent, he should ban himself for lying about mathematics.

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 19, 2014 17:14 UTC (Thu) by theophrastus (guest, #80847) [Link] (4 responses)

I'm a dreadful cynic about the current "highest court in the land". So much so, if they appear to have done something that is correct, i'll assume they didn't actually do what they appeared to have done, or, more optimistically, they don't understand what it is they might've done.

that is, we really need Groklaw to explain this.

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 19, 2014 18:53 UTC (Thu) by fredex (subscriber, #11727) [Link] (3 responses)

True, I'd love to see PJ's thoughts. (we miss you, PJ!)

But whenever Gene Quinn feels distressed about a patent ruling, then it must be a good day.

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 20, 2014 1:38 UTC (Fri) by Arker (guest, #14205) [Link] (1 responses)

Yeah as an interested layman Gene's post on this was when I started to believe this is the real deal. He's always cool. Not today. He called out the Supremes pretty rudely, multiple times. And was banning people for mentioning that software is math in the replies too. Think he's off his nut. This has to be good news.

Gene Quirr

Posted Jun 20, 2014 9:01 UTC (Fri) by gvy (guest, #11981) [Link]

I think some "Congratulations! -- a software developer with math school diploma" should be fine. :]

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 21, 2014 3:46 UTC (Sat) by zeekec (subscriber, #2414) [Link]

We need a spotlight that projects a red dress onto the night sky!

Headline is wrong

Posted Jun 19, 2014 17:23 UTC (Thu) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] (1 responses)

I read a bit of the decision. It does not rule against "software patents". It rules against patents of the form "do these steps that are already well-known in the field, but do them on a computer".

Headline isn't wrong

Posted Jun 19, 2014 19:12 UTC (Thu) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]

It didn't rule against *all* software patents, but it's not wrong to say it ruled against software patents.

Some (and seemingly plenty of) software patent have definitely been struck down by this ruling.

Your reading is at the other end, the narrowest interpretation.

Check out footnote 3. It guts the bit of the Diamond v. Diehr ruling which the pro-patent camp always used (you have to take the computer and the software "as a whole" - but this ruling says that "as a whole" means read all the claims together, not the components of the invention).

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 19, 2014 18:39 UTC (Thu) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link] (1 responses)

I suspect it took 10 seconds to reach this decision, and two months to come up with a ruling that didn't overtly insult the Federal Circuit for needing detailed instructions on something so obvious.

AFAICT, they don't rule on whether it would be possible for a patent on software to pass the test as stated, but the infamous software patents I can think of wouldn't be allowed. I think they've avoided ruling on whether their could be a patent that would arguably be a software patent but where this reasoning wouldn't apply. But it really looks like this ruling is pretty much a cut-and-paste template for ruling invalid any patent on a program for a general-purpose computer.

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 20, 2014 1:02 UTC (Fri) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link]

As a general rule almost every court in the land knows how it's going to rule before anything is even submitted to them. They seek justification in their ruling for what they already decided. This is one of the first lessons they teach in lawschool, they assign the student lawyer an opinion and tell them to justify it using the existing law and rulings.

Scalia is renowned for this, he routinely quotes dictionaries from as far back as 1777 to justify some opinion's he's prepared in the effort to redefine the meanings of words because the law doesn't support what he wants to rule. Fortunately it finally appears we have a Justice (Kagen) that is going to challenge him on rewriting the definitions of words.

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 19, 2014 19:28 UTC (Thu) by SEJeff (guest, #51588) [Link] (1 responses)

I can't wait for the flood of challenges this results in for obvious software patents. It would not be so great to work for the USPTO.

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 19, 2014 19:47 UTC (Thu) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]

More joyous music from Gene Quinn:

Am I overblowing this? I hope so, but I would bet just about anything that I’m not. The Patent Office will simply plow through their backlog in hundreds of thousands of applications by issuing an insurmountable rejection of all software claims written as methods and systems by saying “see Alice v. CLS Bank.”

(Quinn, writing in the comments section of his article I linked above.)

Abolishing many software patents and the US gets a functional patent office? I've never enjoyed Quinn's writings so much!

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 19, 2014 21:58 UTC (Thu) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] (2 responses)

Now that our US overlords found some sense, I'm wondering what the ruling elite here in Oz will do about software patents. My guess is, probably nothing or less, given the idiotic course they've been on regarding copyright "piracy" and other "intellectual property" crap.

If it wasn't sad, it would be rather funny. On the one hand, these supposed "conservatives" and/or even "libertarians" tell us they want to get government out of our lives. On the other, they use laws to entrench privilege, precisely by doing the opposite. And if strengthening private monopolies through government intervention isn't it, then I don't know what is.

Nobody ever goes back to ask the basic question: how much of all these laws do we really need?

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 19, 2014 22:28 UTC (Thu) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] (1 responses)

> what the ruling elite here in Oz will do

And what will the riffraff do? Today's ruling is good news from the elites, but the 99% can't usually rely on the elites to fix their problems.

Ben Sturmfels managed to do great things there in recent years in Australia. He didn't do it alone, but he sure accomplished a lot for one man. Just another software developer who decided to stop waiting for someone to fix the problem.

The info on the wiki hasn't been updated in a while, but there're still good starting points there: http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Australia

US Supreme Court rules against software patents

Posted Jun 19, 2014 23:34 UTC (Thu) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

> And what will the riffraff do?

Well, they elect guys like this into the ruling elite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8gDKWPXPRg


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